Western interview invites/regrets 2019

[JohnGrisham 1,676]

6 minutes ago, deservingstudent said:

Quite frankly, its a lot of goof up there. I think anyone and everyone who has GPA more than 3.85 and CARS more than the cutoff should write to the admission office. I have taken legal opinion and there is no way the admission process can change overnight. If the person reading our ABS and ECs loves to travel or plays guitar, finds a candidate with similar interest can call less deserving candidate for an interview. in 5 minutes, he/she can decide who gets an interview, rejecting 4 years of academic excellence or excellent ECs that are not according to his liking.  Me, my known friends , with the support of our families have found a lot of information. I can only request the deserving candidates to write to the admission department. You deserve an interview and the law will prevail. 

They definitely should have said this upfront or made an announcement "for next cycle onwards.." type of thing. BUT it is well within their right to do so and change it, but would be professional and prudent to give some sufficient notice. 

I would strongly caution "law" in this matter. Schools reserve the right to do anything they want whenever they want, its in the fine print.   You wont have a leg to stand on. 

It's just surprising that Western would make a big change without an announcement! 

 

[erythrocyte 233]

4 minutes ago, deservingstudent said:

Quite frankly, its a lot of goof up there. I think anyone and everyone who has GPA more than 3.85 and CARS more than the cutoff should write to the admission office. I have taken legal opinion and there is no way the admission process can change overnight. If the person reading our ABS and ECs loves to travel or plays guitar, finds a candidate with similar interest can call less deserving candidate for an interview. in 5 minutes, he/she can decide who gets an interview, rejecting 4 years of academic excellence or excellent ECs that are not according to his liking.  Me, my known friends , with the support of our families have found a lot of information. I can only request the deserving candidates to write to the admission department. You deserve an interview and the law will prevail. 

I very much doubt 1 single individual read all 8 of your essays. It was likely divided among 8 people, with the average of your responses being taken as your final score. This is how it works in CASPer, for UoT, MMI, etc. 

The admissions office of every school has the right to change their admission criteria from one year to the next. Western is not unique in this circumstance. To be honest, I actually admire Western for changing their criteria to allow character elements to shine through compared to the archaic method of using only GPA and MCAT. As I mentioned to you before in a previous post, possessing a good MCAT or GPA, while important, are not the sole factors that determine whether or not someone is good enough for med school.

IMO, focus on your other interviews at those Ivy schools. Perhaps take a little bit of time to reflect. Likening yourself to a 'Syrian refugee' screams to me that your line of thinking needs to come down a notch. 

 

[Jon Snow 17]

58 minutes ago, ninja7292 said:

I agree with you - Schools can do whatever, whenever. If you are the Dean of UME and realize something is going wrong with the medical students you're getting, you will want to change it. Not 4 years from now (maybe we should give Grade 12s and new undergraduates time to plan their path to med?), Not a cycle from now, RIGHT NOW! This IMMEDIATE cycle - They have the right to make the changes they deem fit to improve on their program. They don't owe it to the public to stick with their old admissions algorithm because if something is broken you fix it now.

With that said, I can empathize with the students that were lulled into a false sense of security with their chances at Western and sacrified ECs for MCAT/GPA only to see those with lesser MCAT/GPA but better aABS score get an interview. I get that. But y'all also need to see it from the schools POV, as hard as it may be.

The only issue I have with this argument is that the dean that decided to perform this overnight shift is gone and a new guy started a few weeks ago and has to deal with the repercussions on an acting basis. Why not wait for the official dean appointment and see his/her vision for the school going forward?

A delayed integration with tweaks/approval from the new dean just makes overall more sense. See how changing your curriculum changes the quality of your students, or change the students you bring in. To do both, in the same year, with new leadership turnover, it overall just gives a bad look and hurts this incoming class quite a bit. 

 

1 hour ago, Monocyte said:

very much doubt 1 single individual read all 8 of your essays. It was likely divided among 8 people, with the average of your responses being taken as your final score. This is how it works in CASPer, for UoT, MMI, etc. 

If this was the case, then it is easier to understand their decision. But like I've repeated above, it seemed quite clear that your score was an average between 2 evaluators. Which seems more believable because it is hard to believe they had the manpower to split it up in an ideal fashion. 

