Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

Rise in competition last 5 years


jna1929

Recommended Posts

What happened in the past 5 or so years?

How come admission to all medical/health based programs (medicine, PT, OT, etc...) keeps getting more competitive, at least in Ontario?

Look at UofT PT.. in 2008 entering class GPA was 3.77 and in 2018 it is 3.89... McMaster OT.. cutoff was 3.59 in 2014 but 3.72 in 2017..UofT medicine... entering class average was 3.92 in 2012.... 3.96 in 2015...

What is happening here? What changed in the past 5 years for this radical rise in competition? It has not been happening with law.. only medical/health programs.

As far as I know there has been no significant change in immigration patterns, so why has it got so much more competitive?

it is ridiculous. with today's GPA requirements for OT/PT, one could have gotten into medical school just a few years ago.

What is happening that there are so many more qualified undergraduate students?

I mean it is still reasonable though, except for the top medical schools. You don't need to be a genius to get a high GPA, just above average intelligence. You also need to choose your undergraduate school and major carefully, know how to study effectively and interact with those grading your work properly, and put in the hours.

Personally I fulfilled all the above and ended up with a 3.92. If I studied my absolute best perhaps I could have reached a 3.94, but I think 3.94 is the most you can "guarantee" by doing your part (all of what I listed above). To get above 3.94, you either need luck or you need to be exceptionally intelligent. A 3.94 will get you in almost any program (assuming your other components are sufficient), except the top medical schools such as U of T (but apparently as early as 2014 it was sufficient).

I am just wondering what the entering class averages were in the 90s and early 2000s? Does anybody know? I bet U of T medicine required like a 3.8.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One reason probably is that with the aging population, degrees in health are pretty much bulletproof and will be in demand for a long time.

You make a comparison with law. From my limited understanding of their job market, it appears to be terrible which would lead many to refrain from studying law. I also think there has been a large increase in seats in law school in Ontario from what I've read here (going from memory so I could be wrong).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anecdotally many of my friends who did not end up in medical school went on to work in other healthcare professions (most common being nursing, PT).

Many did so because the road in medicine was too long and they were tired of schooling after undergrad/grad school, while others did so because their grades/MCAT were insufficient and there are not many alternatives with a "premed" degree. An overflow of individuals who went into university with the aim of achieving 4.0 into other healthcare professions might be contributing to the ever increasing standards. Plus in general, healthcare is an attractive field to work in due to its stability and pay. Nursing/PT/OT can do very well for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, jna1929 said:

I am just wondering what the entering class averages were in the 90s and early 2000s? Does anybody know? I bet U of T medicine required like a 3.8.

According to this forum, the UofT entering avg for medicine in 2001 was about 3.84 (I'm assuming that's the weighted average).  

There's multiple processes occurring though:
i) people are more aware of the importance of GPA and thus optimizing their course choices to maximize their avg; 
ii) there is continuous grade inflation - i.e. more people receive higher grades than in the past, for various reasons; 
iii) there has been an increase in applicants per seat - i.e. more competition: from 9.1 in 2000 to 12.1 in 2017 at UofT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

1. More people are playing the GPA "game"

2. McMaster Health Sci :P

I noticed that a lot of high GPA applicants come from McMaster. Is there a reason for this? I mean, schools such as UOIT, York, Ryerson, have reputations for being "easier" in terms of attaining a high GPA, but why is it that so many McMaster students get top notch GPAs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, jna1929 said:

I noticed that a lot of high GPA applicants come from McMaster. Is there a reason for this? I mean, schools such as UOIT, York, Ryerson, have reputations for being "easier" in terms of attaining a high GPA, but why is it that so many McMaster students get top notch GPAs?

McMaster figured out that if they could design a program that helped students get into med school, it would be highly desired. Hence why getting into Mac Health Sci is a big deal.

Part of the help is legitimate. Part of it is inflated grades from bird courses, the ability to negotiate your grade, and the overall expectation that students will be given A's. Plus lots of free time helps them build their CVs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, jna1929 said:

I noticed that a lot of high GPA applicants come from McMaster. Is there a reason for this? I mean, schools such as UOIT, York, Ryerson, have reputations for being "easier" in terms of attaining a high GPA, but why is it that so many McMaster students get top notch GPAs?

