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I'm not sure if you are speaking from experience, but it doesnt sound like you are.   I'm not sure if you are suggesting that overhead will be 75K /yr split between 3 docs i.e. $25K/yr overhead per do

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People need to stop bringing up anecdotes of family physicians gross billing 1 million into this discussion. That is so far out of the norm and likely involves questionable practices in order to do so

5 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

what a disgustingly ignorant comment to make..most high school teachers need 2 degrees (one in education and one in the subject matter) which is at least 6 years of education.....a family doctor that went to Mac/UofC for medical school and got in after 3rd year of UG only has 6 years of university as well...and then a resident family doctor makes just under what a starting teacher makes....then 2 years later the family doctor will make 4 or 5 times as much....your blatant ignorance is very disrespectful...especially considering after 6+ years of university education getting a fulltime teaching job is not easy, while matching to family and finding a family doctor job is much easier....watch what you say before people who actually have experience in these other professions put you in your place.

lmao...tf...this isnt ignorant or disrespectful. he hit the nail on the head. opportunity cost is huge. benefits are huge. hours work are yuggggee

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5 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

he forgot the fact that high school teachers have the same education level that family doctors do (6-7+ years of university before getting paid training (2 years of residency)), but get an absolute fraction of the income, prestige, status, job availability and status....I swear for some reason people in medicine think that doctors go to school for decades longer than other professionals... when you take a second to breathe and get off the pedestal you realize the huge privilege that being in medicine is compared to other professional peers.

lmao...this is hiliarous...

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37 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

what's hilarious? don't want to accept the reality that other professionals work just as hard, have similar years in university and get a fraction of the income, prestige, status etc but aren't on internet forums all day crying about their ONLY 250K salary?

LOL ... i cant. 

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Good discussion. Let's keep it respectful...

 

What most people don't realize is that the gap isn't as large. Factor in shorter work hours, benefits, and a pension starting at retirement age much younger than most doctors... and also compare how hard you had to work for that money. It's a rewarding job, but let's not kid ourselves.

In terms of net worth, you aren't retiring as a doctor having "4-5 times as much" and the other professionals aren't retiring with a "fraction" of what you have.

Plenty of jobs can earn $100k/yr, especially if you're comparing similar years in training/ education.

Eg. net $200k/yr doctor vs $100k/yr non-doctor. That's a difference of $100k more (before taxes) working x 20 years, but the other person makes $40k/year (after taxes) x 20 years in pension funds (from age 60 to 80, possibly even longer depending on lifespan). They got that pension basically by receiving a cheque in the mail while you had to work your butt off for 20 years. Hmmm....

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3 hours ago, Wachaa said:

Good discussion. Let's keep it respectful...

 

What most people don't realize is that the gap isn't as large. Factor in shorter work hours, benefits, and a pension starting at retirement age much younger than most doctors... and also compare how hard you had to work for that money. It's a rewarding job, but let's not kid ourselves.

In terms of net worth, you aren't retiring as a doctor having "4-5 times as much" and the other professionals aren't retiring with a "fraction" of what you have.

Plenty of jobs can earn $100k/yr, especially if you're comparing similar years in training/ education.

Eg. net $200k/yr doctor vs $100k/yr non-doctor. That's a difference of $100k more (before taxes) working x 20 years, but the other person makes $40k/year (after taxes) x 20 years in pension funds (from age 60 to 80, possibly even longer depending on lifespan). They got that pension basically by receiving a cheque in the mail while you had to work your butt off for 20 years. Hmmm....

Yes but most doctors make more than 200k a year. Some family doctors I know make 500k take home while working a 35 hour work week in a FHO, i'm sure they are exceptions, but not out of this world ones. 

Also, you have to factor in the instability of that 100k a year job. If a recession hits, if your company doesn't do well or you get a new boss who does not get along, you could lose your job at any time. Also, that pension doesn't kick in until you are 60-80 versus the doctor who is making that income while they are still an adult. That makes a huge difference in what you could do in your life. 

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2 hours ago, Edict said:

Yes but most doctors make more than 200k a year. Some family doctors I know make 500k take home while working a 35 hour work week in a FHO, i'm sure they are exceptions, but not out of this world ones. 

