McMaster life sci vs McMaster health sci

[angelav]

Is health science extremely difficult to get into? And what’s the difference between life sci and health sci are they both good programs, are high gpas attainable? Also what other unis  in Ontario offer really good life or health sci programs that will help get higher grades and prepare for mcat and med school? 

[plastics91]

1 hour ago, angelav said:

Is health science extremely difficult to get into? And what’s the difference between life sci and health sci are they both good programs, are high gpas attainable? Also what other unis  in Ontario offer really good life or health sci programs that will help get higher grades and prepare for mcat and med school? 

health sci is generally perceived to be difficult to get into but I've heard of ppl without stellar grades getting in near Hamilton? Have no idea how true this is.

Mac is generally an easy school to do well in from what I hear and you shouldn't have any issues getting good grades at either health or life sci.

if you want to streamline into med you'd probably be better off in healthsci as you'll be in a class full of premeds and the program will know how to help you

[McMarauder]

18 hours ago, plastics91 said:

health sci is generally perceived to be difficult to get into but I've heard of ppl without stellar grades getting in near Hamilton? Have no idea how true this is.

Mac is generally an easy school to do well in from what I hear and you shouldn't have any issues getting good grades at either health or life sci.

if you want to streamline into med you'd probably be better off in healthsci as you'll be in a class full of premeds and the program will know how to help you

Not entirely true.

I started undergrad at UofT in life science and transferred to McMaster for biology. There wasn't really a difference in terms of difficulty.  Health Sci on the other hand, had a reputation that extended beyond the campus.

[Nibbler]

19 hours ago, plastics91 said:

health sci is generally perceived to be difficult to get into but I've heard of ppl without stellar grades getting in near Hamilton? Have no idea how true this is.

Mac is generally an easy school to do well in from what I hear and you shouldn't have any issues getting good grades at either health or life sci.

if you want to streamline into med you'd probably be better off in healthsci as you'll be in a class full of premeds and the program will know how to help you

I did my H.BSc in Biology at McMaster (transferred from life sci) and minored in Biochemistry. 

I think saying mac is an easy school to do well is a bit of a stretch. I have many peers who have struggled to maintain marginally competitive GPAs. Health sciences, on the other hand, is notoriously easy. I can't tell you how much more time my healthsci friends had to prepare for the MCAT, volunteer, work etc because they had cakewalk courses. Not taking anything away from them, there are some brilliant minds from that program. Now, on the other hand, there are some students in mac life sci who abuse the many electives they have to take the absolute birdiest courses (environmental sciences, water, econ). In this way, a life sci degree at mac can be much easier.

[Edict]

On 5/3/2018 at 8:50 PM, angelav said:

Is health science extremely difficult to get into? And what’s the difference between life sci and health sci are they both good programs, are high gpas attainable? Also what other unis  in Ontario offer really good life or health sci programs that will help get higher grades and prepare for mcat and med school? 

health sci is hard to get into, it is considered better for med because high gpas are a lot easier in health sci. Nothing else in Ontario matches health sci for their success rate for getting into med. Something like 70-80% of health scis eventually get into med with 40% getting in after 3rd year, 25% after 4th year and the rest after a gap year or master/phd. 

[angelav]

Thank you so much for the reply! Also do you think it could be possible to switch into health science for example second year from life science? 

[cleanup]

Healthsci folks are notorious for having an easy time and basically being preened/ushered into professional programmes.

Do it! U of T destroyed my soul (weeps silently) and I can't imagine lifesci being that much easier at Mac.

[Organomegaly]

13 hours ago, Edict said:

health sci is hard to get into, it is considered better for med because high gpas are a lot easier in health sci. Nothing else in Ontario matches health sci for their success rate for getting into med. Something like 70-80% of health scis eventually get into med with 40% getting in after 3rd year, 25% after 4th year and the rest after a gap year or master/phd. 

Not 40% after 3rd year. 

Around 30/200 of my class got in after third year which is replicable from year to year. It's a lot more that get in after 4th year. But yes, overall your statistic of ~70% of the class going to medical school is correct.

The other factor not often discussed is that the program fosters good professionalism and communication skills as part of its curriculum, which also contributes heavily to the success of graduates getting into medical school. There are mandatory reflection courses, patient SP encounter communication courses, an emphasis on group work and resource access.There is more to it than just the GPA.

