UBC 2nd iteration Internal Medicine ROS

[thisismee]

12 minutes ago, PetiteAgour said:

Not seeing how it affects CMG spots other than the fact that we have the manpower to train more residents, but not the funding from the Canadian government  I feel bad for both the CMG's and Saudi resident. Imagine training for 5 years, being used as free labour by the Canadian system, making friends in the program, moving family here, committing years of research and people still treat you like an outsider. I wonder how they select these candidates and if there is a pathway to citizenship?

I wonder if by cutting these spots, Canada would be forced to fund more CMG spots as they'd need to compensate for the work of those residents somehow.

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

2 hours ago, PetiteAgour said:

I feel bad for both the CMG's and Saudi resident. Imagine training for 5 years, being used as free labour by the Canadian system, making friends in the program, moving family here, committing years of research and people still treat you like an outsider. I wonder how they select these candidates and if there is a pathway to citizenship?

Why would you feel bad for the Saudi resident?! They willingly chose to come to Canada. Most of them have already completed residency training and come here for a "chance" to live in Canada and complete the same residency for the second time... We should have zero remorse for them. They know the rules. 

What I find horrible is that if we look at orthopedics for example, the market is saturated, there are almost zero jobs in the country; however, we continue to train Saudi residents in orthopedics in Canada. Why?! It's beyond my understanding (well, $$$) and deeply concerning.

[Edict]

5 hours ago, psychiatry2017 said:

but the Saudi residents sign a contract with their countries, and go back to their home country right after their training. Their residency is funded by their country exclusively, by all means, they are like free labour for our Canadian hospitals. I don't think that they take  any CMG spots to be honest. 

They do occasionally get hired in Canada. I don't know how they do it, but there are definitely saudi residents who stay in Canada somehow. 

[psychiatry2017]

2 hours ago, PetiteAgour said:

Not seeing how it affects CMG spots other than the fact that we have the manpower to train more residents, but not the funding from the Canadian government  I feel bad for both the CMG's and Saudi resident. Imagine training for 5 years, being used as free labour by the Canadian system, making friends in the program, moving family here, committing years of research and people still treat you like an outsider. I wonder how they select these candidates and if there is a pathway to citizenship?

 

3 hours ago, 2018hopeful said:

Yes and no, I did an elective in Edmonton in neurology and found that a full half the residents were Saudi and a decent number were planning on staying in Canada after probably around 1/3 to 1/2

I have talked to quite a few Saudi residents training in different specialties, they have signed a legal contract with their country stating that they will return after residency+ fellowship, failure to do so will imply heavy financial penalty + and even more (legal??). I guess that there is a way going around the system, but my impression is that they are obliged to return to their country after training, and failure to do so will result in heavy consequences. 

They are not taking any CMG+ or IMG positions, as they are funded by their home country, those are the extra positions created exclusively for Saudi residents, same principle goes for clinical fellows (Hired by the hospital ).  

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

27 minutes ago, psychiatry2017 said:

They are not taking any CMG+ or IMG positions, as they are funded by their home country, those are the extra positions created exclusively for Saudi residents, same principle goes for clinical fellows (Hired by the hospital ).  

They are taking CMG positions. McGill dermatology is notorious for taking Saudi residents every year. They matriculate three dermatology residents every year and at least one of them each year is from Saudi Arabia.

Furhermore, nearly one third of the IM class is filled with Saudi residents.

[2018hopeful]

25 minutes ago, psychiatry2017 said:

 

I have talked to quite a few Saudi residents training in different specialties, they have signed a legal contract with their country stating that they will return after residency+ fellowship, failure to do so will imply heavy financial penalty + and even more (legal??). I guess that there is a way going around the system, but my impression is that they are obliged to return to their country after training, and failure to do so will result in heavy consequences. 

They are not taking any CMG+ or IMG positions, as they are funded by their home country, those are the extra positions created exclusively for Saudi residents, same principle goes for clinical fellows (Hired by the hospital ).  

N=6 at one site from what I saw. No idea on what their actual contracts were either. Two of them wanted their young children to come with them to Canada and mentioned it would be hard for them to go back after 4 years in Canada so I can't comment on intentions vs reality. One was from an absolutely loaded family (think sheik rich) and mentioned he wouldn't mind staying in Canada. This was several years ago so I'm unsure what happened to them since.

The reality for the program though is they have the bodies on the floor they need to run their program. That alone cuts down on the need for CMG residents

[JohnGrisham]

2 hours ago, Edict said:

They do occasionally get hired in Canada. I don't know how they do it, but there are definitely saudi residents who stay in Canada somehow. 

Agreed, but i would say the amount that "want to stay" or "planning to stay" is still more than those that ACTUALLY figure out how and end up staying. Anecdotally I was talking with one saudi resident who had the same thoughts, that they like Canada(they were a 3rd culture kid and hardly actually lived in Saudi)..however it was clear they didn't actually understand the implications and realize its not just that easy to "decide" they want to stay.   

I vaguely recall someone saying they aren't allowed to sit for the MCCQEs, as to prevent them from being able to get licensure. But i have no confirmation, as this was a vague recollection.