Its McMaster Health Scis. Mac Life sci is not so easy... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would speculate that it has to do with a few reasons. One, a tougher economic climate has made it difficult for those without a stable and secure job to lead a "comfortable" life. Health professions such as the ones you've listed make it easier for such, and so have swayed more students to pursue these careers than one might have seen in the past. This isn't to say that financial security is the sole reason in wanting to be a doctor for students, but it is certainly a factor.

Second, certain universities and programs make it easier to achieve of higher grades and/or are more conducive to pursuing a professional health career. Case in point, if you take a look at UofT medical school's admissions stats, there is a greater proportion of students from McMaster than that at any other school. This, despite the fact that the UofT's undergraduate student population is nearly 2.5 times greater (70k vs. 25k).  And due to the competition that now exists, students may optimize their chances (by grades, career support) by attending universities that would help them achieve their goals. 

And thirdly, I believe prerequisite requirements have since been reduced from what they were 5 years ago. UBC for instance now only requires English to be taken and no science courses whatsoever. It may be the case that for other schools in Ontario, they may have dropped the number of tough, weeder prereq courses needed for entry. This would of course contribute to the increase in grades that you see now. 

Based on all of this, I do think improvements to the admissions process is much needed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, sleepyhead20 said:

And thirdly, I believe prerequisite requirements have since been reduced from what they were 5 years ago. UBC for instance now only requires English to be taken and no science courses whatsoever. It may be the case that for other schools in Ontario, they may have dropped the number of tough, weeder prereq courses needed for entry. This would of course contribute to the increase in grades that you see now. 

It's true Western schools have dropped their pre-reqs.  But the difference at UBC in terms entering averages has been negligible, where it would be most apparent.  UofO still has pre-reqs and gets far more applicants than UofT surprisingly.  So I don't think this is a major factor.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, marrakech said:

It's true Western schools have dropped their pre-reqs.  But the difference at UBC in terms entering averages has been negligible, where it would be most apparent.  UofO still has pre-reqs and gets far more applicants than UofT surprisingly.  So I don't think this is a major factor.  

Hard to say for UBC however since they just removed the main science prereqs starting this cycle. It would be interesting to see if there is a bigger difference 2-3 cycles from now as current applicants most likely would have taken these prereqs already (those courses are still calculated as part of their GPAs). And for the case of UofO, it's possible that applicants may not be aware of the competitive averages needed for acceptance. UofT publishes this clearly on their website so it can act as a deterrent for those with lower GPAs from applying. Also, UofO doesn't require the MCAT or look at ECs extensively which does make it easier for those with just a high GPA to apply. 

What would be more useful would be to compare between multiple cycles beginning when prereqs have changed. But again, I think it's just one of several reasons for the grade inflation we see. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, sleepyhead20 said:

Hard to say for UBC however since they just removed the main science prereqs starting this cycle. It would be interesting to see if there is a bigger difference 2-3 cycles from now as current applicants most likely would have taken these prereqs already (those courses are still calculated as part of their GPAs). And for the case of UofO, it's possible that applicants may not be aware of the competitive averages needed for acceptance. UofT publishes this clearly on their website so it can act as a deterrent for those with lower GPAs from applying. Also, UofO doesn't require the MCAT or look at ECs extensively which does make it easier for those with just a high GPA to apply. 

What would be more useful would be to compare between multiple cycles beginning when prereqs have changed. But again, I think it's just one of several reasons for the grade inflation we see. 

Weren't you using UBC as an example?  I agree in principle there could more of a long term effect.

In any case, MCAT is probably a more robust estimate than GPA, but there are also so many factors that could change scores there: more accessible preparation, importance of MCAT scores to admission, etc etc..  

I'd argue that UofT cut-offs are much lower than UofOs.  And UofO GPA cut-offs are pretty well-known.  I'd hope applicants who take pre-reqs, etc.. have a sense of where the averages are.  But it's true there is no MCAT requirement and less ECs at Ottawa.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jna1929 said:

What happened in the past 5 or so years?

How come admission to all medical/health based programs (medicine, PT, OT, etc...) keeps getting more competitive, at least in Ontario?