Also, you have to factor in the instability of that 100k a year job. If a recession hits, if your company doesn't do well or you get a new boss who does not get along, you could lose your job at any time. Also, that pension doesn't kick in until you are 60-80 versus the doctor who is making that income while they are still an adult. That makes a huge difference in what you could do in your life. 

True but I think 500k is much more exceptional than you think, because the stats on thousands of family docs in Ontario demonstrates a much lower mean/median, and even the "hourly wage" analysis which factors in for hours worked lines up with that much lower norm.

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8 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

what a disgustingly ignorant comment to make..most high school teachers need 2 degrees (one in education and one in the subject matter) which is at least 6 years of education (it is also not uncommon at all for teachers to have masters degrees as well).....a family doctor that went to Mac/UofC for medical school and got in after 3rd year of UG only has 6 years of university as well...and then a resident family doctor makes just under what a starting teacher makes....then 2 years later the family doctor will make 4 or 5 times as much....your blatant ignorance is very disrespectful...especially considering after 6+ years of university education getting a fulltime teaching job is not easy, while matching to family and finding a family doctor job is much easier....watch what you say before people who actually have experience in these other professions put you in your place.

True but you must realize that degree inflation has hit medicine as hard as other sectors. I was surprised to find out recently just how many of my colleagues had graduate degrees or completely different careers before being able to get into medicine. And of course I'm the exception and not the rule, but I will have had 18-20 years of training (depending on fellowship), ALL of it more or less in my field (neuroscience, neuroplasticity, neurology) before I get to practice...and when I do, my net take home will likely also be 200k (per online stats and conversations with practicing neurologist friends), without much room for growth (as one can't really accelerate the rate of managing neuro patients beyond a certain point, without being unsafe).

So yes, there's always that one FP who finds the perfect setup, or the girl who does 3 years UG + 3 years MD + 3 years IM + 3 years cardio, and is taking home 500-800k/year, but most of us aren't so lucky. If we keep using that minority to say that docs are over paid...the rest of us (the majority), with much less favorable maths, will suffer.

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14 hours ago, GrouchoMarx said:

so what? compare to people in your standing, not everyone.

based on hours/work/training years i think family docs are underpaid. teachers make as much. some nurses make more. cops make as much. specialists with 3 more years of residency make far more. its not justified.

If you bill properly, take advantage of tricks/loopholes, use corp tax advantages and other tax advantages - you can take home 250+. Highest paid cops are grossing 200 and taking home like 140. 

BTW, highest paid family docs make well over 1 million per year...

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I agree that when looking at physician remuneration that we need to focus on the mean and median. I understand there is self-reporting bias in those reports, but at least they usually remove the people billing <100k which helps adjust the skew a little bit. It's easy to think you can be in the top 5% of billers but that really comes down to
1) How safe you want to practice
2) How hard you want to work
3) Location
4) Luck

I agree with elements of both sides of the overpaid/underpaid argument. I think that physicians are well compensated relative to the general population and we have the luxury of consistent income, self-employment, and linear career path. I find my physician friends who have not worked as other professional don't understand how good it is to have a reliable payer (the government) and to not have to worry about business development or client acquisition.

On the other side, I do think that if we want to compare ourselves to other high performing professionals the picture is not as rosy. While not all doctors are going to be capable in other "prestige" fields, many would be capable of being successful. My friends who worked as hard as me and dedicated themselves to their profession do just as well as I do and many do better. The opportunity cost of our training and tuition does have a significant impact when we are comparing outcomes. That being said, not every doctor would have fun trying to sell work or get clients. Many of my friends just want to practice medicine and hate the "running the business" part of their clinic.

I think we should be thankful for the position we have in society as physicians because even though we are undervalued in many ways there is still a lot to be thankful for as a physician. I would never recommend this career to someone who just wants to get "rich" because there are better ways to do that. Rather this a great career for people who are passionate about healthcare, helping patients, while also earning a comfortable living. If you just focus on money in medicine I think that's a shortcut to bitterness and burnout.

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3 hours ago, PhD2MD said:

True but I think 500k is much more exceptional than you think, because the stats on thousands of family docs in Ontario demonstrates a much lower mean/median, and even the "hourly wage" analysis which factors in for hours worked lines up with that much lower norm.

Almost all doctors are also veryyy inefficient. It's not hard to be at the top if you're reasonably fast. 

