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CBC: UBC medical school standards called into question


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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/06/01/bc-ubc-medical-school-standards.html

 

Very interesting article and video by the CBC today. There are supposedly leaked documents which show the breakdown of post-interview selection, although I am sure many other factors come into play as well (references, red flags, holistic factors, etc.)

 

VFMP, SMP, IMP

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NMP

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Apparently the MCAT is not a factor in the NMP selection process (granted, the MCAT itself is a poor indicator of medical performance anyways). A student with a GPA of ~70% was also admitted, even though for the past few years (as far as I know) UBC has had a minimum 75% admission requirement. Interesting enough, for NMP, GPA is apparently 50% of the decision for this cycle, which doesn't seem to jive with the low academic averages reported by CBC. So without more information, it's still hard to say what's going on. However, Interim Dean Bruce Fleming hasn't seem to have disputed these documents, so I think they may have some validity.

 

Assuming these leaked documents are true, what are some other ways to recruit willing students to study and remain in Northern BC? Higher wage incentives? Placing an even bigger emphasis on the RRSS? I think the issue of retaining doctors to practice in the north is certainly a difficult one to solve.

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LOL my thoughts exactly. though of course I'm still questioning the validity of all this.

 

I don't know, I think I believe it. The dean of admissions didn't deny the claims in the video. I guess this also makes sense as to why people will low AQ's and high NAQ's with above average interviews got rejected. It may have been their low GPA and MCAT that led to them being ranked low on the list. All this time, they must have had been hoping that their EC's would get them by.

 

I enjoy a lot of my activities and I'd still participate in some of them even if I wasn't going into medicine, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I started to do a lot of them only because I knew it would going to be required to have a shot at medicine. There have been many times throughout my 2 years of university where I said, "I wish I didn't have to volunteer today so that I can study for this test". I was just trying to keep a balance.

 

I know ultimately its my fault, but had this criteria been public knowledge, I would have had an easier time being able to prioritize my activities.

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I don't know, I think I believe it. The dean of admissions didn't deny the claims in the video.

This is assuming that these documents are real and that the interview with the dean of admissions wasn't spliced to hell like in...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAe3FpLGvBY

 

Anyway, our northern colleagues need to fill out a rural assessment/suitability form before they are even considered for a spot in the NMP. I would bet that there's a separate ranking system for them to begin with.

 

And assuming these documents are legitimate, you still need extracurriculars for getting to the interview stage.

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And assuming these documents are legitimate, you still need extracurriculars for getting to the interview stage.

 

This. And who's to say that the selection criteria won't change again this cycle? There are still too many intangibles, and at the end of the day, I don't think these documents should change the way people have been approaching UBC medical school admissions.

 

I certainly wouldn't bet the farm on these documents, they are just are something interesting to look at and talk about. The silliest thing to do would be to treat these apparent documents as gospel and try to do everything to match it.

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Ah, the debate on incentives for rural/northern practice... should there be more lenient admissions requirements for students that show interest in northern/rural practice after they graduate?

 

From the perspective of applicants, it seems unfair where every spot is a huge deal... but I do see value in this strategy if it means graduates will choose to practice in places that need doctors the most. If this information is made public (which I guess it now is), then people will just game/take advantage of the system by pretending to be super interested. That is unfortunate, because I think the alternate strategies have proven to be costly but ineffective.

 

The program was expanded not only to increase numbers of physicians in BC, but also to encourage graduates to remain in those other areas. Actually, the latter reason is probably the whole point of the IMP, SMP, and NMP. So in my view it's quite justified to have different criteria. That last year EIGHT doctors chose to remain in the north is great news.

 

As for the 0% NAQ, though, I'm quite shocked because I always thought UBC was a school that focused on extracurriculars. They certainly still do pre-interview, but post-interview it looks like they replace NAQ with the interview. It looks to me like they're taking a McMaster-like approach, by judging your NAQ through your performance at the interview. I don't know how much I like this, but I do disagree with the whole practice of assigning scores to ECs, so maybe I'm slightly in favour of it? Though, how well the MMI tests for those qualities is another debate to be had.

