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Dentistry Program In Canada Worth It Anymore?


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To say that there should be less applicants to dental school bc dentistry as a career is not worth it anymore is a very simplified way of looking at things. The reason being simple, a lot of students don't know what they are getting themselves in to. Yes they may talk to dentists but they won't get a feel for what it's really like until they start practicing. These students are focused on the prestige and the income potential...the key word is potential not guarantee and so as long as dental schools in Canada keep glorifying their schools *cough cough UWO* then it will entice students to apply. Why I mention UWO, apparently this year's white coat ceremony for dentists was combined with the MDs, which I find utterly pointless just another way to say oh look dentists are just as good and prestigious as doctors, please hand over your money to use so we can make you into another average dentist just like the rest of us. 

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Getting into dentistry is becoming such a joke, now I see people getting in from Ryerson University. People are saying it's getting more competitive but I don't think so, I'm not sure about Uoft but I'm speaking with respect to UWO.  UWO looks at your top 2 years and I know so many people taking so many elective courses to bring up their GPAs and use that as their top two years. No offence but Ryerson???? c'mon seriously. Ryerson is not a strong university for sciences, I remember at once point they didn't even have a decent science program and now everyone is taking their ochem pre-req at Ryerson U bc it's so easy and now I'm see more and more students from Ryerson U getting into dental school. In the last 4 years about 3 students, and relatively speaking that's a lot seeing that  prior to 2012 no one from Ryerson got into dental school at uoft or uwo. I looked up one of the students from the class of 2018 at UWO (Ryerson publishes from all their science programs everyone who has received honour roll for that year, online) and this student only made honour roll ONCE through out her 4 years of education at Ryerson meaning that her GPA was at least 3.5 out of a 4.33 for that academic year, that's not even considered an 'A' , since Ryerson an 'A' starts at 3.6.

 

And this is the basic criteria to get onto Ryerson's dean's list

 

Dean's List

Undergraduate students in our Faculty who have achieved the highest level of academic excellence in a given academic year will be placed on the Dean's List.

Dean's List Criteria

To be eligible for consideration for the Dean's List in the Faculty of Engineering, Architecture and Science, undergraduate students must:

  1. Carry an average unit load of 4.0 billing units or higher for the two terms of the academic year under consideration (Fall and Winter). 
  2. Obtain a minimum GPA of 3.5 for the academic year under consideration. The minimum GPA applies for both the Fall and Winter terms exclusively, in addition to the student's overall GPA for the year. 
  3. Obtain passing grades in all courses and a clear academic standing for both terms.
  4. Not have received any Disciplinary Notations (DNs) while at Ryerson.
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To say that there should be less applicants to dental school bc dentistry as a career is not worth it anymore is a very simplified way of looking at things. The reason being simple, a lot of students don't know what they are getting themselves in to. Yes they may talk to dentists but they won't get a feel for what it's really like until they start practicing. These students are focused on the prestige and the income potential...the key word is potential not guarantee and so as long as dental schools in Canada keep glorifying their schools *cough cough UWO* then it will entice students to apply. Why I mention UWO, apparently this year's white coat ceremony for dentists was combined with the MDs, which I find utterly pointless just another way to say oh look dentists are just as good and prestigious as doctors, please hand over your money to use so we can make you into another average dentist just like the rest of us. 

UWO does white coat ceremonies?

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Getting into dentistry is becoming such a joke, now I see people getting in from Ryerson University. People are saying it's getting more competitive but I don't think so, I'm not sure about Uoft but I'm speaking with respect to UWO.  UWO looks at your top 2 years and I know so many people taking so many elective courses to bring up their GPAs and use that as their top two years. No offence but Ryerson???? c'mon seriously. Ryerson is not a strong university for sciences, I remember at once point they didn't even have a decent science program and now everyone is taking their ochem pre-req at Ryerson U bc it's so easy and now I'm see more and more students from Ryerson U getting into dental school. In the last 4 years about 3 students, and relatively speaking that's a lot seeing that  prior to 2012 no one from Ryerson got into dental school at uoft or uwo. I looked up one of the students from the class of 2018 at UWO (Ryerson publishes from all their science programs everyone who has received honour roll for that year, online) and this student only made honour roll ONCE through out her 4 years of education at Ryerson meaning that her GPA was at least 3.5 out of a 4.33 for that academic year, that's not even considered an 'A' , since Ryerson an 'A' starts at 3.6.

 

And this is the basic criteria to get onto Ryerson's dean's list

 

Dean's List

Undergraduate students in our Faculty who have achieved the highest level of academic excellence in a given academic year will be placed on the Dean's List.