If you have an offer to health sciences definitely take it barring some other life factors (need to be near family due to extenuating circumstances etc). 

[peace2014]

I think the health sci thread comes back very frequently that it is a bird program with it being specially designed to get students into med due to higher GPA, more coaching and better time doing ECs. I personally find it concerning that the program always defend against these claims but it is bluntly obvious to everyone what the program is like. One thing you have to consider is that Mac life sci is always overshadowed by health sci, whether it is opportunities for research, volunteering (I heard the mac childrens hospital favour health scis over others), ease of getting references and many things. I have tons of brilliant friends who did not get into Canadian med schools from life sci program and it is very concerning to me that people who chose a more difficult program (perhaps engineering/or harder sciences) is penalised in our system. But in conclusion, GO TO A SUPER EASY PROGRAM... if you are set in getting into med school here

[Edict]

1 hour ago, peace2014 said:

I think the health sci thread comes back very frequently that it is a bird program with it being specially designed to get students into med due to higher GPA, more coaching and better time doing ECs. I personally find it concerning that the program always defend against these claims but it is bluntly obvious to everyone what the program is like. One thing you have to consider is that Mac life sci is always overshadowed by health sci, whether it is opportunities for research, volunteering (I heard the mac childrens hospital favour health scis over others), ease of getting references and many things. I have tons of brilliant friends who did not get into Canadian med schools from life sci program and it is very concerning to me that people who chose a more difficult program (perhaps engineering/or harder sciences) is penalised in our system. But in conclusion, GO TO A SUPER EASY PROGRAM... if you are set in getting into med school here

I agree, but to play devil's advocate, and to be balanced, something like 2/3rd of health scis had an avg over 95% in high school and 1/3rd had an average between 90-95%. Health scis are typically at the top of their class in high school and yes, because the admissions is almost entirely based on a few essays being judged by 4th year health scis and a few staff, a lot of top students get missed, but we also have to understand that at least part of the reason health scis do so well is because they were top students in the first place and many if not most of them would have gotten in no matter which program they went into. Ultimately, the fact that Mac researchers are more interested in taking health scis is an unfortunate reality. Health sci has a reputation of being a highly selective program and researchers want them, there is nothing you can really do about it. 

With that being said, there are definitely health scis who do get into med who would not have gotten into med if they had not been in the program, and there are many health scis who get into more medical schools or get into medical schools a year or two earlier than they would normally have because of the GPA boost the health sci program gives, so the displeasure of students from other programs does have some merit. 

The best way to explain the health sci vs life sci advantage is, yes both take many of the same courses, but health scis might take 2 regular courses and 3 project based courses while a life sci takes 5 regular courses. During the semester, the health sci has more project courses to take and has to spend time on them, but these courses are an easy A as well. When it comes to exam time, the health sci is only studying for 2 exams, while the life sci has to study for 5, so ultimately health scis do better on the exam and finish with a 3.9+ GPA, while the life sci may finish with a much lower GPA that rules them out of medical school, or at least makes it much more challenging for them to get into medical school. 

The TL:DR is, apply to health sci, work hard on your supp apps, if you get in and you want med, do not ask questions just do it. If you don't, all the other programs are relatively equal, if you are still looking for the extra edge, choose Western med sci. Avoid UofT Life sci unless you absolutely must tell your relatives you go to a top 20 school  

 

[gangliocytoma]

2 hours ago, peace2014 said:

I think the health sci thread comes back very frequently that it is a bird program with it being specially designed to get students into med due to higher GPA, more coaching and better time doing ECs. I personally find it concerning that the program always defend against these claims but it is bluntly obvious to everyone what the program is like. One thing you have to consider is that Mac life sci is always overshadowed by health sci, whether it is opportunities for research, volunteering (I heard the mac childrens hospital favour health scis over others), ease of getting references and many things. I have tons of brilliant friends who did not get into Canadian med schools from life sci program and it is very concerning to me that people who chose a more difficult program (perhaps engineering/or harder sciences) is penalised in our system. But in conclusion, GO TO A SUPER EASY PROGRAM... if you are set in getting into med school here

Actually, I've heard the opposite. I know of some supervisors who refuse to take health sci students because of their lack of basic science knowledge and lack of prior lab exposure/skills. 