 

The MCAT at 25% is fair to me, since it's the only real standardized portion (other than the MMI) of the review, and GPA at 25% is (to my pleasant surprise) lower than I expected.

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I wish you all well in your careers and always think it is always in the public interest to make secret criteria public. Not sure there is any unfairness but can not help but wonder if UBC might not get even better applicants for the NMP if the criteria were more widely known.

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Whether it's trustworthy or not, I have a feeling it's going to change again this year. And even if it isn't going to change, advice on how to get in isn't going to change - do as well as you can in your classes, take on whatever extracurriculars you can, do as well as you can on the MCAT, and do as well as you can on the interview.

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Whether it's trustworthy or not, I have a feeling it's going to change again this year. And even if it isn't going to change, advice on how to get in isn't going to change - do as well as you can in your classes, take on whatever extracurriculars you can, do as well as you can on the MCAT, and do as well as you can on the interview.

 

It may not change the advice but it certainly will change people's approach to building their applications. For example, for someone who is confident that they will receive an interview, they may choose not to spend so much time and effort building their EC's if they won't be looked at after the interview. I was planning on devoting the next year to building my EC's but if I feel that they are already sufficient to get an interview then I may shift my priorities to something else (eg. earning money). Also, people with a mediocre MCAT may consider rewriting if it truly is worth a whopping 25% post-interview.

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It may not change the advice but it certainly will change people's approach to building their applications. For example, for someone who is confident that they will receive an interview, they may choose not to spend so much time and effort building their EC's if they won't be looked at after the interview. I was planning on devoting the next year to building my EC's but if I feel that they are already sufficient to get an interview then I may shift my priorities to something else (eg. earning money). Also, people with a mediocre MCAT may consider rewriting if it truly is worth a whopping 25% post-interview.
You can't gauge your own NAQ score. It's a subjective criteria by UBC. How will you know when you have done enough ECs? You just don't.
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It may not change the advice but it certainly will change people's approach to building their applications. For example, for someone who is confident that they will receive an interview, they may choose not to spend so much time and effort building their EC's if they won't be looked at after the interview. I was planning on devoting the next year to building my EC's but if I feel that they are already sufficient to get an interview then I may shift my priorities to something else (eg. earning money). Also, people with a mediocre MCAT may consider rewriting if it truly is worth a whopping 25% post-interview.

 

You're absolutely right.

 

You can't gauge your own NAQ score. It's a subjective criteria by UBC. How will you know when you have done enough ECs? You just don't.

 

If you have 90% - ie. 50/50 on the AQ, you pretty much only need a little above 10/50 on NAQ to gain an interview, which I'm sure almost anyone can get. Thus, I think there is going to be a huge emphasis on writing the MCAT for those looking at UBC since everyone use to say it didn't mean a lot, but clearly it does now.

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If you have 90% - ie. 50/50 on the AQ, you pretty much only need a little above 10/50 on NAQ to gain an interview, which I'm sure almost anyone can get. Thus, I think there is going to be a huge emphasis on writing the MCAT for those looking at UBC since everyone use to say it didn't mean a lot, but clearly it does now.

 

 

Exactly. There are certainly people who can be almost sure they will get an interview despite having relatively weak EC's. The information released in that news clip undoubtedly changes the plan of attack for these people (assuming it is actually true).

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I almost regret starting this thread because people seem to be treating this news report as gospel. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

 

Who's to say that the selection criteria won't change again this cycle? There are still too many intangibles, and at the end of the day, I don't think these documents should change the way people have been approaching UBC medical school admissions.

 

I certainly wouldn't bet the farm on these documents, they are just are something interesting to look at and talk about. The silliest thing to do would be to treat these apparent documents as gospel and try to do everything to match it.

 

Your biggest mistake would be to match everything to a tee in these "supposed" documents, only to screw yourself over when UBC decides revamp the decision criteria for this cycle. Also, even if the documents are real, don't you think the UBC adcom realizes that this criteria has been leaked and might actually do something about it for this cycle? Also, I think there are many other factors that these "leaked" documents don't mention. I can think of references and academic trends for starters.