Dean's List Criteria

To be eligible for consideration for the Dean's List in the Faculty of Engineering, Architecture and Science, undergraduate students must:

  1. Carry an average unit load of 4.0 billing units or higher for the two terms of the academic year under consideration (Fall and Winter). 
  2. Obtain a minimum GPA of 3.5 for the academic year under consideration. The minimum GPA applies for both the Fall and Winter terms exclusively, in addition to the student's overall GPA for the year. 
  3. Obtain passing grades in all courses and a clear academic standing for both terms.
  4. Not have received any Disciplinary Notations (DNs) while at Ryerson.

 

People do this to get into med school too. It isn't exclusive to dent

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People do this to get into med school too. It isn't exclusive to dent

I agree, I'm not sure how it is in Quebec, but looking at the  med schools in Ontario, I don't know of one who did their undergrad at Ryerson University. But again I'm not 100% of this but from what I have seen this seems to be the case. 

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Getting into dentistry is becoming such a joke, now I see people getting in from Ryerson University. People are saying it's getting more competitive but I don't think so, I'm not sure about Uoft but I'm speaking with respect to UWO.  UWO looks at your top 2 years and I know so many people taking so many elective courses to bring up their GPAs and use that as their top two years. No offence but Ryerson???? c'mon seriously. Ryerson is not a strong university for sciences, I remember at once point they didn't even have a decent science program and now everyone is taking their ochem pre-req at Ryerson U bc it's so easy and now I'm see more and more students from Ryerson U getting into dental school. In the last 4 years about 3 students, and relatively speaking that's a lot seeing that  prior to 2012 no one from Ryerson got into dental school at uoft or uwo. I looked up one of the students from the class of 2018 at UWO (Ryerson publishes from all their science programs everyone who has received honour roll for that year, online) and this student only made honour roll ONCE through out her 4 years of education at Ryerson meaning that her GPA was at least 3.5 out of a 4.33 for that academic year, that's not even considered an 'A' , since Ryerson an 'A' starts at 3.6.

 

And this is the basic criteria to get onto Ryerson's dean's list

 

Dean's List

Undergraduate students in our Faculty who have achieved the highest level of academic excellence in a given academic year will be placed on the Dean's List.

Dean's List Criteria

To be eligible for consideration for the Dean's List in the Faculty of Engineering, Architecture and Science, undergraduate students must:

  1. Carry an average unit load of 4.0 billing units or higher for the two terms of the academic year under consideration (Fall and Winter). 
  2. Obtain a minimum GPA of 3.5 for the academic year under consideration. The minimum GPA applies for both the Fall and Winter terms exclusively, in addition to the student's overall GPA for the year. 
  3. Obtain passing grades in all courses and a clear academic standing for both terms.
  4. Not have received any Disciplinary Notations (DNs) while at Ryerson.

 

Why are you so salty? Just focus on yourself and stop worrying about everyone else.

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Why are you so salty? Just focus on yourself and stop worrying about everyone else.

 

I am focused on myself, and it is because of this focus on myself including my profession I am saying this. facts are facts and they need to be stated..we can't afford more mediocre people being pumped into a profession that is steadily losing it's credibility. 

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Getting into dentistry is becoming such a joke, now I see people getting in from Ryerson University. People are saying it's getting more competitive but I don't think so, I'm not sure about Uoft but I'm speaking with respect to UWO.  UWO looks at your top 2 years and I know so many people taking so many elective courses to bring up their GPAs and use that as their top two years. No offence but Ryerson???? c'mon seriously. Ryerson is not a strong university for sciences, I remember at once point they didn't even have a decent science program and now everyone is taking their ochem pre-req at Ryerson U bc it's so easy and now I'm see more and more students from Ryerson U getting into dental school. In the last 4 years about 3 students, and relatively speaking that's a lot seeing that  prior to 2012 no one from Ryerson got into dental school at uoft or uwo. I looked up one of the students from the class of 2018 at UWO (Ryerson publishes from all their science programs everyone who has received honour roll for that year, online) and this student only made honour roll ONCE through out her 4 years of education at Ryerson meaning that her GPA was at least 3.5 out of a 4.33 for that academic year, that's not even considered an 'A' , since Ryerson an 'A' starts at 3.6.

 

And this is the basic criteria to get onto Ryerson's dean's list

 

Dean's List

Undergraduate students in our Faculty who have achieved the highest level of academic excellence in a given academic year will be placed on the Dean's List.

