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whatdoido

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  1. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from popfossa in U of T vs U of O Med   
    toronto is way more expensive, much busier, the culture at the school is honestly a bit toxic, and the program is much more demanding than other ontario schools
    ottawa is chill, both in weather and attitude
    i would go to ottawa
    I had this choice myself last year, and despite how much I really really loved Toronto as a city, I knew that the school's hypercompetitiveness/gunner culture was not for me. i'm much happier at a more chill program where I still have time and freedom to pursue other things outside of medicine.
  2. Like
    whatdoido reacted to premed72 in Roommates or no roommates?   
    I personally love living on my own. I cant see myself living with anyone else. I need the privacy and space. I like my own quiet time, especially while studying or when I feel like staring at a wall for 2 hours or even if I just want to have a beer on the weekend. I like my environment clean and orderly and it needs to have "my vibe", this isn't always feasible with a roommate that has other priorities. 
    Yes things cost more (usually just rent costs tbh) but honestly not having to worry about your buddy not throwing his trash away makes it worth it imo. I can see the loneliness thing being a real fact to consider, everyone handles isolation differently. I think being busy with school and then using my down time to do activities with my buddies back home really helps. So I never really feel lonely at all. But everyone is different with this.
    Again, theres pros and cons, for me and my personality I think there's more pros to live on my own. It depends on who you are as a person though. 
     
  3. Like
    whatdoido reacted to gogogo in Learning Nothing in Clerkship   
    I agree with you, medmedmed132. It's a patronizing waste of time how some staff/rotations treat you. I've sat in the OR watching 1-4 hour surgeries with zero acknowledgment by the staff. I can't ask questions because he's/she's busy teaching the resident/fellow, and besides, I don't care for surgery so I don't have many questions to ask. Some will respond that you need to "show initiative," but that's the typical mindset that the system is always right and we are always wrong. Showing initiative doesn't work when you have staff that don't care to teach you and either give you a few words when answering your questions or just tell you that you should read about it when you bring up a question. I have spent 10-hour shifts just following staff around and they never acknowledged me. Like skyuppercutt said, it's even worse when you consider that you're paying for this.
    Learning about bread and butter clinical presentations does happen in any rotation, I agree, but it's extremely inefficient to learn it through service-based rotations like surgery. There is no need to watch hours long surgeries to "understand" a case better. I could learn much more efficiently at home or in services that are actually relevant to my career goals. Same goes for the practical skills of learning to write notes or prescriptions. After a few dictations in ortho, I realized that all I'm doing is dictating 25% of the staff's appointments for the day and not learning anything myself (because I was seeing the same presentations all day).
    So anyway, I sympathize with you. I just keep reminding myself that if I put up with this, it'll be another few years and I'll be making 200k+ in a job that's meaningful and impactful. I've also stopped being 200% polite/respectful/deferential to staff when I realize that they're not going to be adding value to my learning (because they don't care to teach). I'll still be professional, but I don't follow them around and when there's downtime, I just ask them if I can study on my phone and they're fine with it. I also sometimes say no to requests if they say that it's my choice (e.g., I've said I don't want to scrub in for a c-section because I've already seen it a few times). This hasn't affected my evaluations. Part of clerkship, I think, is learning how to act like an adult in a workplace, and if you do that correctly, I think you're unassailable for making time for your own learning.
  4. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Organic Chemistry in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  5. Like
    whatdoido reacted to frenchpress in What’s maximum number of hours that clinical clerk can work per week?   
    Most of the posters are sharing their own experiences, and have been quite polite in response to your initial disbelief - they’ve elaborated, given examples and context, etc. In response, you’re talking down to people and trying to claim that that lived experience isn’t valid evidence or can’t possibly be true. 
    I am not feeling as diplomatic as @JohnGrisham today. It’s painfully ironic that you’re suggesting others need to have an open mind, when you’re being completely closed minded to the possibility that your expectations might not be in line with the reality of what many of us have gone through in medical school and residency. If this is how you react to people who are trying to express their lived experience to you, especially in an area in which you don’t know that much about, how will you deal with patients? Will you also be prone to second guess everything your patients tell you, because you have masters degree and you know better? Or will you just rudely give them a pass because they “sound young”? For someone who claims to be a mature student, you’re coming off as pretty immature and arrogant.   
  6. Like
    whatdoido reacted to birdy21 in What’s maximum number of hours that clinical clerk can work per week?   
    Thank you for the unsolicited insights on patient care from a premed student, lmao.
  7. Like
    whatdoido reacted to Sunshine! in What’s maximum number of hours that clinical clerk can work per week?   
    Any other first year med students panicking reading this thread? I don't know how to function on less than 8hrs of sleep hahaha!
  8. Thanks
    whatdoido reacted to shikimate in Rank the 4 years of medical school from easiest to hardest   
    1st (easiest) > 4th > 2nd > 3rd
    1st (easiest):
    you feel like a million bucks going to medical school,
    spend the summer lounging and dipping in a pool;
    white coat ceremony you feel ever so  blessed,
    smile for camera because you are sharply dressed.
    banks eager to loan you 250K at less than prime,
    no longer rely on ramen counting nickels and dime;
    no need to aim for 4, because courses are all pass or fail,
    fancy yourself high class reading "Desire Caught by the Tail". 
    4th (not bad)
    fall of 4th year is a hectic and busy with electives,
    going new places and taking staff's stupid directives;
    feeling good you're gonna match to your first,
    hiphop to the hospital feeding that energy burst.
    come carms panic set in and not feeling so hot,
    worry not match, unemployed and you'll go rot;
    match day, and you get your second prize,
    hey, at least my debt is only half your size.
    2nd (so so):
    excitement of first year is already wearing thin,
    write a research paper only to throw it in the bin;
    do observership and feel like senior resident's tool,
    have no answer to the questions and look like a fool.
    go on vacation this summer and LOC is getting tight,
    can't repay, you know who'll call you day and night;
    how come everyone else know what they'll do?
    not match, and my pants will be soiled by poo.
    3rd (worst):
    first day at the hospital don't know where things lie,
    hyperventilate at arounds feeling you are gonna die;
    get asked to name 20 diseases, you can only name seven,
    the other 13? they are named after guys already in heaven.
    try to set up electives at some distant faraway land,
    COVID hit, and they might as well chop off my hand;
    finally finished calls and clerkship is coming to a close,
    better ace my electives or gonna regret the life I chose.
     