 

Just do everything to the best of your ability, instead of trying to figure out the system.

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I almost regret starting this thread because people seem to be treating this news report as gospel. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

 

 

 

Your biggest mistake would be to match everything to a tee in these "supposed" documents, only to screw yourself over when UBC decides revamp the decision criteria for this cycle. Also, even if the documents are real, don't you think the UBC adcom realizes that this criteria has been leaked and might actually do something about it for this cycle? Also, I think there are many other factors that these "leaked" documents don't mention. I can think of references and academic trends for starters.

 

Just do everything to the best of your ability, instead of trying to figure out the system.

 

 

Nobody said they were intending on taking this information 100% seriously. We are merely speculating on the impact it would have on our plans if it were true.

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I can't image that those documents were real. I have a friend that got above average on the interview, had a better MCAT than me, similar grades, and similar ECs and got flat out rejected after the interview.

 

Sorry, but letters of reference are a big part of your application. If you have a letter of reference that doesn't really sell you as the next best thing, then it will affect your chances of getting in. Everyone knows the MCAT is only used for a flag. My MCAT is not that high, and I got in, with average everything, but good ECs and I'm betting awesome LORs. For god sake I said some pretty stupid things in my interview.

It can't be as simple as 3 column on a table. There's just NO way. If it were that simple, don't you think we'd know if we got into med school two weeks after the interviews were over? NO, they mull every single person over and evaluate files for THREE months. They have a whole division in the faculty of medicine dedicated to admissions. Anyone that believes the news we just saw should take a step back and look at the process that is being purported. It's just too simplistic an approach to be real.

 

And that's my rant.

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I can't image that those documents were real. I have a friend that got above average on the interview, had a better MCAT than me, similar grades, and similar ECs and got flat out rejected after the interview.

 

Sorry, but letters of reference are a big part of your application. If you have a letter of reference that doesn't really sell you as the next best thing, then it will affect your chances of getting in. Everyone knows the MCAT is only used for a flag. My MCAT is not that high, and I got in, with average everything, but good ECs and I'm betting awesome LORs. For god sake I said some pretty stupid things in my interview.

It can't be as simple as 3 column on a table. There's just NO way. If it were that simple, don't you think we'd know if we got into med school two weeks after the interviews were over? NO, they mull every single person over and evaluate files for THREE months. They have a whole division in the faculty of medicine dedicated to admissions. Anyone that believes the news we just saw should take a step back and look at the process that is being purported. It's just too simplistic an approach to be real.

 

And that's my rant.

 

 

Me Gusta :D

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Being one of the applicants rejected with an above average interview, this criteria makes a lot of sense for this application cycle. I certainly wouldn’t bet the farm on it but it is a reminder that we don’t know what emphasis UBC places on the MCAT or what formula they use to assess MCAT scores. Remember that UBC converts your score and the weighting they use for each section is unknown (i.e. maybe they only care about VR so while you may have a similar total score to the next guy, your score in that section may be the differentiator.) I'm sure they do take a holistic approach to the applicaitons post-interview but this criteria could be the first filter, and once they are down to 400 or so then take a closer look. Anyway, it's all speculation but to be safe, I'll be rewriting the MCAT in August:-)

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Being one of the applicants rejected with an above average interview, this criteria makes a lot of sense for this application cycle. I certainly wouldn’t bet the farm on it but it is a reminder that we don’t know what emphasis UBC places on the MCAT or what formula they use to assess MCAT scores. Remember that UBC converts your score and the weighting they use for each section is unknown (i.e. maybe they only care about VR so while you may have a similar total score to the next guy, your score in that section may be the differentiator.) I'm sure they do take a holistic approach to the applicaitons post-interview but this criteria could be the first filter, and once they are down to 400 or so then take a closer look. Anyway, it's all speculation but to be safe, I'll be rewriting the MCAT in August:-)

 

Are rejected applicants given an interview score?

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