[hero147]

1 hour ago, JohnGrisham said:

Agreed, but i would say the amount that "want to stay" or "planning to stay" is still more than those that ACTUALLY figure out how and end up staying. Anecdotally I was talking with one saudi resident who had the same thoughts, that they like Canada(they were a 3rd culture kid and hardly actually lived in Saudi)..however it was clear they didn't actually understand the implications and realize its not just that easy to "decide" they want to stay.   

I vaguely recall someone saying they aren't allowed to sit for the MCCQEs, as to prevent them from being able to get licensure. But i have no confirmation, as this was a vague recollection.

I once met a second year Saudi resident who was studying for the MCCQE Part 2 so I am assuming he must've passed Part 1.

I actually haven't met any Saudis practicing in Canada after residency but have met many Saudi residents who have plans to stay in Canada after they finished.

[JohnGrisham]

Just now, hero147 said:

I once met a second year Saudi resident who was studying for the MCCQE Part 2 so I am assuming he must've passed Part 1.

I actually haven't met any Saudis practicing in Canada after residency but have met many Saudi residents who have plans to stay in Canada after they finished.

Its too bad no saudis are on these forums, or rather arent commenting. I cant imagine it would be not awkward asking these questions directly unless you know them closely and/or work with them.

[NLengr]

23 hours ago, hero147 said:

I once met a second year Saudi resident who was studying for the MCCQE Part 2 so I am assuming he must've passed Part 1.

I actually haven't met any Saudis practicing in Canada after residency but have met many Saudi residents who have plans to stay in Canada after they finished.

I know one who stayed. Did a surgical specialty, then two fellowships. Took a job in Ontario after. Not sure how he convinced the Saudi govt. to let him out of his contract but he did. 

Really nice guy and he really really dreaded the thought of going back to Saudi. 

[DermJuly2018PGY1]

15 minutes ago, NLengr said:

Really nice guy and he really really dreaded the thought of going back to Saudi. 

Why did he dread returning to Saudi?

[Snowmen]

13 hours ago, DermJuly2018PGY1 said:

Why did he dread returning to Saudi?

I don't know about you but I'd rather live in Canada than in the middle-east even though Saudi Arabia is probably one of the safer countries there. Extensive rights also are a pretty neat thing.

I guess money probably played a role as well (although western trained physicians are usually well-compensated in the petro-monarchies but maybe that doesn't apply to the Saudi ones even if they train here).

[ana_safavi]

On 4/7/2018 at 2:51 PM, PetiteAgour said:

Not seeing how it affects CMG spots other than the fact that we have the manpower to train more residents, but not the funding from the Canadian government  I feel bad for both the CMG's and Saudi resident. Imagine training for 5 years, being used as free labour by the Canadian system, making friends in the program, moving family here, committing years of research and people still treat you like an outsider. I wonder how they select these candidates and if there is a pathway to citizenship?

Yeah, the main issue is that it can affect the capacity of a program to take on learners (i.e. not enough preceptors/patients to go around). This was more a problem in the past, when most programs were actually at capacity. They no longer are. Now, it's funding that is almost always the limiting factor in number of residency spots.

I think I heard that the universities get exorbitant fees from the Saudi government, which (presumably) goes to supplement the learning experience for the CMGs in that program?

[NLengr]

On 08/04/2018 at 11:00 PM, DermJuly2018PGY1 said:

Why did he dread returning to Saudi?

He liked alcohol and freedom. His wife really preferred Canada. And his kids were canadian. 

[NeuroD]

15 minutes ago, NLengr said:

He liked alcohol and freedom. His wife really preferred Canada. And his kids were canadian. 

Same for a Saudi fellows I worked with in GI and neuro. Freedom, safety, future for their kids, and $$. They all said that technically it's not allowed, but everyone who really wants to stay figures out how to stay.

[medigeek]

On 3/14/2018 at 4:19 PM, 2ndroundthrowaway said:

The PD will tell you during the interview, but 

 

3 years ROS. You cannot subspecialize and will only do the 4 year program and train as GIM. The service areas depend on the year and there is no list, he did say they will probably be quite rural as the suburban spots are already filled. 

I don't understand ROS. Can't you simply open a practice in an area designated as underserved? Or do you have to be hired in very specific areas? I know in Ontario underserved is basically anything but Toronto/Ottawa which makes it quite easy but I always wondered if they wanted to hire only or let you open a practice anywhere you like. 

[JohnGrisham]

On 4/10/2018 at 5:27 PM, PhD2MD said:

Same for a Saudi fellows I worked with in GI and neuro. Freedom, safety, future for their kids, and $$. They all said that technically it's not allowed, but everyone who really wants to stay figures out how to stay.

Maybe someone needs to look into this then. Since I don't think we should be allowing a backdoor into Canada via a pay-to-play system. It initial design and intent was to share knowledge/expertise and have people go back to their home country. If in current times this is not the actual reality, then we are effectively letting a foreign gov't pay for their students to come train and then have them stay...and we are being complicit in the students breach of contracts with their gov't etc by allowing them to stay. 

 

[Edict]

When you look at new hires at Canadian universities, you will be surprised at how many internationally trained doctors we hire when Canadian grads sit unhired.