Look at UofT PT.. in 2008 entering class GPA was 3.77 and in 2018 it is 3.89... McMaster OT.. cutoff was 3.59 in 2014 but 3.72 in 2017..UofT medicine... entering class average was 3.92 in 2012.... 3.96 in 2015...

What is happening here? What changed in the past 5 years for this radical rise in competition? It has not been happening with law.. only medical/health programs.

As far as I know there has been no significant change in immigration patterns, so why has it got so much more competitive?

it is ridiculous. with today's GPA requirements for OT/PT, one could have gotten into medical school just a few years ago.

What is happening that there are so many more qualified undergraduate students?

I mean it is still reasonable though, except for the top medical schools. You don't need to be a genius to get a high GPA, just above average intelligence. You also need to choose your undergraduate school and major carefully, know how to study effectively and interact with those grading your work properly, and put in the hours.

Personally I fulfilled all the above and ended up with a 3.92. If I studied my absolute best perhaps I could have reached a 3.94, but I think 3.94 is the most you can "guarantee" by doing your part (all of what I listed above). To get above 3.94, you either need luck or you need to be exceptionally intelligent. A 3.94 will get you in almost any program (assuming your other components are sufficient), except the top medical schools such as U of T (but apparently as early as 2014 it was sufficient).

I am just wondering what the entering class averages were in the 90s and early 2000s? Does anybody know? I bet U of T medicine required like a 3.8.

I legit did not know the PT entrance average was that high.  Don't get me wrong its a good career...but its more than a little bizarre to think that an extra 0.1 GPA can be the difference between 60-80k/year and 200k/year, EVERY YEAR FOR LIFE in medicine (after residency obviously).  Like think about that, your lifetime earnings will likely triple based on...0.1 GPA.  (I'm sure someone will respond to this that "there are some ppl just passionate about PT over medicine", which is honestly a dumb argument although I know it will be made)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, goleafsgochris said:

I legit did not know the PT entrance average was that high.  Don't get me wrong its a good career...but its more than a little bizarre to think that an extra 0.1 GPA can be the difference between 60-80k/year and 200k/year, EVERY YEAR FOR LIFE in medicine (after residency obviously).  Like think about that, your lifetime earnings will likely triple based on...0.1 GPA.  (I'm sure someone will respond to this that "there are some ppl just passionate about PT over medicine", which is honestly a dumb argument although I know it will be made)

I think that the GPA requirement for PT is so high is ridiculous, but I don't think it is ridiculous to expect people to choose PT over MD. Think about it. As PT you don't have to do chemistry and some other advanced science courses that are required for MD. Some people enjoy the day to day job duties of PT more than MD (some people get anxious about the level of responsibility as an MD, or they don't like dealing with blood/wounds/infections, etc..). Also, compare PT to MD: 2 year  intensive yet not too competitive program at 25k tuition (if you include opportunity cost of not working full time that turns to at least 100k) + 60k-80k salary + doing what you like as a job vs 200k salary but 4 year super intensive and competitive program at 100k tuition (when you factor in opportunity cost of not working full time that goes to at least 350k). 60-80k salary is enough to live a comfortable life, so not everybody is willing to make all those additional sacrifices to go into MD just to make additional money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, marrakech said:

Weren't you using UBC as an example?  I agree in principle there could more of a long term effect.

In any case, MCAT is probably a more robust estimate than GPA, but there are also so many factors that could change scores there: more accessible preparation, importance of MCAT scores to admission, etc etc..  

I'd argue that UofT cut-offs are much lower than UofOs.  And UofO GPA cut-offs are pretty well-known.  I'd hope applicants who take pre-reqs, etc.. have a sense of where the averages are.  But it's true there is no MCAT requirement and less ECs at Ottawa.  

I used UBC as an example to show that the inflation we see could be due to schools dropping their prereqs. I don't know the exact prereqs that were required by other schools 5 years ago, but from speaking to an acquaintance who's a resident now, they mentioned that UofT did have a different set of prereqs when they applied. This would've been over 5 years ago. McMaster's Health Sciences program as an example does not require its students to take organic chemistry or any calculus courses which would help boost their GPAs since those are typically viewed as harder courses. If there are other students applying who are aware of these prereqs ahead of time, it wouldn't be surprising to see that they would choose their courses accordingly so as to get a higher GPA. So in a way, the inflation could in part be artificial because the requirements for admissions have since changed, making it easier to get a higher GPA. 