Dean's List Criteria

To be eligible for consideration for the Dean's List in the Faculty of Engineering, Architecture and Science, undergraduate students must:

  1. Carry an average unit load of 4.0 billing units or higher for the two terms of the academic year under consideration (Fall and Winter). 
  2. Obtain a minimum GPA of 3.5 for the academic year under consideration. The minimum GPA applies for both the Fall and Winter terms exclusively, in addition to the student's overall GPA for the year. 
  3. Obtain passing grades in all courses and a clear academic standing for both terms.
  4. Not have received any Disciplinary Notations (DNs) while at Ryerson.

 

I do not understand why you are so bitter towards Ryerson and it's graduates. They are a legitimate university, their grading schemes are acceptable for application to medicine and dentistry, they have strong engineering programs and increasingly tight scientific research connections with St. Mike's Hospital and others.

 

Clearly UWO dent admissions saw this woman's application and thought she was highly qualified for entry into dental school, your comprehensive analysis of her honour roll record notwithstanding.

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I do not understand why you are so bitter towards Ryerson and it's graduates. They are a legitimate university, their grading schemes are acceptable for application to medicine and dentistry, they have strong engineering programs and increasingly tight scientific research connections with St. Mike's Hospital and others.

 

Clearly UWO dent admissions saw this woman's application and thought she was highly qualified for entry into dental school, your comprehensive analysis of her honour roll record notwithstanding.

 

Clearly you failed to read the first part of my post...there are ways around it, it's easy... what this applicant probably did was stay back a year, took some electives and included that in her top two years to gain entry. I was in the UWO dental system I've seen how flawed the system is so please do not sit here and try to lecture me on the legitimacy of their admissions. I was on the interview panel and saw how some interviewers gave high rankings based on whether they liked a person or not and not on the merit of how they answered the questions at their interviews.  Also please save yourself the embarrassment and not try to persuade anyone that Ryerson is top tier university, it's accredited and that's about it. We all know top engineering goes to Waterloo and top research especially with teaching hospitals goes to Uoft, but I'm not really going to go off on a tangent and start discussing which university is the best at what.  Anyways, you are just getting off topic I stated what exists and the unfairness in the system. Instead of trying to defend the system a change should be made. 

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Clearly you failed to read the first part of my post...there are ways around it, it's easy... what this applicant probably did was stay back a year, took some electives and included that in her top two years to gain entry. I was in the UWO dental system I've seen how flawed the system is so please do not sit here and try to lecture me on the legitimacy of their admissions. I was on the interview panel and saw how some interviewers gave high rankings based on whether they liked a person or not and not on the merit of how they answered the questions at their interviews.  Also please save yourself the embarrassment and not try to persuade anyone that Ryerson is top tier university, it's accredited and that's about it. We all know top engineering goes to Waterloo and top research especially with teaching hospitals goes to Uoft, but I'm not really going to go off on a tangent and start discussing which university is the best at what.  Anyways, you are just getting off topic I stated what exists and the unfairness in the system. Instead of trying to defend the system a change should be made. 

Fair enough, please specify what changes you would like to see made based on your experience.

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Fair enough, please specify what changes you would like to see made based on your experience.

 

I'm more focused on taking a stance on foreign trained dentists and american trained dentists gaining acceptance into Canada. More of the issue of over saturation stems from that. But as it relates to my previous post and the changes that need to be done; first of all UWO needs to make their admission requirements a little more structured and harder. Looking at your top two years, no matter if it's your first second or 10th year and one single DAT cut-off to gain an interview is unacceptable. As I eluded to before, such a requirement is easily obtainable in various ways, this is not to say people who have gone to UWO are all bad, there are exceptionally bright students who have attended the dental program and are excellent practitioners. Secondly, the interview process is too subjective; all interviewers one hour prior to the interviews are given a brief tutorial on how to interview and that's it. That means there are people interviewing potential dental students, who have never interviewed in their life and the only understanding of the interview process they have, they just learned 1 hour prior. Seems very flawed in my opinion. 

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I'm more focused on taking a stance on foreign trained dentists and american trained dentists gaining acceptance into Canada. More of the issue of over saturation stems from that. But as it relates to my previous post and the changes that need to be done; first of all UWO needs to make their admission requirements a little more structured and harder. Looking at your top two years, no matter if it's your first second or 10th year and one single DAT cut-off to gain an interview is unacceptable. As I eluded to before, such a requirement is easily obtainable in various ways, this is not to say people who have gone to UWO are all bad, there are exceptionally bright students who have attended the dental program and are excellent practitioners. Secondly, the interview process is too subjective; all interviewers one hour prior to the interviews are given a brief tutorial on how to interview and that's it. That means there are people interviewing potential dental students, who have never interviewed in their life and the only understanding of the interview process they have, they just learned 1 hour prior. Seems very flawed in my opinion. 