[EssexMed 2]

2 hours ago, deservingstudent said:

I got your phone number. Need more deserving candidates who can join us. Quite frankly, its a lot of goof up there. I think anyone and everyone who has GPA more than 3.85 and CARS more than the cutoff should write to the admission office. I have taken legal opinion and there is no way the admission process can change overnight. If the person reading our ABS and ECs loves to travel or plays guitar, finds a candidate with similar interest can call less deserving candidate for an interview. in 5 minutes, he/she can decide who gets an interview, rejecting 4 years of academic excellence or excellent ECs that are not according to his liking.  Me, my known friends , with the support of our families have found a lot of information. I can only request the deserving candidates to write to the admission department. You deserve an interview and the law will prevail. 

Writing to the admissions department will do nothing. I tried that last year following a rejection and they were of no help to me. I'm thinking of writing to the local newspaper... maybe it just might headline and showcase a lot of the struggles we face before even starting thiscareer 

Edit: I'm not even asking for the process to change overnight. I am asking for transparency--for genuine feedback on where we went wrong, otherwise it is just goof up there. The system is going to screw many more deserving students in the future. 

[JohnGrisham 1,676]

Problem with your logic is that you think the system is goofed up or that the incoming class is somehow "screwed".

They aren't. The wheels will keep turning and those that get in will continue along the process with zero functional difference. Just so happens John Doe took a seat instead of you. Got in on slightly different requirements/process but equally as qualified and capable of doing well in medicine.

Dont get sucked into a false sense of superiority by having a marginally better GPA or MCAT score.  

[struggling2getin 75]

4 hours ago, deservingstudent said:

Quite frankly, its a lot of goof up there. I think anyone and everyone who has GPA more than 3.85 and CARS more than the cutoff should write to the admission office. I have taken legal opinion and there is no way the admission process can change overnight. If the person reading our ABS and ECs loves to travel or plays guitar, finds a candidate with similar interest can call less deserving candidate for an interview. in 5 minutes, he/she can decide who gets an interview, rejecting 4 years of academic excellence or excellent ECs that are not according to his liking.  Me, my known friends , with the support of our families have found a lot of information. I can only request the deserving candidates to write to the admission department. You deserve an interview and the law will prevail. 

Don't take this as an attack or attempt to discredit you in any way but I'm curious- from the legal opinion you received, under what action will your case be founded upon?  The closest thing I can imagine possible is a claim in torts, but even then there is a significant burden of proof you have to demonstrate on your losses and potentially that these schools were somewhat indebted to you, among possible other elements depending on the claim you're making. Also, generally speaking, regulatory bodies and institutions are awarded quite a lot of discretion for their industry. 

[Sickofitall 17]

1 hour ago, JohnGrisham said:

Problem with your logic is that you think the system is goofed up or that the incoming class is somehow "screwed".

They aren't. The wheels will keep turning and those that get in will continue along the process with zero functional difference. Just so happens John Doe took a seat instead of you. Got in on slightly different requirements/process but equally as qualified and capable of doing well in medicine.

Dont get sucked into a false sense of superiority by having a marginally better GPA or MCAT score.  

Could not have said it better. Writing to a local newspaper? Petitioning the office? Nah people. Not going to work. Universities can do what they want. At best, a current legal challenge is in motion regarding residency positions for CSA's. That actually could potentially result in some changes, as there has been a similar instance of that in the past. But if you're mad that you got rejected by a medical school you just can't do anything. Sorry, nobody cares. That's the harsh truth.  This is the system we live in. Your better than average stats does not give you precedence over someone else. Being entitled will not help you. You can't brute force your way into medicine. The issue, as with a lot of things, is with government funding for residency spots. More funding= more residency and medical school positions=no unmatched grads==no suicide ideation=happiness.

[EssexMed 2]

7 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Problem with your logic is that you think the system is goofed up or that the incoming class is somehow "screwed".

They aren't. The wheels will keep turning and those that get in will continue along the process with zero functional difference. Just so happens John Doe took a seat instead of you. Got in on slightly different requirements/process but equally as qualified and capable of doing well in medicine.

Dont get sucked into a false sense of superiority by having a marginally better GPA or MCAT score.  

The system is goofed up. We deserve an explanation why we got rejected at the very least. 

When did I say the incoming class is screwed? How are you making these inferences??? 

