Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

whatdoido

Members
  • Content Count

    55
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    2

Reputation Activity

  1. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from BSLM13 in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  2. Like
    whatdoido reacted to honeymoon in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    thank you for making this thread. i honestly relate to it so much. just a quick note- there is a difference between wanting something and earning it and those who earn it should feel no guilt over reaching that goal over those who "want" it more
  3. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Organic Chemistry in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  4. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Mathmaximum in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  5. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from MD_Dream97 in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  6. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from conditional knockout in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  7. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Redpill in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  8. Like
    whatdoido reacted to Pterygoid in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    M1 here; I agree with you completely. I don't subscribe to the notion that my life must revolve around my patients and communities. It's a fantastic career that can be enjoyed without an undying passion for (or obsession with) medicine. God forbid you prioritize your family and kids.
  9. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from frenchpress in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  10. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Redpill in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  11. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from honeymoon in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  12. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from honeymoon in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  13. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from cotecc in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  14. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Coldery in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  15. Confused
    whatdoido reacted to Butterfly_ in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    It’s kind of sad when there’s so many people who dream to be doctors only to get their spot beaten by someone who thinks of it as purely a job. Lack of passion can easily lead to job dissatisfaction and burnout.l. I’ve seen some really burnout doctors and they hate coming to work. Getting stuck working or learning from them is freaking horrible , for everyone—patients, nurses, medical admin, learners, colleagues etc.
    Also the concept of “coasting” through medicine is just freaking aggravating. It’s this kind of attitude that creates shitty doctors.