 

Edit: that being said, there are still many health sci students that do very well in all sorts of labs

[Nibbler]

On 5/5/2018 at 6:59 PM, Edict said:

I agree, but to play devil's advocate, and to be balanced, something like 2/3rd of health scis had an avg over 95% in high school and 1/3rd had an average between 90-95%. Health scis are typically at the top of their class in high school and yes, because the admissions is almost entirely based on a few essays being judged by 4th year health scis and a few staff, a lot of top students get missed, but we also have to understand that at least part of the reason health scis do so well is because they were top students in the first place and many if not most of them would have gotten in no matter which program they went into. Ultimately, the fact that Mac researchers are more interested in taking health scis is an unfortunate reality. Health sci has a reputation of being a highly selective program and researchers want them, there is nothing you can really do about it. 

With that being said, there are definitely health scis who do get into med who would not have gotten into med if they had not been in the program, and there are many health scis who get into more medical schools or get into medical schools a year or two earlier than they would normally have because of the GPA boost the health sci program gives, so the displeasure of students from other programs does have some merit. 

The best way to explain the health sci vs life sci advantage is, yes both take many of the same courses, but health scis might take 2 regular courses and 3 project based courses while a life sci takes 5 regular courses. During the semester, the health sci has more project courses to take and has to spend time on them, but these courses are an easy A as well. When it comes to exam time, the health sci is only studying for 2 exams, while the life sci has to study for 5, so ultimately health scis do better on the exam and finish with a 3.9+ GPA, while the life sci may finish with a much lower GPA that rules them out of medical school, or at least makes it much more challenging for them to get into medical school. 

The TL:DR is, apply to health sci, work hard on your supp apps, if you get in and you want med, do not ask questions just do it. If you don't, all the other programs are relatively equal, if you are still looking for the extra edge, choose Western med sci. Avoid UofT Life sci unless you absolutely must tell your relatives you go to a top 20 school  

 

These are some great points/advice. I wonder, though, how we could possibly be rewarding stellar highschool performance with a 70% acceptance rate into professional schools when spots are so very scarce and a blatant advantage when it comes to GPA? 

I suppose part of me is salty because I had to bust my butt off for relatively competitive med stats and also I was a complete mess coming out of highschool and wish I had that kind of guidance in lifesci   

[cleanup]

Achieving high grades in highschool is great, but to be frank, it is a damn sight easier to do that than it is to do well in a busy post-secondary programme where you're also juggling a bunch of other commitments and trying to get into professional school. Folks accepted into healthsci may be at the top of their game at that moment, but I don't think it's an argument that it is a relative breeze compared to most other science/pre-health programmes.

I never did apply to healtsci because I did my highschooling outside of the country and didn't really know about it (though my brother had mentioned it to me); all I wanted was to go to a prestigious school (stupid me) so U of T it was. Still got to where I wanted to be so no regrets, but if you have the chance to do healthsci, do it! It is a far more balanced, cooperative and supportive experience than most other programmes will be, even aside from the ease of academic courseload.

[Cross]

Hello, I am Mac Health Sci graduate. Happy to share my thoughts on the program

Having completed a research-based MSc in 9 months, I am confident in saying that the program is not easier in any way. I took organic chemistry and found that to be much easier than our second-year anatomy classes. I've taken plenty of life sci courses and had friends in life sci- we compared notes all the time and neither was any easier. It gets this rep as many students in Health Sci are exceptionally bright. I myself was never one of these students who could memorize a page at a glance, but trust me, they exist. It makes the courses seem much easier if you already have an accelerated rate of learning. Expectations are also higher. 

Your application will be read and evaluated by 4th year health sciences students. Like my peers, I have assessed these personal essays. We are looking for traits that are compatible with the program, and of course, creativity. 

If you have any questions feel free to inbox me

Edit: I guess I also wanted to say that the program is by no means perfect. If you do not like group work, it is definitely not for you. Picture 4 strong horses pulling in 4 different directions and you get an idea of what it's like. Ehh I'm reading a lot of these posts and there's a lot of points I disagree with but that's fine

[peace2014]

38 minutes ago, Cross said:

 

Having completed a research-based MSc in 9 months, I am confident in saying that the program is not easier in any way.