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4 minutes ago, medigeek said:

Almost all doctors are also veryyy inefficient. It's not hard to be at the top if you're reasonably fast. 

I'm sure many are, though I haven't met many that are very inefficient. Even so, if that's the pace/style they operate at to stay safe and not burnout, I wouldn't want to raise the expectation so high that mistakes become more common and/or people burn out and drop out sooner.

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8 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

I'm sure many are, though I haven't met many that are very inefficient. Even so, if that's the pace/style they operate at to stay safe and not burnout, I wouldn't want to raise the expectation so high that mistakes become more common and/or people burn out and drop out sooner.

You don't need to rush the clinical encounter. You can be very fast at literally everything else and not do small talk, some of just enjoy the speed too ;) 

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6 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

Those in medicine who did not have a career in another field before entering medicine (and/or got in on their first or second try straight from UG) are the most ignorant and aren't grateful for their position. That is all I will say. The responses in this thread truly show this and it is quite disheartening. Luckily, there have been comments by others who understand their enormous privilege being in medicine compared to virtually every other career in Canada.  

I agree with you to an extent.. A doc who has take home of 200K is quite a lot , the avg. mean family income is 100K ( with 2 full time working individuals).

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8 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

why are you comparing the average doctor salary to the average salary of 2 people? lol compare 200K to 50K....that is 4 times as much....but as others have stated family doctors can easily make 250+K and up to the million in some cases....in AB the average family doctor makes 300+K take home...

that's what I meant saying. One of the posters was saying that they will only have 200K take home income,  and in the future, if you decide to have family, and also take into account their SO earnings, you will end up with at least 300-400K take home earnings.. that's well above the avg Canadian family income.(only 100K)

It's very sad when people complain that they are only taking home 200K

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People need to stop bringing up anecdotes of family physicians gross billing 1 million into this discussion. That is so far out of the norm and likely involves questionable practices in order to do so. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of hours/effort that would have to go into doing so.

Also if people are going to bring up numbers, you should cite some data. There is a lot of misinformation mixed into the numbers being thrown out here, with some being more accurate.

Lastly, for people who talk about running high volume clinics in order to make $$ in family medicine, that is beyond unpalatable if you have ever actually worked in primary care for an extended period of time. The monotony of family medicine is unreal.

If you're a premed in this thread and mouthing off on people expressing discontent with their anticipated or actual remuneration, you'll be surprised at how you change your tune once you've gone through clerkship and you begin to appreciate what medicine is really like.

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On 3/31/2019 at 11:02 AM, lasko.heater said:

that's what I meant saying. One of the posters was saying that they will only have 200K take home income,  and in the future, if you decide to have family, and also take into account their SO earnings, you will end up with 300-400K take home earnings.. that's well above the avg Canadian family income :(

It's very sad when people complain that they are only taking home 200K

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On 3/31/2019 at 11:07 AM, freewheeler said:

People need to stop bringing up anecdotes of family physicians gross billing 1 million into this discussion. That is so far out of the norm and likely involves questionable practices in order to do so. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of hours/effort that would have to go into doing so.

Also if people are going to bring up numbers, you should cite some data. There is a lot of misinformation mixed into the numbers being thrown out here, with some being more accurate.

Lastly, for people who talk about running high volume clinics in order to make $$ in family medicine, that is beyond unpalatable if you have ever actually worked in primary care for an extended period of time. The monotony of family medicine is unreal.

If you're a premed in this thread and mouthing off on people expressing discontent with their anticipated or actual remuneration, you'll be surprised at how you change your tune once you've gone through clerkship and you begin to appreciate what medicine is really like.

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The million dollar family doctor is really ridiculous........the education thing is kind of ridiculous though.  Teachers require a bachelors degree, and even if they have 2 of them, the level of difficulty in teaching vs medicine is not comparable, not to mention residency training and loans,  so please don’t compare education levels as being ‘comparable’ in a non medical field to a doctor.  

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On 3/31/2019 at 11:19 AM, windsormd1 said:

The million dollar family doctor is really ridiculous........the education thing is kind of ridiculous though.  Teachers require a bachelors degree, and even if they have 2 of them, the level of difficulty in teaching vs medicine is not comparable, not to mention residency training and loans,  so please don’t compare education levels as being ‘comparable’ in a non medical field to a doctor.  

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