The slow decay of dentistry

[Everclear]

22 hours ago, Lvl3sonly said:

Agree with almost everything you said. Although I've actually noticed more FTDs moving out to rural areas nowadays.

I've seen the work FTDs do and generally they are extremely lacking compared to domsetic or even US/Australia grads. I worked with a guy who didn't even know basic endodontic pulpal/apical diagnosis. The standards of training in dental schools in certain parts of the world are frankly garbage. 

You're not gonna say it so I will. I've seen tons of bad work from ITDs. Not just technical skills, but in diagnosis as well, both misdiagnosis and overdiagnosis. I would never recommend my friends go to a ftd. There are of course exceptions to the rule. I've seen dentists from 1st world european countries and they are excellent. 

Even though it may be technically fraudulent tons of offices are asking for the copay. Very common in BC for that to happen.

US and Australian grads have on average much better clinical education upon graduation than Canadian grads. 

It’s not so much the clinical experience which I feel is an issue for dental schools in the third world, some have an insanely intensive clinical work load. The issue is the standard of work at which majority of dentists in these countries consider “Clinically acceptable”. This term shouldn’t be subjective but it is. I have no doubt that the quality of dental work in third world countries is lower because their dental cultural threshold of what they deem “Clinically acceptable” is lower. I think US, Australia, Korea, Germany and most first world countries have a similar standard to us. This is likely a result of the fact that dentistry in these countries are HIGHLY regulated so practicing dentists are held to a very very high standard clinically. Veering off course from this high standard will lead to lawsuits from patients and/or displince from regulating bodies.

Now the question is if dental schools in developing nations also have a lower threshold of what they teach as “Clinically acceptable”? The students in these schools are taught by the very dentists that work in the country who are involved in the lower threshold of “Clinically acceptable” in private practice. But there no way to know without proper accreditation. And that’s the real issue, there’s no way to know.

 

[McMarauder]

In my own experience I have come across terrible dentists trained in Canada, Australia, India, South Africa, and the UK.  I have also come across excellent dentists trained in Canada, Auustralia, India, South Africa and the UK.  Having been exposed to so many different dentists from across the world and different institutions, I'm starting use origin of training less and less as an indication of competency.

[Sadaf]

2 hours ago, McMarauder said:

In my own experience I have come across terrible dentists trained in Canada, Australia, India, South Africa, and the UK.  I have also come across excellent dentists trained in Canada, Auustralia, India, South Africa and the UK.  Having been exposed to so many different dentists from across the world and different institutions, I'm starting use origin of training less and less as an indication of competency.

I totally agree.

[Lvl3sonly]

21 hours ago, Sadaf said:

I once took my grandfather to your so called “brilliant canadian dentist” and he he happened to extract the wrong tooth which was going to serve as an abutment tooth for his prosthesis. 

It’s honestly people’s mindset that dentists  who are trained in the first world countries are amazing at work whereas ITDs from third world countries are garbage. I don’t know understand why people generalize. Given the above example, I could easily say that canadian dentists are garbage too but, I won’t. Because humans are meant to make mistakes. 

The stereotype has got to end someday.

Terrible dentists exist no matter where you were educated. There just happens to be more terrible dentists who are ITDs. And this isn't a sample size of 1. There is a reason why you see job postings asking for canadian grads. The stereotype will never end as long as canada keeps accepting dentists from 3rd world shitholes.

[takasugi]

How would a normal person know if their dentist is good or bad?

[Everclear]

7 minutes ago, Lvl3sonly said:

Terrible dentists exist no matter where you were educated. There just happens to be more terrible dentists who are ITDs. And this isn't a sample size of 1. There is a reason why you see job postings asking for canadian grads. The stereotype will never end as long as canada keeps accepting dentists from 3rd world shitholes.

Wow. Watch your language.

[Sadaf]

51 minutes ago, Lvl3sonly said:

Terrible dentists exist no matter where you were educated. There just happens to be more terrible dentists who are ITDs. And this isn't a sample size of 1. There is a reason why you see job postings asking for canadian grads. The stereotype will never end as long as canada keeps accepting dentists from 3rd world shitholes.

Looks like they taught you to be a good dentist but forgot to teach you ethics. How ironical! 

[#YOLO]

lmao someones salttttty

[cleanup]

5 hours ago, Lvl3sonly said:

Terrible dentists exist no matter where you were educated. There just happens to be more terrible dentists who are ITDs. And this isn't a sample size of 1. There is a reason why you see job postings asking for canadian grads. The stereotype will never end as long as canada keeps accepting dentists from 3rd world shitholes.

Remain civil or I won't be. You've been warned. Next time it's a ban.

[McMarauder]

21 hours ago, takasugi said:

How would a normal person know if their dentist is good or bad?

Most people don't really know.  the thing with dental treatment is that a lot of it can be less than ideal, but it'll still "work" for a period of time.

