ND/MD

[Bookmark311]

What is the advantage of holding both degrees? Is it common to have both degrees

[JohnGrisham]

Nice try stirring up controversy.

No it is not common to have both.

[blah1234]

I've always wondered about the utility of having both. I assume the NP college is much less strict than the MD counterpart and I wonder if you could just hang up a shingle for holistic medicine and try to leverage your MD to get patients/clients. 

I think as long as you aren't registered with the MD college they can't really take any action if you practice within the scope of being an NP (which is pretty broad if I understand correctly). 

I'm not sure of the return on investment is worth it though. 

[JohnGrisham]

3 minutes ago, blah1234 said:

I've always wondered about the utility of having both. I assume the NP college is much less strict than the MD counterpart and I wonder if you could just hang up a shingle for holistic medicine and try to leverage your MD to get patients/clients. 

I think as long as you aren't registered with the MD college they can't really take any action if you practice within the scope of being an NP (which is pretty broad if I understand correctly). 

I'm not sure of the return on investment is worth it though. 

But what would the leverage be? You'd have to pay privately cash or through limited insurance.

[Bookmark311]

32 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

Nice try stirring up controversy.

No it is not common to have both.

I was not trying to stir any controversy. I’m genuinely curious

 

[blah1234]

16 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

But what would the leverage be? You'd have to pay privately cash or through limited insurance.

I think the people seeing NDs are okay with paying for it out of pocket as they get a more "personalized experience". I think the ND/MD could bamboozle people into thinking "oh this is a medical doctor that also believes in the holistic therapies that I want to try". I think it's nothing more than a credibility marker during advertising.

I'm not sure of the ND training pathway but it has no residency component right? If so I suppose it could offer MDs who can't access residency to practice as you have the same ability to prescribe/order tests/inject (notwithstanding the additional time and money investment needed to complete an ND).

Honestly, this is all conjecture. I have no idea how practical this is in reality. 

[xiphoid]

Most people who are in the midst of pursuing a MD are likely not interested in the therapies that a ND has to offer. I think it's mostly a selection bias. There are treatments offered by a ND that do provide symptom relief to patients, but I am yet to be convinced it is anything but leveraging the placebo effect. It's not bad per se (if the placebo effect works in relieving someone's pain, then yay for the placebo effect), but I personally have no interest in offering those therapies to any patients. As long as patients are not pursuing naturopathic medicine in lieu of modern/allopathic medicine and the naturopathic medicine itself isn't harmful, then I see nothing wrong with patients going to see a ND on the side. (When they start to believe in the ND over the MD or completely abandon the MD is where I think naturopathy starts to get harmful...) This seems to be the opinion that is shared by many of my med school classmates, which I think partially explains why there are few who hold both a ND and a MD.

[freewheeler]

You don't need an ND to offer similar services if you already have an MD.

You just have to market yourself accordingly and you'll have a leg up.

[jlkhhylyiluh6]

7 hours ago, freewheeler said:

You don't need an ND to offer similar services if you already have an MD.

You just have to market yourself accordingly and you'll have a leg up.

can you, though? Wouldnt you be reprimanded by the college for offering/using treatments without any evidence?

[Intrepid86]

It's not common to have both degrees. I'm not basing this off stats, just the fact that I don't personally know, and also haven't seen, any before. An ND is a 4 year commitment on top of undergrad, and doing a subsequent MD + residency would truly be an academic marathon. 

I would simply regard this doctor as an MD with a heavy interest in Complementary and Alternative Medicine. There's nothing advantageous about that in and of itself unless you're a patient looking for a very holistic physician with a confirmed open mind. This doc would still need to practice within their regulatory college's policies with regards to CAM.

Of course, I'm assuming this person chooses to practice as a medical doctor, and not primarily as a naturopath. If licensed in both, then it should be abundantly clear in what professional capacity they're operating in.

[blah1234]

2 hours ago, beeboop said:

can you, though? Wouldnt you be reprimanded by the college for offering/using treatments without any evidence?

That's the thing, I think the MD college would be much more strict in because of evidence-based medicine. If you just held an ND/MD school and were only registered and regulated by the NP college then you could do a lot of non-evidence-based medicine under the guise of holistic/naturopathic therapy.

Also since the service isn't provincially covered you could bill privately like most NDs and charge above OHIP rates. 

I still think it's a bad idea and return on investment though.

[LostLamb]

The only MD/ND I know of (indirectly) is one that does not practice in Canada. They trained as an MD and then did subsequent training as ND and reportedly have lots of satisfied clients. 

Maybe if you practice in a country without subsidized healthcare, then it is worth it. In Canada, I do not see benefit in this path. I can only foresee someone who trained as an ND and desiring to do "more" pursuing training as an MD and largely abandoning the ND practise.