     
     
     
  9. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from sorrynotsorry in Random question   
    it depends on the person. I'm in a very diverse group of friends. i find that POC tend to intermix more, though. there's a lot of white people who only hang out with white people at my school... whether it's a conscious decision or not, i dunno
  10. Like
    whatdoido reacted to 1D7 in Current CaRMS Competitiveness - Schools and Specialties   
    Many of us entered medicine to get away from H&E staining that we encountered in the labs. Not entirely surprising.
  11. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from FifthCycle in Getting a haircut pre-interview?   
    It's not a silly question. Some will probably come here and tell you that you won't be judged on your hair. The reality is many of your interviewers (especially the older ones) may think untraditional hairstyles are unprofessional/unseemingly/unfitting for a future physician. they won't explicitly say or write this when evaluating your interview performance, but it could totally play a factor, even subconsciously. I'd say just get any standard "professional" haircut. you can manbun it and dye it pink once you've got the acceptance.
  12. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from garceyues in Getting a haircut pre-interview?   
    It's not a silly question. Some will probably come here and tell you that you won't be judged on your hair. The reality is many of your interviewers (especially the older ones) may think untraditional hairstyles are unprofessional/unseemingly/unfitting for a future physician. they won't explicitly say or write this when evaluating your interview performance, but it could totally play a factor, even subconsciously. I'd say just get any standard "professional" haircut. you can manbun it and dye it pink once you've got the acceptance.
  13. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from premed1989 in Nigerian International medical student at uoft asks for $92,000 on Gofundme (currently at $124,000)   
    jealousy isn't a good look. none of this is a good look. something about a future physician being bitter over a marginalized and disadvantaged immigrant receiving support and financial help really doesn't sit well with me.
  14. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from FingersCrossedPls in Nigerian International medical student at uoft asks for $92,000 on Gofundme (currently at $124,000)   
    jealousy isn't a good look. none of this is a good look. something about a future physician being bitter over a marginalized and disadvantaged immigrant receiving support and financial help really doesn't sit well with me.
  15. Like
    whatdoido reacted to honeymoon in Nigerian International medical student at uoft asks for $92,000 on Gofundme (currently at $124,000)   
    thanks for posting! just pitched in a little as well
  16. Like
    whatdoido reacted to bearded frog in Does it seem like less people are interested in surgery now?   
    A better question would be "Why is anyone interested in surgery?"
  17. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from neurologist19 in (UBC mostly) Is it a red flag that I am ready to jump ship out of my second undergraduate if I get admission to medical school?   
    No, I don't think so. Schools let you apply in third year with the understanding that if you are accepted, you leave undergrad to enter med. If your end goal is a career in medicine, it makes perfect sense you'd cut a comparatively useless Bsc short to get to med school.
  18. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Mel96b in Bad Grade   
    I think the others are being too credulous in the idea that professors will always be beacons of justice and unbiasedness and what you got is what you deserve. I have certainly seen professors take a disliking to many students, especially in smaller classes, and their grades do suffer as a result. Yes, most professors do not have the time or energy for silly vendettas and personal biases, but they're still human in the end and it's possible you got treated unfairly. 
    However, please understand that you will look foolish and overly neurotic (to the point of self-detriment, not in the cutesy premed way) if you write an academic explanation essay for ONE B. Come on. Almost every friend I went to undergrad with and went on to med has several Bs and even Cs. Don't let this get to you, and good luck with your applications.
  19. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from conditional knockout in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  20. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from BSLM13 in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  21. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Mathmaximum in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  22. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from MD_Dream97 in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  23. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Redpill in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  24. Like
    whatdoido reacted to honeymoon in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    thank you for making this thread. i honestly relate to it so much. just a quick note- there is a difference between wanting something and earning it and those who earn it should feel no guilt over reaching that goal over those who "want" it more
  25. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Redpill in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
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