 

 

22 hours ago, Lvl3sonly said:

Terrible dentists exist no matter where you were educated. There just happens to be more terrible dentists who are ITDs. And this isn't a sample size of 1. There is a reason why you see job postings asking for canadian grads. The stereotype will never end as long as canada keeps accepting dentists from 3rd world shitholes.

There's more than one reason for those job postings.  While an ITD may be an excellent dentist clinically, the practice owner needs to select a dentist that is a good fit for the practice and the patient base.  There is probably some racial bias behind these job postings as well.  Many people assume that ITD's won't be able to speak English in a way that is understandable, or that they won't fit in with "Canadian culture", and will have trouble building rapport with patients and the dental team.   I worked in a practice 1.5 hours away from Toronto, with a mainly Caucasian patient base (apparently the population in this area was held strong white nationalist views).  Many patients openly asked for a "Canadian Dentist", which usually meant that they wanted someone who was white.  On numerous occasions, I could hear my receptionist explain to new patients that despite having an Asian last name that I was born and raised in Toronto, spoke perfect English and was very "Canadian".  I also had MANY patients complain to me about my Indian colleague's accent or the fact that she spoke too softly under her mask (at least that's what they would say if they did not want to comment on her accent), despite the fact that she was a good dentist.

[Ostracized]

From an ODA memorandum, pertaining to Ontario:

Quote

 The 2019 Annual Economic Survey (data as of 2018) results showed that the annual gross revenues for
 the total profession in 2018 grew approximately 2.6 per cent and expenses increased by 6.8 per cent. 
 
 The “average dentist” saw a decline in their gross revenues of 1.0 per cent in 2018, expenses increasing
 by 3.2 per cent and a decrease in net income of 5.7 per cent. 
 
 The most important fact that comes out of the survey is that the profession is still struggling to absorb the
 increase in the number of dentists, which continues to grow faster than the population and the demand for
 dental care. This means that the average practice faces a shrinking patient pool, and, in turn, a downward
 pressure on gross revenues and net incomes. 

 

[Everclear]

14 hours ago, Ostracized said:

From an ODA memorandum, pertaining to Ontario:

 

 End game has begun

[Compton]

15 hours ago, Ostracized said:

From an ODA memorandum, pertaining to Ontario:

 

Shouldn't be too surprised....but then again no one really sympathizes with dentists so I'd love to see the figure from this year to see the year-over-year effect

[Stethescope]

It confuses me to no end that there is bashing of ITDs and students that want to return to Canada after attending US/Australia/Irish/etc schools.

If I wanted to become a dentist in Canada but couldn't get into a Canadian school, I would find other ways of achieving it (e.g. coming back after completing a dental degree elsewhere).

If I were a dentist from a third world country and learned that one can earn a respectable income in the same profession, I would try to come to this country to benefit myself and my family.

Don't hate the players, hate the game. 

Our enemy isn't those that become licensed in Canada to practice dentistry. Our enemy is the legislations that have allowed the saturation to occur in the first place. 

It would be in the best interest of everyone to find ways to minimize how many dentists get certified in Canada (https://ndeb-bned.ca/en/dental-programs/historical-pass-rates)

It would be nice if they didn't accept dentists from other countries the country does not need any more than how many it produces internally. Unfortunately, immigration plays a major role in Canada's growth hence it is not necessarily a viable option. 

[McMarauder]

10 hours ago, Stethescope said:

It confuses me to no end that there is bashing of ITDs and students that want to return to Canada after attending US/Australia/Irish/etc schools.

If I wanted to become a dentist in Canada but couldn't get into a Canadian school, I would find other ways of achieving it (e.g. coming back after completing a dental degree elsewhere).

If I were a dentist from a third world country and learned that one can earn a respectable income in the same profession, I would try to come to this country to benefit myself and my family.

Don't hate the players, hate the game. 

Our enemy isn't those that become licensed in Canada to practice dentistry. Our enemy is the legislations that have allowed the saturation to occur in the first place. 

It would be in the best interest of everyone to find ways to minimize how many dentists get certified in Canada (https://ndeb-bned.ca/en/dental-programs/historical-pass-rates)

It would be nice if they didn't accept dentists from other countries the country does not need any more than how many it produces internally. Unfortunately, immigration plays a major role in Canada's growth hence it is not necessarily a viable option. 

It's interesting that a significant portion of the bashing comes from people who haven't even made it into dental school yet.  There was someone in this exact thread a few years ago who was totally against the reciprocal agreement with Australia.  I guess they must have been very confident with their chances of getting into a Canadian dental school.  Ironically, they ended up going to the University of Sydney for dental school. 

[McMarauder]

going back to what I was saying about corporates... looks like they're starting to target dental schools directly.

https://paherald.sk.ca/2019/09/12/u-of-s-receives-over-1m-from-dentalcorp-for-prince-albert-campus-clinic/

[toothurty]

20 hours ago, McMarauder said:

going back to what I was saying about corporates... looks like they're starting to target dental schools directly.

https://paherald.sk.ca/2019/09/12/u-of-s-receives-over-1m-from-dentalcorp-for-prince-albert-campus-clinic/

Looks familiar ...

https://mediarelations.uwo.ca/2019/09/26/1-million-gift-helps-western-advance-the-future-of-dentistry/

[McMarauder]

9 minutes ago, toothurty said:

Looks familiar ...

https://mediarelations.uwo.ca/2019/09/26/1-million-gift-helps-western-advance-the-future-of-dentistry/

and there you have it folks... let the grooming of future dental corp dentists begin.

