Western Now Looking at ECs

[T-cell]

My 2 cents is that the hard cut-offs for gpa and mcat scores will still apply for getting an interview. This may be a thing to verify what ppl discuss in the interview as actually being true. 

Also, just throwing out an idea, but has anyone noticed on the OMSAS website under Schulich it says that Shulich is adopting the CBE curriculum and the first cohort to go through the program will be meds 2023, so this years applicants. Does anybody think that this new sketch thing has something to do with adopting this new holistic style of CBE curriculum? 

Does anybody else see this connection? 

[HeroX37]

3 hours ago, T-cell said:

My 2 cents is that the hard cut-offs for gpa and mcat scores will still apply for getting an interview. This may be a thing to verify what ppl discuss in the interview as actually being true. 

Also, just throwing out an idea, but has anyone noticed on the OMSAS website under Schulich it says that Shulich is adopting the CBE curriculum and the first cohort to go through the program will be meds 2023, so this years applicants. Does anybody think that this new sketch thing has something to do with adopting this new holistic style of CBE curriculum? 

Does anybody else see this connection? 

No, CBME (Competency based medical education) is being implemented everywhere in the US & Canada - it's the new system that's "in" right now. The holistic approach to applicants to medical school is new and we'll see how it goes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[rmorelan]

3 hours ago, HeroX37 said:

No, CBME (Competency based medical education) is being implemented everywhere in the US & Canada - it's the new system that's "in" right now. The holistic approach to applicants to medical school is new and we'll see how it goes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

true - might have been the excuse though to reexamine things. That is often the case in medical education, some forced change comes down and gives people the opportunity to alter something that has bugged them for awhile but there was too much inertia to change  

[Apex]

From contacting the admissions office, it seems that the aABS is more of an additional item on the list.  However I was told that it will not affect the cutoffs.  Perhaps it is strictly a post interview consideration?  Or for this year it is a test run.

[rmorelan]

18 minutes ago, Apex said:

From contacting the admissions office, it seems that the aABS is more of an additional item on the list.  However I was told that it will not affect the cutoffs.  Perhaps it is strictly a post interview consideration?  Or for this year it is a test run.

both are possible in that case - they wouldn't be reviewing 4000 of them as well which would be a big time saver. I wonder if the interviewers would have access to them. 

[tavenan]

21 minutes ago, Apex said:

From contacting the admissions office, it seems that the aABS is more of an additional item on the list.  However I was told that it will not affect the cutoffs.  Perhaps it is strictly a post interview consideration?  Or for this year it is a test run.

There we go I'm surprised they made this information public, assuming that it's true of course. 

 

So it's almost certainly either a post-interview formula, or a test year. We'll have to see.

[nice]

.

[rmorelan]

Just now, KingKunta_chickenwings said:

This is from their admission site:

"we will be requiring applicants to complete an Abbreviated Autobiographical Sketch to help us determine who should be selected for interviews" 

yeah that is all very contradictory ha. 

I mean you cannot use it before and have it have no impact. Cut offs give exactly the right number of people to interview as it is. That is how they have traditionally been used - almost their entire point actually. Add something else then you would think the cut offs would have to change. 

All just speculation of course In the end it is like any other part of the application - you have to do it as well as you can and let things end up where they end up.

[Apex]

To clarify, the part where I think it'll be a post interview thing is purely my speculation.  The information I was given was that there is not much information to be given, the process will be confidential and similar to the ABS for dentistry, and that it will not impact cutoffs.  Hope this helps to those who were wondering as I certainly was unsure what to make of the new aABS.

[PreMed95]

What do you mean by confidential? The interviewers don't have access to them, this is given on their website as the interview is closed book. Also it would 100% have to affect the cutoffs even if these are scored as a Pass/Fail or else they would not be able to interview ~440 applicants that they have been doing every year, since ever. I think they will drop, but not drop too much (there will be much more than the usual 2700 applicants this year). 

With regards to the SWOMEN status, @rmorelan is there any reason you strongly believe Western will still make a SWOMEN advantage? It has been going on for a long time now, I would've taught they have satisfied there objective quota by now. 

[rmorelan]

3 hours ago, PreMed95 said:

What do you mean by confidential? The interviewers don't have access to them, this is given on their website as the interview is closed book. Also it would 100% have to affect the cutoffs even if these are scored as a Pass/Fail or else they would not be able to interview ~440 applicants that they have been doing every year, since ever. I think they will drop, but not drop too much (there will be much more than the usual 2700 applicants this year). 

With regards to the SWOMEN status, @rmorelan is there any reason you strongly believe Western will still make a SWOMEN advantage? It has been going on for a long time now, I would've taught they have satisfied there objective quota by now. 

a whole bunch of reasons

It is embedded into to everything, and people's entire careers are based on it - in fact they just announced the 20th anniversary of it.  No one has announced any changes to it at all - anywhere. There are still relative shortages there. Even if they fill whatever need there is that just proves the program is working so people will argue not to stop. There is no real disadvantage to them to continuing it. The OMSAS app still is collecting the data they need for SWOMEN calculation.....