And it's not true that just because a student is aware of the prereqs, which are published clearly on each school's site, they would know what help them make a competitive applicant.Take a look at McMaster - they receive the most applications every year despite some having lower GPAs and MCAT scores. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, sleepyhead20 said:

And it's not true that just because a student is aware of the prereqs, which are published clearly on each school's site, they would know what help them make a competitive applicant.Take a look at McMaster - they receive the most applications every year despite some having lower GPAs and MCAT scores. 

I don't really think this discussion is going anywhere.  But McMaster proves exactly the point - they do accept occasionally applicants with lower GPAs, so it makes sense that more people would apply (even though the chances of being accepted are still much lower).  Ottawa otoh makes less sense - no one is accepted below the cutoff, yet many people apply, even more than UofT.  Anybody who's even remotely looked into the situation knows that how high Ottawa's cutoffs are.

And as far as I know, UofT has had the same pre-reqs for a long time.  Western used to have English and OChem, but that was long time ago, before SWOMEN even.  
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mac life sci has grade inflation too. A friend of mine took 12 environment science courses that were bird (natural disasters, water??) and had a 3.94 gpa. Sure he worked hard but with courses as simple as this, it’s no wonder gpa keeps going up year after year. And mind you, you can complete pre reqs like orgo and physics over the summer not factoring into your gpa in most schools when applying for med/dent/etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think McGill also saw a big influx in applications the year it dropped the MCAT requirement - maybe it is unique in that it just opened the door for amyn francophone applicants who were previously deterred to write the MCAT. But afaik, the pre-reqs at McGill are still pretty stringent (bio, chem, orgo, physics) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, lmck said:

I think McGill also saw a big influx in applications the year it dropped the MCAT requirement - maybe it is unique in that it just opened the door for amyn francophone applicants who were previously deterred to write the MCAT. But afaik, the pre-reqs at McGill are still pretty stringent (bio, chem, orgo, physics) 

IP applicants never had to write the MCAT anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Coronaxtra said:

Mac life sci has grade inflation too. A friend of mine took 12 environment science courses that were bird (natural disasters, water??) and had a 3.94 gpa. Sure he worked hard but with courses as simple as this, it’s no wonder gpa keeps going up year after year. And mind you, you can complete pre reqs like orgo and physics over the summer not factoring into your gpa in most schools when applying for med/dent/etc

But specialisations like biochem, chem bio have mandatory courses that can be considered more difficult. I guess the general life sci has so many electives, but I would bore out of my mind taking 12 environmental science courses...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Snowmen said:

IP applicants never had to write the MCAT anyway.

MED-P didn't but University level did for sure.  There are very few OOP spots, so any changes there wouldn't be a big deal.  It definitely did improve accessibility and also as a result GPA became more important.  In general though, MCAT seems to be less important in Canadian admissions recently.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, marrakech said:

I don't really think this discussion is going anywhere.  But McMaster proves exactly the point - they do accept occasionally applicants with lower GPAs, so it makes sense that more people would apply (even though the chances of being accepted are still much lower).  Ottawa otoh makes less sense - no one is accepted below the cutoff, yet many people apply, even more than UofT.  Anybody who's even remotely looked into the situation knows that how high Ottawa's cutoffs are.

And as far as I know, UofT has had the same pre-reqs for a long time.  Western used to have English and OChem, but that was long time ago, before SWOMEN even.  
 

Yes, I was only trying to defend my point about how the removal of tougher prereqs could explain the grade inflation seen across programs. You had said you don't believe this to be a major factor, pointing out that Ottawa receives more applications than UofT. This despite the former having more prereqs. And that is true, but I am saying that the number of applications a school receives does not correlate with the competitiveness of the applicants themselves. I don't think the fact that students are more driven is the sole reason for this shift in grades, that's all. However I do recognize that it is rather difficult to confirm of this - it's only speculation on my part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...