When did I have a false sense of superiority? You don't know me in life so don't be making these assumptions when all you have read is one or two posts of mine on a premed101 forumn... 

This is another problem with the premed community. We come here to discuss our problems and how a spontaneous changed ruined our chances of getting interviews, but we get attacked by people like you. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by rmorelan

[bt30hnr4fd 17]

Time Stamp: 11:30 am

Invite/reject: Invite

IP/OOP: IP

SWOMEN (Y/N): N 

2YGPA: 3.98

MCAT (CHEM/CARS/BIO/PYSCH): 128/129/130/128 

ABS: I struggled with this. The way the AABS is structured made it hard for me because a lot of my leadership roles were in the community, a lot of of my community contributions involved a diversity of people, and so on... However, I think because of this my AABS was very cohesive, it was clear what my passions and interests were.

I really feel for everyone in this thread who met last years cutoffs but didn't receive an invite. It is a big change that I don't think anyone expected, as it is their first year looking at AABS.

However, to offer a different perspective (and a perspective I and many of my friends shared), there is no reason to ask for 9 ESSAYS, each of which are longer than the UofT essays, if they had no intention of taking a close look at them. And so my friends and I stressed over them.

[indefatigable 634]

I can understand people being upset, but I personally don't see a legal case.  Western's always had some disclaimer about making admissions cut-offs doesn't guarantee an interview - it's just in the past that rarely occurred.  It was pretty much an open secret that meeting the high MCAT-cutoffs did in fact mean an interview.  More signalling from Western would have been helpful - since people weren't sure to what extent the ABS would be taken into consideration.

Western's change to me is less radical than when McMaster added CASPer or McGill removed the MCAT to increase accessibility to the French-speaking population in Quebec.  Some felt McGill's changes, including an interest in diversity, was at the expense of the English-speaking population within Quebec.  Some people wrote letters, etc.. but ultimately McGill stayed with its changes and does now have a more diverse body than before.  There may now be more unity among both linguistic communities in medicine, at least at McGill.

The only successful push-back against changes I've seen is when Ottawa temporarily added and then dropped the MCAT.  But the argument to me seemed to be clearer regarding equity due to the bilingual character of Ottawa but the lack of a French version of the test.  I don't see an equity argument as being applicable here, at least not for adding an ABS criterion for admissions.  

[rmorelan 2,528]

On 2/2/2019 at 8:15 AM, EssexMed said:

The system is goofed up. We deserve an explanation why we got rejected at the very least. 

When did I say the incoming class is screwed? How are you making these inferences??? 

When did I have a false sense of superiority? You don't know me in life so don't be making these assumptions when all you have read is one or two posts of mine on a premed101 forumn... 

This is another problem with the premed community. We come here to discuss our problems and how a spontaneous changed ruined our chances of getting interviews, but we get attacked by people like you. 

Ok I edited that slightly as to avoid an attack as it happens - people on both sides can get heated, and there is a lot on the line so that is understandable. 

and as usually both sides have valid points. For instance I have no problem with a school changing its admissions criteria in the face of some further logical analysis or shifting values in the medical system as a whole - this goes back all the way the very creations of CanMeds which caused radical at the time shifts in selection and evaluation criteria country wide requiring a lot of changes. 

So they will change their rules, have done so before, will do so again. What I have always had issues with is changes within a single year or rather less than a year - I mean yes they all post they can change at any time, and the past system is no guarantee of a future one. That is all true. Yet they are also aware that under this kind of competitive system people map out multi year plans all trying to optimize their chances to achieving something. Giving people some heads up 2 years in advance rather than at most 3 months when the new OMSAS rules come out in July I think would be just generally more fair. Doesn't have to be all that specific either - just a heads up that they are considering evaluating X. There are a lot of people out there that have quit ECs they would love to be doing on hold to get the GPA required for the school - strongly encouraged to put those on hold in effect by the school's old rules. These people may be exactly the sort of candidate the school may even want to attract but they went into hiding under mountains of MCAT prep. Now those people are left making some pretty big adjustments after the fact that may take a long time to correct if ever. 

