quebec and carms

[#YOLO]

lets have a discussion. imo quebec med schools (which are super easy to get into, and way over populated) should be banned from entering carms outside of their province. This is one of the main reasons for the massive bottleneck, high unmatch rates, and unfortunate loss of life from the process. 

[indefatigable]

1 hour ago, #YOLO said:

lets have a discussion. imo quebec med schools (which are super easy to get into, and way over populated) should be banned from entering carms outside of their province. This is one of the main reasons for the massive bottleneck, high unmatch rates, and unfortunate loss of life from the process. 

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts, but this goes against pretty much all available evidence.  It's disappointing you posted this.

The "Quebec Invasion": there were a grand total of 17+2+2=21 graduates of French-speaking med schools matching out-of-province.  That's less than the number of USMGs that matched into CaRMS (24).  Maybe it's more of a US invasion?  McGill is like other English-speaking med-schools, which have lots of graduates leave the province.      
 
https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/r1_tbl29e_2018.pdf
 

[la marzocco]

On 11/21/2018 at 2:11 PM, #YOLO said:

lets have a discussion. imo quebec med schools (which are super easy to get into, and way over populated) should be banned from entering carms outside of their province. This is one of the main reasons for the massive bottleneck, high unmatch rates, and unfortunate loss of life from the process. 

 

On 11/21/2018 at 3:00 PM, tere said:

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts, but this goes against pretty much all available evidence.  It's disappointing you posted this.

The "Quebec Invasion": there were a grand total of 17+2+2=21 graduates of French-speaking med schools matching out-of-province.  That's less than the number of USMGs that matched into CaRMS (24).  Maybe it's more of a US invasion?  McGill is like other English-speaking med-schools, which have lots of graduates leave the province.      
 
https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/r1_tbl29e_2018.pdf
 

You can't just ban graduates from a particular province from entering carms outside their province. Quebec medical graduates are more bilingual than anglophones from ROC so that's why they can match ROC as well as to their francophone schools. And tbh, they have to write an English language test for some residency programs in ROC as well (e.g., UBC). If your French is up to snuff, by all means apply to the 3 French schools for residency, no one is stopping you. We need to stop this divisive language. 

To that end, why not each province administer it's own match then? You really go against the grain of ensuring mobility across the province and ensuring the best match between candidates and programs nationally. 

To be balanced, I understand @#YOLO's logic, @tere. The report released by AFMC reads: "There is a higher proportion of Quebec graduates who match outside of Quebec than graduates from the rest of Canada who match to a residency program in Quebec." 

Read the notes please: "Compared to all other provinces, Quebec has the lowest percentage of its matched applicants leaving to a position outside Quebec in 2017; almost 90% of Quebec graduates matched to a residency program within the province."

Please stop misinformation and be happy about the vibrant bilingualism this country offers.

 

[indefatigable]

45 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

 

To be balanced, I understand @#YOLO's logic, @tere. The report released by AFMC reads: "There is a higher proportion of Quebec graduates who match outside of Quebec than graduates from the rest of Canada who match to a residency program in Quebec." 

Read the notes please: "Compared to all other provinces, Quebec has the lowest percentage of its matched applicants leaving to a position outside Quebec in 2017; almost 90% of Quebec graduates matched to a residency program within the province."

Please stop misinformation and be happy about the vibrant bilingualism this country offers.

 

I don't think there's much to be balanced about - it was a pretty inflammatory post.  

My point was pretty simple - if you actually look at the numbers, there's hardly any QC graduates that do leave, except perhaps McGill graduates.  The logic you are suggesting can also applied to USMGs within the AFMC document.  In either case, there's only a marginal effect.  

As a side, the current QC premier and other politicans have long been unhappy about med grads leaving QC (esp McGill) and have in the past suggested financial penalties.  So perhaps there's some common ground between the OP and premier.  

https://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/357986/les-medecins-qui-quittent-le-quebec-doivent-rembourser-l-etat-dit-legault

Perhaps a more constructive way to look at the issue is to look at the provincial ratio of residency spots/med students.  UBC and Memorial are famously 1:1 and Ontario is about that.  NS is well above that at about 1.5:1, if I recall correctly.  
 

[la marzocco]

4 minutes ago, tere said:

I don't think there's much to be balanced about - it was a pretty inflammatory post.  

My point was pretty simple - if you actually look at the numbers, there's hardly any QC graduates that do leave, except perhaps McGill graduates.  The logic you are suggesting can also applied to USMGs within the AFMC document.  In either case, there's only a marginal effect.  

As a side, the current QC premier and other politicans have long been unhappy about med grads leaving QC (esp McGill) and have in the past suggested financial penalties.  So perhaps there's some common ground between the OP and premier.  

https://www.ledevoir.com/politique/quebec/357986/les-medecins-qui-quittent-le-quebec-doivent-rembourser-l-etat-dit-legault

Perhaps a more constructive way to look at the issue is to look at the provincial ratio of residency spots/med students.  UBC and Memorial are famously 1:1 and Ontario is about that.  NS is well above that at about 1.5:1, if I recall correctly.  

I have always been an advocate for that each province should themselves maintain a 1:20:1 ratio. But, you need to be aware of the political climate that has been driving Quebec grads out of the province with numerous controversial bills (Bill 20 and Bill 130). This has been a major driver as to why things have changed in the past decade in terms of interprovincial moves. 