Generally speaking, I agree with you. See what can happen when you use full sentences not focused on Ryerson to explain yourself!  :)

 

Now comes the hard part, making what you suggested happen.

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Generally speaking, I agree with you. See what can happen when you use full sentences not focused on Ryerson to explain yourself!  :)

 

Now comes the hard part, making what you suggested happen.

 

Yes to implement these changes I've suggested is very difficult. As I have said in previous posts, not sure if it was in this thread or another, change has to begin with the public. As long as the public sees no issues with the over saturation (which I see no reason they would since more dentists means more opportunity to shop around) then change will not be implemented. Plus dentists' salaries are not paid by the government therefore (aside from the social dental services that are provided) therefore there's really no need for them to get involved to help our cause. With respect to the admission process, corruption will exist, corruption and unfairness exists in everything really, so as long as there is rules and protocols there are people who want to break them. What we have to show is that efficacy of treatment for our patients and their safety are at risk as a result of this over saturation. If dentists can show this correlation and explain how this has come about because of this over saturation then change can at least begin to happen.  

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I'm more focused on taking a stance on foreign trained dentists and american trained dentists gaining acceptance into Canada. More of the issue of over saturation stems from that. But as it relates to my previous post and the changes that need to be done; first of all UWO needs to make their admission requirements a little more structured and harder. Looking at your top two years, no matter if it's your first second or 10th year and one single DAT cut-off to gain an interview is unacceptable. As I eluded to before, such a requirement is easily obtainable in various ways, this is not to say people who have gone to UWO are all bad, there are exceptionally bright students who have attended the dental program and are excellent practitioners. Secondly, the interview process is too subjective; all interviewers one hour prior to the interviews are given a brief tutorial on how to interview and that's it. That means there are people interviewing potential dental students, who have never interviewed in their life and the only understanding of the interview process they have, they just learned 1 hour prior. Seems very flawed in my opinion.

But lets say if one applicant gave very good answers to the CDA questions, but was just very socially awkward and generally uncomfortable to be around, whereas another applicant gave worse answers to the CDA questions but was much more personable and charismatic. Which one would be better able to make their patients feel comfortable in high-stress environments, such as a dental clinic? I'd personally say the latter would be a better dentist than the first.

 

Also, just asking for my own knowledge, is the UWO interview closed or open book?

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But lets say if one applicant gave very good answers to the CDA questions, but was just very socially awkward and generally uncomfortable to be around, whereas another applicant gave worse answers to the CDA questions but was much more personable and charismatic. Which one would be better able to make their patients feel comfortable in high-stress environments, such as a dental clinic? I'd personally say the latter would be a better dentist than the first.

 

Also, just asking for my own knowledge, is the UWO interview closed or open book?

 

I'm not sure what the definition of a closed or open book interview is. However, the UWO dental school interview is based on about 200 CDA based structured questions. Interviewers before the the interview sit together choose x number of those questions to use. When I interviewed, to be more objective and fair we as a group of interviewers used the same x amount of questions for each candidate however some others did not. Each question was marked on  certain criteria. There is a box at the end of the interview score sheet where interviews can write comments about how they think the candidate will fair in dental school and if you would recommend them for the program. So going back to the first part of your comment, you can write how you feel about the candidate, however when I was interviewing there were other interviewers who were still scoring lower on the objective questions even though the candidate was hitting almost on all the points just bc they didn't like the candidate or the felt the candidate was too rehearsed etc. Which is unfair. It's like saying someone studied a lot and their questions on the exam even though are correct should be given a lower score because they studied too much. 

*I did not want to get into too much detail about the interview since I do not want to break any confidentiality agreements

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But lets say if one applicant gave very good answers to the CDA questions, but was just very socially awkward and generally uncomfortable to be around, whereas another applicant gave worse answers to the CDA questions but was much more personable and charismatic. Which one would be better able to make their patients feel comfortable in high-stress environments, such as a dental clinic? I'd personally say the latter would be a better dentist than the first.

 

Also, just asking for my own knowledge, is the UWO interview closed or open book?

Your posts come off as troll-like or willfully naive and inexperienced. The person that starts dental or medical school is very different then the one who finishes.