Just because the school can change something at any time - doesn't mean they should with little notice. They can get away with it because there are an overwhelming number of applicants which really buffers them against any choice they make. They schools will all tell you, and I completely agree, that after a reasonable level of GPA/MCAT and yes ECs you can basically randomly pick from 1000s of solid candidates and wind up with very similarly high quality class of doctors 

I also feel I personally kind of dropped the ball here. Maybe I was distracted with my royal college, or just lulled into a false sense of security with our boringly predictable Western was in the past. However once a schools starts to experiment with new admission rules - ABS or the onsite essays etc it means there is some element in that school that is dissatisfied with current evaluation system, and they are starting to try to change things. Myself and the community I suppose at large was tone deaf to that, and we usually aren't. Not sure in hindsight we could have predicted this but it still bugs me. 

Anger will lead to people exploring options - to try to do something, anything to express the impact of these changes. I can say people have gone down the legal route before and it hasn't gone very far - schools all state they change things at any point, and the new system has no obvious bias and is no less subjective than every other school in the province (which I am sure in part the new system is based on). TO, Queens, and Ottawa for instance all have a couple of people reading and subjectively evaluating under some structured guidelines ECs. The school can argue they have simply caught up with modern admission standards. If anyone finds anything different than that I would very curious what legal attack they are using. 

In the end we are still stuck with the fact the rules changed and now we are going to have to do what we always do when they change - figure out what can be done to help people improve their chances under the new system. Once this is all over we will have to get some sense of what they are looking for and go from there. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by rmorelan

[j17f 221]

Over the past few years Ottawa has gone from using GPA + Top 5 Activities in each ABC category ---> GPA + Top 3 Activities in each ABS category + CASPer (although they did not use the score) -----> GPA + CASPer + ABS (no restriction on ABS)(this year also included the potential for including the MCAT), and I think this most recent year they set minimum grades for their pre-reqs.

If I remember correctly Ottawa also limited your ABS activities to stuff you did during undergrad (so anything after graduation and during postgrad stuff would not be acceptable). I remember stressing out in my final year of my second undergrad to rack up as many hours as possible in my ABS activities, in order to be competitive. Yet that year when I fianally applied, they decided to get rid of the rule.

It sucks when schools do this, but they do reserve the right to do so. 

[jlkhhylyiluh6 92]

.

[Instagrammar 155]

If people are wanting to take legal action regarding a single medical school rejection, then I think admissions is doing their job correctly in keeping you out. 

[EssexMed 2]

47 minutes ago, Instagrammar said:

If people are wanting to take legal action regarding a single medical school rejection, then I think admissions is doing their job correctly in keeping you out. 

If a dude with a 526 and a 4.0, who is getting interviews from top schools in the US, gets rejected PRE-INTERVIEW from western... then maybe western is flawed in some way? Wouldn't you think?

[jlkhhylyiluh6 92]

3 minutes ago, EssexMed said:

If a dude with a 526 and a 4.0, who is getting interviews from top schools in the US, gets rejected PRE-INTERVIEW from western... then maybe western is flawed in some way? Wouldn't you think?

stats arent everything man. Maybe he came off as arrogant and entitled in his ABS.

[EssexMed 2]

3 minutes ago, beeboop said:

stats arent everything man. Maybe he came off as arrogant and entitled in his ABS.

Lmao. Y'all really just trying to find excuses for the schools actions. It's hysterical. 

And the key word here is "maybe"

 

[Tip4Scool 3]

Why haven't the people who are angry with UWO been leading a campaign against the other Medical Schools until now? 

Queens hasn't told anyone anything. Seems very arbitrary...
McMasters and Ottawa both look at CASPer, which is 100% more random than an ABS... 

Like Western identified that their current selection criteria were not getting the pool they wanted. They changed it. That is their right to do. There is no legal protection for the applicant. ESPECIALLY when UWO explicitly states that they publish the cycle's requirements AFTER invites. 

I understand that it sucks for people who did not get invited. But identifying why, and planning to address it is a way healthier and will better serve you, than threatening legal action against the school you are trying to impress.
 

[GlassHalfFull 12]

20 minutes ago, EssexMed said:

Lmao. Y'all really just trying to find excuses for the schools actions. It's hysterical. 

And the key word here is "maybe"

 

.

[erythrocyte 233]

2 minutes ago, EssexMed said:

Lmao. Ya'll really just trying to find excuses for the schools actions. It's hysterical. 

And the key word here is "maybe"

 

Want to know what’s hysterical? Holding onto the old belief that MCAT and GPA alone define good candidates. If that worked so well, why have all schools abandoned that method of selection? 