[indefatigable]

.

[Aetherus]

From purely legal stand point, there is absolutely no way to ban anyone from going through CaRMS based on geography if they have the appropriate credentials. All North American MD schools are licensed by the same body abd therefore are considered equivalent. That is way USMG can apply in the first iteration.

Your suggestion is also inflammatory and would only temporized the problem without addressing the root cause. Not to mention that it would cause a lot of other problems.

[LittleDaisy]

9 hours ago, #YOLO said:

lets have a discussion. imo quebec med schools (which are super easy to get into, and way over populated) should be banned from entering carms outside of their province. This is one of the main reasons for the massive bottleneck, high unmatch rates, and unfortunate loss of life from the process. 

I did my medical training in Quebec French schools, the majority of my classmates all prefer to stay within Quebec. I only left because of the bills 20 & 130 and the overwhelming politics. Regardless, as per posts above, only a small portion of French medical students choose to match OOP. McGill is another story. 

I don't think that you should target Quebec medical students per say, rather than why each province's Ministry of Health is so stringent on financing potentially more residency positions? I don't see why financing more Family Medicine positions in first round of CaRMS in Ontario would be so hard for the government to do?

[BoopityBoop]

Let's not make Quebec or any group of people/demographic a scapegoat and martyr for a multi-factorial problem. Pointing fingers and saying "one group of people is the major problem for something" is very unlikely to be true and more unlikely to actually solve the underlying issue. 

The core issue of the problems with CaRMs is the past decreases in the number of spots for residency programs. This is a problem we have to solve together as a community in collaboration with various governing bodies.

[Snowmen]

not sure why I am bothering to write an answer as OP is an obvious troll (or intellectually challenged person) according to their past posts but:

Why should Quebec be seen as the reason for the high amount of unmatched students even though it is the only province in Canada with a significant amount of free spots left after the first and even the second round of Carms? Instead, people who are unhappy with the current situation should make themselves more marketable for the Quebec spots by, for instance, learning french. Blaming students who are taking the steps necessary to be competitive in all of Canada (those students from Quebec matching in the rest of Canada) won't lead to any meaningful improvement and will only cause further divisions, making our position weaker.

Also, your point about Quebec schools being uncompetitive and over-populated is just plain funny, if not a little sad.

[indefatigable]

5 hours ago, Snowmen said:

Instead, people who are unhappy with the current situation should make themselves more marketable for the Quebec spots by, for instance, learning french. Blaming students who are taking the steps necessary to be competitive in all of Canada (those students from Quebec matching in the rest of Canada) won't lead to any meaningful improvement and will only cause further divisions, making our position weaker.

It's a nice idea, but it's not realistic for people to learn enough French in-time for CaRMS.  English-speaking QCers don't always have an easy time with this, and similarly French-speaking QCers can also find it challenging going to an English-speaking environment.  I would say bilingualism is usually present before med school, although could be improved with exposure or learning in a different language environment. 

Unmatched students don't tend to be aiming for FM either, where most of the unfilled positions in QC are.  

[xiphoid]

On 11/22/2018 at 12:10 AM, LittleDaisy said:

I don't see why financing more Family Medicine positions in first round of CaRMS in Ontario would be so hard for the government to do?

Perhaps Ontario's $348.79 billion debt (as of March 2018) has something to do with it...

7 minutes ago, tere said:

It's a nice idea, but it's not realistic for people to learn enough French in-time for CaRMS.  English-speaking QCers don't always have an easy time with this, and similarly French-speaking QCers can also find it challenging going to an English-speaking environment.  I would say bilingualism is usually present before med school, although could be improved with exposure or learning in a different language environment. 

Definitely agree with this. The public school system in Ontario (and probably other provinces too, but I can't comment on their education curriculum) does a laughable job of teaching French, and there are hardly any opportunities to practice French with native or close-to native speakers outside of Quebec or certain parts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (although, Ottawa is surprisingly more bilingual than I would have thought). And after 12 years of intensive education in French, I would say I'm bilingual but would no way be able to survive a residency (um... medical terminology in French???) where French is the predominant language. Most people have nowhere near the level of French education that I do, so I don't think it's realistic to expect non-French speakers to learn enough French in 3-4 years to become fluent without complete immersion in the language. Ultimately though, I don't think excluding Quebec from CaRMS is the answer.

[indefatigable]

On 11/24/2018 at 7:41 PM, xiphoid said:

Definitely agree with this. The public school system in Ontario (and probably other provinces too, but I can't comment on their education curriculum) does a laughable job of teaching French, and there are hardly any opportunities to practice French with native or close-to native speakers outside of Quebec or certain parts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (although, Ottawa is surprisingly more bilingual than I would have thought). And after 12 years of intensive education in French, I would say I'm bilingual but would no way be able to survive a residency (um... medical terminology in French???) where French is the predominant language. Most people have nowhere near the level of French education that I do, so I don't think it's realistic to expect non-French speakers to learn enough French in 3-4 years to become fluent without complete immersion in the language. 

Given your strong background in French, I think you'd be capable of making the switch for residency - but it wouldn't be easy, and you'd have to get used to the medical terminology, although a lot is similar.  And you'd be working at a suboptimal level which wouldn't be great for you nor necessarily the environment you'd be in.  I think that's why there's a conservativeness when it comes to language environment switching, unless one is very bilingual (including medical terminology).