[xylem29]

TBH dental corp throws some pretty good parties during ASM each year

[patrickstar]

On 11/13/2019 at 9:14 PM, McMarauder said:

and there you have it folks... let the grooming of future dental corp dentists begin.

Why doesn't dentalcorp spend the money on future dentists to help with their student loans and not on the darn school lmao 

[Confusedprehealth]

On 11/26/2018 at 11:51 AM, cleanup said:

process

My friend graduated as a RN in Canada... She now works in California making 120k USD a year which is 160k CAD... In conclusion, California nurses make more than Canadian dentist... there are 2 main reason why dentistry i saturated in Canada and not saturated in the US... but seriously Canadian trained dentist should consider immigrating to the US... if not also consider becoming a nurse and moving to California, you will make more than a Canadian dentist with less years of schoolimg and less student loans

1. Canada recognizes education from US/NZ/AUS/Ireland/UK. The US only recognizes education from Canada.

2. There are ways for foreigned trained dentist to get accreddited in Canada just by taking an exam... In the US if you dont graduate from either a US or Canadian school, you have to go through schoolimg again for another 2/3 years...

[molarmania]

I literally cannot understand why the CDA thought it would be a good idea to let graduates from all those countries gain equivalency. All it creates is greater inequality. Like, students from affluent families could just go study in Australia if they get rejected from a Canadian school. Given that the tuition is considerably higher, less privileged students would just be shunned from the dental profession entirely. 

[McMarauder]

On 1/30/2020 at 10:50 PM, molarmania said:

I literally cannot understand why the CDA thought it would be a good idea to let graduates from all those countries gain equivalency. All it creates is greater inequality. Like, students from affluent families could just go study in Australia if they get rejected from a Canadian school. Given that the tuition is considerably higher, less privileged students would just be shunned from the dental profession entirely. 

Essentially, the CDAC (commission on Dental accreditation of Canada), along with other Canadian Dental governing bodies and dental schools themselves are influenced by big dental corporations (i.e. corporations are paying them).  All the corporations care about is making money.  One way of ensuring that dental corporations always have dentists to help generate revenue is to have a large supply of dentists who owe a lot of money and are willing to take any job.  Why would the governing bodies want to do anything about the oversupply when they're making money from it?

Professional programs in Canada are also prone to the same sort of inequality.  Students from wealthier families have access to better resources to increase the chances of getting into these programs.  For example, being able to pay for private schooling so that they can get into undergraduate programs that inflate grades, private tutors and exam prep courses.  Furthermore, students from wealthy families have no need to work part time or over the summer, allowing them to pursue activities that make them more competitive applicants.  Finally, if someone has parents or family members who are professionals,  their chances of becoming a professional is higher as they will receive the proper guidance (yes, ultimately it's up to them to get in, but a little guidance goes a long way). Having gone through the process myself, I have plenty of advice to pass onto to my kids that I did not receive as a first generation university attender.

There are multiple ways of becoming a licensed dentist in Canada, and each method is inherently unfair to different groups of people.  Eg. Canadian dental schools do not factor in the rigor of your university/program/course selection (I've studied at 3 Ontario universities, and there's definitely differences between universities and programs).  American and Aus schools will attract those with lower stats and can pay for it - whether it be because applicants come from affluent families or if their families were able to remortgage their homes.  Finally, one can take advantage of the equivalency process by attending non-accredited dental schools and challenge exams afterwards. All of that would be significantly cheaper than attending an accredited dental school, but you run you gotta jump through more hurdles to get licensed.  This is not a common route for Canadian Citizens, but I have met 3 Canadians who did this.  1 studied in Hungary, 1 studied in Egypt and another studied in India.

Instead of complaining about the over-saturation, I decided to move somewhere that actually needed dentists.  Best decision I made.

[McMarauder]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:18 PM, patrickstar said:

Why doesn't dentalcorp spend the money on future dentists to help with their student loans and not on the darn school lmao 

I follow a couple of american dental facebook groups, and some people have posted some of the perks of working for a corporate - one of them was aid with debt repayment...  it could become a thing in Canada.

[Confusedprehealth]

Previously when Canada only recognized education from the US everything was fine and dandy... US schools are still a lot harder to get into compared to Aus/NZ/Irish schools albeit easier than Canadian schools... The saturation started to hit hard when Canada started opening the floodgates to Aus/NZ/Irish graduates, a lot of these schools will take anyone with a pulse... the good news is that Canadians who got their DDS from the US or Canada can always run to the US for a better job market and to make more money, while those that got their B dent from AUS/NZ/Ireland/UK are essentially stuck in Canada...