    furthermore, don’t underestimate the difficulties of family medicine. It’s an amazing specialty that requires ALOT of work and relationship building.
    So please do something else and leave the spot to someone who is passionate.
  16. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from QueenStan in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Sorry, but how badly you want something has very little correlation with whether or not you "deserve" it over any other applicant and certainly not whether you'll be any good at it. Many people dream about becoming famous actors or singers, too, and they are constantly beaten out by the millions of others who share the same dream as well as those who were just sort of given the opportunity. Barring nepotism/unfair advantages, it's neither fair nor unfair, it's just the way it is. Sad, fine, but it's foolish to suggest that you need to be bouncing up and down at the thought of practicing medicine to be any more qualified to be a good doctor than someone who sees it as simply a job. You wouldn't trust an engineer who is building a bridge that will support dozens of cars over a river because he sees his job as simply a job? I don't care whether or not he's passionate about calculating the load a bridge can take. I care that he's able to effectively do his job. I know plenty of people I spent undergrad with who wanted nothing more than to be doctors who would be downright awful at it, either because they're not very good at being empathetic, or because they simply weren't very good at science. It is sad that they can't fulfill their dreams, yes, but I'd rather have a doctor who had the academic rigour necessary to properly diagnose me than someone who was admitted simply because they are "so intensely passionate about helping others and practicing medicine." If it comes down to two people at the top of the interview list, then yes, it's a coin flip, but there's a 99% chance they're equally capable and deserving regardless of their differing passion.
    From personal anecdotes as well as dozens of hours reading into this, doctors who hate coming to work are usually those who are trapped by debt (not an enormous problem after a couple of years of practice in Canada), those in inhumanely demanding residencies or specialities that I personally will never go near, and those who went into it thinking it was their predestined magical fate and get slapped by the harsh bureaucratic and futile reality of medicine (hint: it's not all that great, no matter how much ~passion~ you have).
    Anyways, I'm not sure why the idea of "coasting" aggravates you? I prefaced that several times in my previous posts by saying it's still a LOT of hard work. There's still an enormous volume of material to learn and getting a 70% means you know the majority of it. Just because I'm not going to subscribe to the ridiculous notion that my entire life needs to be living and breathing medicine and studying at every second or doing observerships or research or extra readings or extra time in the clinic et cetera doesn't mean I'm going to make a bad doctor. I don't need that stuff for the job I want to do, so why do it? That's exactly the kind of awful rhetoric that lead to the foolish idea that we need to be martyrs for our patients and for the art of medicine. The same ideals and notions that hospital admins (who love the incredibly cheap resident labour) and attendings (who went through the same thing and are bitter and want to dish it out on the next generation) perpetuate that lead to the inhumane residencies, the 80 hour work weeks, the day after day of 24-hour call with no sleep, the extremely high burnout, depression, job dissatisfaction, and suicide. Almost every other field has invariably better work-life balance- why can't we? I have a life outside of medicine and I enjoy it very much and you're damn right I'm not going to spend one second longer than I need to learning to be a good doctor. If that aggravates you, then I really don't care, and you're exactly part of the problem I dreaded when I thought about a career in medicine.
    Medicine is a job. For some it's a passion, for others a calling, but at the end of the day, it's a job. A stable, high paying one that requires a lot of training, intelligence, and discipline. There's ample time to kick out bad seeds, either during the extremely competitive admissions process, during medical school, residency... *especially* in today's hypercompetitive system. If you're in an MD program, and especially if you successfully complete residency, it means you more likely than not have the skills and character required to be a good doctor. I highly doubt anyone who would genuinely make a bad doctor could brute force their way through premed, volunteering/ECs, the MCAT, applications, ethics tests, interviews, med school, and residency. But if you think everybody in medicine is just teeming with constant uncontainable passion and excitement, you're sorely mistaken and living in quite an idyllic world.
  17. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from oneday1 in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    What about family med? Just aim to pass in med school, the residency is much, much less grueling than most other specialties, and you can work part time forever and still make well above the average Canadian income. Is the 6-year training that hard if you're aiming to coast?
  18. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Coldery in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  19. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from Pterygoid in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    Med school, Y1. I'm in the exact same boat as you, OP, and I've posted about this a lot on other forums. I've done a ton of research on this subject and to be frank, I didn't really want to go to med school because I do not have this "burning passion" everyone says you need to have (and what the hell everyone claims to be so excited about in medicine, I'll never truly understand). My passions lie in other fields, a lot of them creative (read: no money, no job prospects, do what you love but be broke forever), some of them more suited to a sustainable and stable lifestyle (computer science, webdev, data science). 