[Apex]

19 hours ago, PreMed95 said:

What do you mean by confidential? The interviewers don't have access to them, this is given on their website as the interview is closed book. Also it would 100% have to affect the cutoffs even if these are scored as a Pass/Fail or else they would not be able to interview ~440 applicants that they have been doing every year, since ever. I think they will drop, but not drop too much (there will be much more than the usual 2700 applicants this year). 

With regards to the SWOMEN status, @rmorelan is there any reason you strongly believe Western will still make a SWOMEN advantage? It has been going on for a long time now, I would've taught they have satisfied there objective quota by now. 

Confidential was used in a context mentioning that how they will use these aABS will not be disclosed, versus say the GPA/MCAT cutoffs which are published yearly.  As for the cutoffs, I am simply relaying what I've been told.  However for you to say they will "100%" affect the cutoffs seems like an absolute statement which you cannot know for certain unless you are part of the admissions office yourself.  I understand the seemingly contradictory information being given but there are several possible explanations listed above speculated by other members.  

As for the cutoffs dropping, why would you assume they will drop if you think there are going to be more applicants, hence more potential competitive applicants this year?  Furthermore, why are you certain there will be more than the usual amount of applicants this year?  

[infinity101]

is it possible that this (ECs consideration) in any way will impact conditional acceptances?

[PreMed95]

@Apex, If they do not drop the cutoffs then the aABS would be useless for interview screening, as the cutoffs themselves will filter out the desired number of interview spots without considering anything else in your application. I realize now, "there will be more applicants this cycle" is a pretty strong assumption. It's just that I had assumed a lot of people choose not to apply if they are below the published cutoffs from the previous year (Of course this isn't entirely true, but it is reasonable to assume a decent amount do so) . Now that applicants see the aABS is required, they are more likely to apply despite not making the cutoffs because there is now a new level of filtration involved, instead of just GPA/MCAT. 

 

[Apex]

On 8/4/2018 at 4:32 PM, PreMed95 said:

@Apex, If they do not drop the cutoffs then the aABS would be useless for interview screening, as the cutoffs themselves will filter out the desired number of interview spots without considering anything else in your application. I realize now, "there will be more applicants this cycle" is a pretty strong assumption. It's just that I had assumed a lot of people choose not to apply if they are below the published cutoffs from the previous year (Of course this isn't entirely true, but it is reasonable to assume a decent amount do so) . Now that applicants see the aABS is required, they are more likely to apply despite not making the cutoffs because there is now a new level of filtration involved, instead of just GPA/MCAT. 

 

I definitely don't disagree with your logic, but I simply wanted to share what I was told specifically by the the admissions office.  The lady whom I had a chat with was unable to divulge a ton of information about the aABS but she seemed adamant on the fact that it will not impact cutoffs.  How is this going to work?  I don't know.  There is no flaw in your logic with regards to the impact of the aABS should have on the cutoff if it is going to affect the pre-interview selection process.  However since I've been given information that it will not impact the cutoff directly from the admissions office, I can't really agree with you.  There are theories such as it being a trial year, or that it's going to be used more as a reference or maybe strictly a "red-flag" tool to remove applicants with stellar academic stats, but lackluster life experience.  Again, I'm in the same boat as you so I thought I'd share any information that may be of use.

To your second point, ah okay.  That makes sense and is a logical assumption that more students would apply.  

[hopefullyafuturedoc]

Does anyone know when they release the cut off scores?

 

[IMislove]

8 minutes ago, hopefullyafuturedoc said:

Does anyone know when they release the cut off scores?

 

After interviews are sent, never before the application is due. You can use this past application cycles cut-offs as a guideline.

[rmorelan]

1 hour ago, hopefullyafuturedoc said:

Does anyone know when they release the cut off scores?

 

IMislove is correct - the use the cut offs to reduce the pool down to size. It is kind of a reverse situation than other schools - most of the time you are working to hit a level that gets you an interview. Here the school is working to create a cut off to only interview roughly the same number of people. Ha, If only 450 applied to Western for some strange reason then in theory they all would get an interview. 

[Gironomo]

The form itself says it is being scored and the website says the form is being used to determine who receives interview invites.

How can that be interpreted as being anything but them decreasing the cutoffs? 

They always say that cutoffs are subject to change and are determined by the applicant pool, so I'm not sure what the person meant when she told the guy above that they wouldn't have an impact on cutoffs, since they wouldn't know what they are. 

My prediction: 128 CARS, about the same B/B and C/P. Probably adding P/S.

[Pakoon]

4 hours ago, Gironomo said:

The form itself says it is being scored and the website says the form is being used to determine who receives interview invites.

How can that be interpreted as being anything but them decreasing the cutoffs? 

They always say that cutoffs are subject to change and are determined by the applicant pool, so I'm not sure what the person meant when she told the guy above that they wouldn't have an impact on cutoffs, since they wouldn't know what they are. 

My prediction: 128 CARS, about the same B/B and C/P. Probably adding P/S.