Sure it would have been nice for Western to give more notification that it would change. However, we’re not entitled to that, just like we’re not entitled to interviews, nor are we entitled to a position in the school. We play a game when we submit our applications, and not everyone can be a ‘winner’. 

[medabe 21]

21 minutes ago, beeboop said:

stats arent everything man. Maybe he came off as arrogant and entitled in his ABS.

I hesitate to get into the fray, but while i understand the frustration of self-proclaimed/self-named "deserving student", who had a 524 MCAT and a 3.96 GPA (obviously outstanding stats) and was still denied a Western interview invite, it may indeed be time for some self reflection. Deserving student did not get an interview at Queens either...so the question is, was there something in his/her essays or EC's or reference letters that raised concerns? because clearly it could not have been the stellar GPA and the stellar MCAT. I would suggest having someone review the essays to see if maybe they come off in a way that he/she does not intend? Hard to know. I also note that last year tons of applicants were upset that they did not get an interview at Western because they missed the HARD 129 in CARS by one point, or missed the HARD 3.7 by a point....so hard to please all of the people all of the time. 

[EssexMed 2]

7 minutes ago, GlassHalfFull said:

.

How do you want me to approach rejection after 3 cycles!? Im angry, im tired, and im drained. It has taken its toll on me... i don't know how to improve my application for next cycle besides getting a masters. Nothing is guaranteed even if i do obtain a masters.

Im done arguing. Peace

[GlassHalfFull 12]

2 minutes ago, EssexMed said:

How do you want me to approach rejection after 3 cycles!? Im angry, im tired, and im drained. It has taken its toll on me... i don't know how to improve my application for next cycle besides getting a masters. Nothing is guaranteed even if i do obtain a masters.

Im done arguing. Peace

Hey man, your frustration and anger comes from a fair place. We are all human and I am sure most of us here have experienced it, with this being some of our 2, 3rd, 4th etc application cycles. I would approach it as a learning and growing experience. If medicine is absolutely what you want to do, I recommend you take your time and critically analyze your application. Obviously, as previously mentioned, both you and deservingstudent have exceptional stats, so it must come down to the non-academics. Go to others and ask them to go through your application and see what they think of what you have down, with respect to the characteristics the school is asking for. One important thing is the way you present your experiences. The school does not care how much responsibility you had and how big of a team you managed, for example, they want to see how those experiences mesh with the qualities they're looking for. I apologize if this is something you already know, but I am going to echo what others have said, and with all due respect, please take some time for yourself and think about what you can change for next cycle. With your stats, I am sure you do not need to do a Master's. Best of luck.

[medabe 21]

17 hours ago, EssexMed said:

How do you want me to approach rejection after 3 cycles!? Im angry, im tired, and im drained. It has taken its toll on me... i don't know how to improve my application for next cycle besides getting a masters. Nothing is guaranteed even if i do obtain a masters.

Im done arguing. Peace

Hey EssexMed, I am sorry to hear you received a rejection this year. I see you had an interview at Western last year. I assume that means you have at least a 129 on CARS? Maybe what you need to do is have someone review your Western essays next year? Someone who can help you relate your obviously great EC's to the criteria Western is looking for? I know it takes a toll to have to wait another year.but don't give up. my 2 cents for what they're worth

 

[EssexMed 2]

2 minutes ago, GlassHalfFull said:

Hey man, your frustration and anger comes from a fair place. We are all human and I am sure most of us here have experienced it, with this being some of our 2, 3rd, 4th etc application cycles. I would approach it as a learning and growing experience. If medicine is absolutely what you want to do, I recommend you take your time and critically analyze your application. Obviously, as previously mentioned, both you and deservingstudent have exceptional stats, so it must come down to the non-academics. Go to others and ask them to go through your application and see what they think of what you have down, with respect to the characteristics the school is asking for. One important thing is the way you present your experiences. The school does not care how much responsibility you had and how big of a team you managed, for example, they want to see how those experiences mesh with the qualities they're looking for. I apologize if this is something you already know, but I am going to echo what others have said, and with all due respect, please take some time for yourself and think about what you can change for next cycle. With your stats, I am sure you do not need to do a Master's. Best of luck.

Thanks man. I appreciate your genuine response.