    However, med school itself is literally a lottery win here in Canada. Consider the amount of people who apply and how little people actually get in. There's a reason for this. The career is a ticket to an extremely stable job *anywhere* in Canada (I'd wager you could probably find a job almost anywhere in the world). Not only that, but you're getting remunerated a substantial amount of money (which is fair given what it takes to even begin practicing). If you have even a modicum of interest in the material and won't hate the job to the point where you harm your patients or yourself, I think it's worth it. If you have the intelligence and required character traits and have already put in the work to be admitted (a very high GPA, stellar ECs/volunteerism, the MCAT, etc.), it's hard to turn down- at least it was for me, anyways.
    For instance, consider that med in Canada is pass/fail. As long as you have some natural ability to retain information easily (i.e., most successful admits), you don't need to kill yourself studying to just pass (it's been ~4 weeks and I've been doing fine with like, 10 hours a week). You don't need to spend hours doing research and ECs to make yourself competitive for a specialty where, after 5 years, you'll have to spend another 2 in fellowship to *then* get a job. You can "coast" (I mean, it'll still be hard work, especially around exam times and during clerkship) and finish in 6 years with a job anywhere you want helping people, which in of itself is quite rewarding. Also consider that the debt we take on is significantly lower than in the US, which makes this a financially sound choice- I certainly wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't in Canada (also, family physicians are paid much more here than in the states).
    And once you're there, immediately switch over to part-time work, work for 2-3 days a week, earn higher than the average Canadian household income, and have the rest of the week for your passions/interests. Or be a hospitalist and work 7 days on, 7 days off and have every other week off for what makes you happier than medicine. Or do emergency med and work what turns out to be 6 months out of the year and still make more than any other full time job. Or open your own clinic and take on 12 hour days if you want and then go to the hospital afterwards to round if that's your thing. The amount of flexibility is unprecedented. Yes, you can begin making a salary that rivals a physicians' take-home (after billing, overhead, taxes) in data science or finance or whatever, but you'll still probably be working 50-60 hours a week until the day you retire.
    Look, I don't think you will ever get through a surgical residency or even an internal medicine residency (80 hour work weeks on top of studying on top of 4 day 24hr call = no free time, no social life, no sleep...for 5 years) without some underlying passion- the people who *do* have the passion almost all burn out and become husks of themselves those 3-7+ years. I already know that's not the life I want or desire, I don't care how interesting I think one particular body system is.
    Re: residency. I've heard mixed things about family med residencies. One thing I will say for sure is that the vast majority of the programs are less intense than your average specialty. I believe the fam med with a +1 in emergency med is actually quite stressful and in its own boat. Other +1s or more prestigious family med programs might be similar in that regard. If you're rural, you might have a lot more hours simply because they just need the manpower (just like a family doc in a rural setting works 60+ hours a week because who else is gonna serve the entire community?). And finally, don't forget it's two years compared to the 3-7+ in other specialties. I can take 80 hour work weeks on no sleep for two years, but 5? Forget it.
    Re: being a good doctor- you still need to know enough to pass, which means you need to understand and critically apply the information to achieve at least a 70% grade. A lot of what we learn in med school becomes completely irrelevant for the specialty you choose. You'll know enough to be a good doctor so long as you have all the other necessary traits- compassion, empathy, the ability to refresh on material and learn new material over the years, etc. Again, if you have no "passion" to the point where you're going to be a bad doctor (rude to your patients, harming them, etc.) and miserable all day, then no, don't do it.
    Anyways, PM me if you want to talk more. I completely empathize with your position, and I know more than anyone there's an enormous shortage of people in our field who share the same worries (at least premeds and pre-M3s; more join our boat when they realize medicine isn't really their ~dream come true~).
  20. Like
    whatdoido reacted to IMislove in Making decisions about specialty..   
    Probably one of the silliest things I’ve heard. Everyone has their story, 50% of those may very well be privileged people (like my class), it’s hilarious how unrelatable most med students are to the common Canadian. You may not agree with off my chest, but I’ll be damned before someone calls someone else out after multiple tries to medicine. Also your point makes 0 sense, they are not at all related. Use actually well formed arguments and not personal attacks thanks. 
  21. Like
    whatdoido reacted to offmychestplease in Making decisions about specialty..   
    -
  22. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from offmychestplease in Is passion necessary to be a doctor?   
    What about family med? Just aim to pass in med school, the residency is much, much less grueling than most other specialties, and you can work part time forever and still make well above the average Canadian income. Is the 6-year training that hard if you're aiming to coast?
  23. Confused
    whatdoido reacted to totesmcgoats in Would you red flag an applicant who has been seen breaking COVID etiquette?   
    Some schools have a red-flag system where faculty, residents, med students - whoever is part of the application process - can add a note to the file of a med school applicant for egregious past behaviour or falsifying information. Of course this should be taken with discretion and is not a perfect system etc.

    Relevant to covid, if you saw evidence (e.g. instagram posts or seeing in person) of an undergrad applying to med school who was less compliant with covid protocol - would you raise a red flag? Where would you draw the line if so? e.g. from hosting a large indoor house party vs. joining a large indoor house party vs. going to a nighclub maskless with 50+ people indoors
  24. Like
    whatdoido got a reaction from ballsortahard in Would you red flag an applicant who has been seen breaking COVID etiquette?   
    yes
    first of all, don't do that and put potentially high-risk patients in danger
    second of all, don't advertise it on instagram if you do.
    common sense.
  25. Like
    whatdoido reacted to offmychestplease in Making decisions about specialty..   
    -
×
×
  • Create New...