We can only hope, but that Cars score really serves as the control to keep the numbers close to 450, I really don't think they would decrease that . If anything they may knock a point of bio and add psych, also I feel like this is an experimental year for the ABS, but that's all speculation at this point

[Gironomo]

18 hours ago, Abramula said:

We can only hope, but that Cars score really serves as the control to keep the numbers close to 450, I really don't think they would decrease that . If anything they may knock a point of bio and add psych, also I feel like this is an experimental year for the ABS, but that's all speculation at this point

Alternatively, they get the CARS score to narrow it down to some number higher than 450, but less than total # of applicants (obviously closer to 450, so like 128 CARS), and the rest is determined by the ABS. 

Based on the wording, I just feel like they're applying the ABS:

"Effective July 2018, we will be incorporating a more holistic approach towards applicants to Schulich Medicine.  Emphasis will be not only on academics but also on non-academic traits and life experiences, ensuring our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion."

But like you said, it's all speculation and Western is a crapshoot for predicting this sort of stuff :-) 

[Apex]

1 hour ago, Gironomo said:

Alternatively, they get the CARS score to narrow it down to some number higher than 450, but less than total # of applicants (obviously closer to 450, so like 128 CARS), and the rest is determined by the ABS. 

Based on the wording, I just feel like they're applying the ABS:

"Effective July 2018, we will be incorporating a more holistic approach towards applicants to Schulich Medicine.  Emphasis will be not only on academics but also on non-academic traits and life experiences, ensuring our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion."

But like you said, it's all speculation and Western is a crapshoot for predicting this sort of stuff :-) 

I feel like if it does have an impact on cutoffs, it won't necessarily be a hard cutoff for CARS.  I say this because 128 vs 129 is 89 and 95 percentile respectively.  Dropping CARS to 128 essentially doubles the applicant pool assuming the percentile ranks is reflective of the Canadian Pre-med population.  This would net you a lot more than closer to 1000 students by reducing just 1 category of the MCAT.  

My most suspected mechanism for the aABS this year is still that it'll be used as a red flag criteria like the reference letters, or that this is a test year.  However, another case that they may work is perhaps taking a broader look at students who are very close to the cutoffs.  Take for the example the 129-128 CARS "cutoff".  I put cutoffs in quotations because that is the keyword here.  The cutoff will still be 129 CARS assuming status quo, BUT for students who do have 128 CARS and showing extenuating circumstances or distinguishing features in their aABS, they'll be offered an interview based on a case-to-case basis.  The official cutoffs are still 129 for CARS in this example, but a distinguishing few may be granted an interview.  Now apply this to the other academic aspects such as CP/BB/PS MCAT scores or GPA, and I can totally see a role of of the aABS fitting in here.  This wouldn't impact the interview pool number drastically as maybe they'll offer something like 50 additional "hollistic" interviews in addition to the regular 450, making for an even 500 interviewee.  This way they can satisfy their objective of being more hollistic, not upset their nominal applicant pool and minimize any additional pre-interview selection workload.  

[Pakoon]

4 hours ago, Apex said:

I feel like if it does have an impact on cutoffs, it won't necessarily be a hard cutoff for CARS.  I say this because 128 vs 129 is 89 and 95 percentile respectively.  Dropping CARS to 128 essentially doubles the applicant pool assuming the percentile ranks is reflective of the Canadian Pre-med population.  This would net you a lot more than closer to 1000 students by reducing just 1 category of the MCAT.  

My most suspected mechanism for the aABS this year is still that it'll be used as a red flag criteria like the reference letters, or that this is a test year.  However, another case that they may work is perhaps taking a broader look at students who are very close to the cutoffs.  Take for the example the 129-128 CARS "cutoff".  I put cutoffs in quotations because that is the keyword here.  The cutoff will still be 129 CARS assuming status quo, BUT for students who do have 128 CARS and showing extenuating circumstances or distinguishing features in their aABS, they'll be offered an interview based on a case-to-case basis.  The official cutoffs are still 129 for CARS in this example, but a distinguishing few may be granted an interview.  Now apply this to the other academic aspects such as CP/BB/PS MCAT scores or GPA, and I can totally see a role of of the aABS fitting in here.  This wouldn't impact the interview pool number drastically as maybe they'll offer something like 50 additional "hollistic" interviews in addition to the regular 450, making for an even 500 interviewee.  This way they can satisfy their objective of being more hollistic, not upset their nominal applicant pool and minimize any additional pre-interview selection workload. 

Well said, but I don't think they'll consider anyone under the cut-offs, or else they wouldn't be cut-offs, but that's an interesting thought, it would add another layer of screening and would really push the holistic approach they're trying to take.

[infinity101]

on a side note, do you all think this will have an impact on conditional acceptance? 

Or will conditional be left as it is? 

[rmorelan]

2 minutes ago, infinity101 said:

on a side note, do you all think this will have an impact on conditional acceptance? 

Or will conditional be left as it is? 

like any new change with no information yet people are going to speculate all over the place - makes sense really considering how rule obsessed the system makes you, and then ha in cases like there gaps which people would love to fill somehow. I beat this point no one, not even the school, fully knows how this will play out. They usually go over cut offs so late in the game that they don't have to bother being exact for some time. 

That being said there are things we do know - for this year at least nothing will change, and with an of the other big changes in the past they have also left it alone.