 

You could randomly pick your class from the shortlisted interview pool and it wouldn't make much difference in the overall quality of dentist you output. No one at that point is any better than their fellow interviewee. There are simply more qualified applicants than spots.

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Your posts come off as troll-like or willfully naive and inexperienced. The person that starts dental or medical school is very different then the one who finishes.

 

You could randomly pick your class from the shortlisted interview pool and it wouldn't make much difference in the overall quality of dentist you output. No one at that point is any better than their fellow interviewee. There are simply more qualified applicants than spots.

I can assure you I'm not trolling. I was attempting to maybe a provide an explanation for the subjective nature of these interviews, but yea, I would say I am pretty inexperienced right now since this is my first year applying to dental schools, so forgive me. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi All,

 

We're all in this together.

 

I'm not advocating to stop the equivalency process or the accreditation of Australian and NZ schools. I'm advocating for output regulation.

 

The oversupply of dentists in Canada is already becoming a problem for all dentists especially the young grads.

 

The oversupply of dentists will result in:

1. Difficulty finding good associateships.

2. Difficulty finding a good location to build your office.

3. Difficulty finding a practice to purchase at fair market value. You'll need to bid higher and pay above the fair value of the practice.

4. Building costs for dental clinics will be higher because landlords, contractors and supply companies will have more bargaining power over dentists.

5. Difficulty finding and retaining competent staff. You might have to pay them a lot more, which drives up overhead.

6. Difficulty finding new patients.

 

I speak from experience having gone through all of those difficulties.

 

What have I done? I have actually met with my MP and he sent a letter to the Minister of Health and the Minister of Immigration about this matter.

 

However one letter from one concerned dentist is NOT enough. You should do the same too. If you need ideas, go to my blog: www.dentistryincanada.org

 

 

DMD 2012

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I also talked to our association in Alberta and they said that they have no control over the equivalency process and it's here to stay.

 

This means that there will be A LOT of dentists who get their licenses through the equivalency process, which is getting easier and easier.

 

I think Canadians who had to go to an accredited school need to lobby the federal government. This means talking to the MPs and maybe taking legal action.

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Your posts come off as troll-like or willfully naive and inexperienced. The person that starts dental or medical school is very different then the one who finishes.

 

You could randomly pick your class from the shortlisted interview pool and it wouldn't make much difference in the overall quality of dentist you output. No one at that point is any better than their fellow interviewee. There are simply more qualified applicants than spots.

 I disagree Commons. As individuals get older their personalities become more fixed. If you start dental school as an awkward, unethical individual you are more likely to end it as so. Sure you're correct in saying people are not the same post education but the change in disposition is not to significant: I am referring to core aspects of one self (empathy) not skills we learn through repetition such as critical thinking. Any intelligent individual can walk through a CDA.

 

Perhaps you should learn to respect others opinions. This PM101 site is full of first time applicants thus they will tend to lack experience. Would you tell a patient they seem naive when they express themselves in a domain they may know little about? You seem to have lots of experience. Use this to teach not criticize. 

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I saw this article and thought it may pertain to this discussion. The data is from 2011 but it may still be relevant. The average annual income of graduates 6 months post graduation and 2 years is a lot lower than what I have heard a lot of dental students expect they'll make.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/guess-which-degrees-practically-guarantee-a-job-and-a-big-salary/article20347971/

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I saw this article and thought it may pertain to this discussion. The data is from 2011 but it may still be relevant. The average annual income of graduates 6 months post graduation and 2 years is a lot lower than what I have heard a lot of dental students expect they'll make.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/guess-which-degrees-practically-guarantee-a-job-and-a-big-salary/article20347971/

 

again....this comes around full circle to numerous topics on this. 

 

The salary of a dentist varies A LOT. Why? It depends on the type of work that you do. A recent grad that works for someone under a commission is def not going to make 250k in their first year or ever depending on what type of contract they're on. 

 

That being said: some dental students have parents that are dentists where they have an established patient basis as well as the ground work built up for them. I.e they don't have to find office space, invest in equipment. It's all there for them, all they do is just walk in and add to the incoming that they office is billing. 

Cases like these, the income is going to be a lot different than a recent grad working for someone else. 

 

Also, depends on the work that you do as well. If you're a dentist that does a lot of cosmetic dentistry and you have a lot of patients that are actively seeking you for cosmetic work then yes you can make quite a bit depending on what you do. A dentist that does 5-6 crowns a day with CAD-CAM and veneers is going to have a different income than the dentist that does only checkup and fillings and the occasional crown or endo. 

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