Sorry to be blunt, but I find this to be disturbingly impressive. 9 months for a Masters. It takes usually 4 months just to get from submission to acceptance in a decent journal. On top of this, there are so many factors taken into account, it is hard to say which one is easier. That being said, being a high-achiever in high school does not mean you will be good in uni at all. Ontario high schools are extremely variable and due to grade inflation, 90% is much easier now than lets say 5 years ago. Therefore, although health scis have "high" averages and they are very bright, so does at least 75% of people at other life sci/biomed/etc... programs, but only health scis have such a high rate of med school acceptance. 

[Organomegaly]

3 hours ago, peace2014 said:

Sorry to be blunt, but I find this to be disturbingly impressive. 9 months for a Masters. It takes usually 4 months just to get from submission to acceptance in a decent journal. On top of this, there are so many factors taken into account, it is hard to say which one is easier. That being said, being a high-achiever in high school does not mean you will be good in uni at all. Ontario high schools are extremely variable and due to grade inflation, 90% is much easier now than lets say 5 years ago. Therefore, although health scis have "high" averages and they are very bright, so does at least 75% of people at other life sci/biomed/etc... programs, but only health scis have such a high rate of med school acceptance. 

The grade inflation aspect is true across Ontario for sure. However, the averages are not the same at health sciences compared to life science programs. The average is probably closer to ~96% in a typical first year entry BHSc class. It is definitely lower than that in other life science programs. High school GPA is not a perfect metric, but it has been shown to reliably correlate with success in university. 

Another aspect that differentiates the health sciences cohort is the supplementary application: this is the bigger factor, in my opinion, as it requires solid communication skills to succeed on this aspect. To have beat out 95% of your competition and write a top 5% essay takes being an excellent communicator.  I find these skills translate well into success on other written tasks, CASPer, interviews, etc. This, in my opinion, is the biggest determinant of success in future professional programs after GPA -- your communication! People will say there is a luck component on getting a good supp app mark. There is, for sure. But I have also marked these essays and think there is a clear gradient in how original people's ideas are and the degree to which they can sell them. I do think this means something

That said,  I do believe that the program itself is easier than other programs. Not a complete joke like others on here would have you believe, but I do think we get more courses with subjective assessment criteria that sometimes make it easier to achieve an 'A' grade. The program also has a more collaborative environment that promotes people's success moreso than other programs. 

And I do believe some people that would not have been successful otherwise in applying to medicine are because they had the fortune of being accepted to health sciences. In hind sight, I look at some courses that I took that were part of the program and consider them a huge waste of time. However, there was also a mix of other courses that have really made medical school a bit easier for having took them (anatomy, epidemiology and critical appraisal of literature being the main ones). I would not change my decision to attend the program knowing all this.

People will love to give galvanized views on the issue: on the one hand that the program is a joke and serves to funnel students to medicine, and on the other that the success of the students is due solely to the skill of the cohort. Like most things -- the truth is somewhere in between! 

If you get an offer, I still think it is wise to accept it, not just because it will give you the best shot at medicne, but because of the merits of the program itself for someone interested in health care. 

 

[you]

On 5/11/2018 at 11:13 AM, Cross said:

Hello, I am Mac Health Sci graduate. Happy to share my thoughts on the program

Having completed a research-based MSc in 9 months, I am confident in saying that the program is not easier in any way. I took organic chemistry and found that to be much easier than our second-year anatomy classes. I've taken plenty of life sci courses and had friends in life sci- we compared notes all the time and neither was any easier. It gets this rep as many students in Health Sci are exceptionally bright. I myself was never one of these students who could memorize a page at a glance, but trust me, they exist. It makes the courses seem much easier if you already have an accelerated rate of learning. Expectations are also higher. 

Your application will be read and evaluated by 4th year health sciences students. Like my peers, I have assessed these personal essays. We are looking for traits that are compatible with the program, and of course, creativity. 

If you have any questions feel free to inbox me

Edit: I guess I also wanted to say that the program is by no means perfect. If you do not like group work, it is definitely not for you. Picture 4 strong horses pulling in 4 different directions and you get an idea of what it's like. Ehh I'm reading a lot of these posts and there's a lot of points I disagree with but that's fine

Are you allowed to take art courses like language, econ, stats, etc if you choose health science or is it a totally different faculty?

Also, how well would you say an average student would do in this program, someone who is not Einstein bright but can work well? And how is the community atmosphere there in general, for the group projects, since you said there may be a lot of disagreements?