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[wishcalculator]

Ultimately, you have to pick where you will be happiest and where your support network is. Every school has about equal potential to allow you to match equally to a competitive speciality if you desire. Also, tuition/price of living costs. Not sure what Alberta/Manitoba tuition is like but Ontario is wild.

Barring that, the main thing should be 3 year vs 4 year school. There are some valid criticisms of 3 year schools (Calgary), but you do also finish one year earlier and people do match to competitive specialties. However, you're from Calgary, so the condensed curriculum may be something you're OK with or willing to deal with by being close to existing networks.

Are there any particular schools that stood out to you during your interviews? That might be a question worth asking too.

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[m_jacob_45]

Just to follow up on match rates, the data is very difficult to interpret and not straightforward. Essentially all the schools have a high match rate and there is variation from year to year. Its very difficult to interpret the match rate data since some schools will strongly encourage backing up to protect their match rates, so its hard to get a sense as an outsider how to compare the rates between schools (some schools may not suggest backing up as much as others, hard to know how many people matched to their top choices in terms of specialty and location). Also some people prefer to go unmatched than to back up especially in more competitive specialties. 

[ZBL]

If a competitive specialty is on the radar, then I’d suggest a 4 year school. Since you mentioned no surgery, this essentially means derm and EM since the next most competitive non-FRCSC programs are Anesthesia and Pediatrics which you can match from anywhere. Same for EM and derm and other competitive surgical things, but for sure in the case of derm/plastics/ophtho more time gives you more time to build a stronger application and connections which is critical. 

In terms of research/technology, don’t put so much stake in Toronto and UBC. No doubt they are good in general and even have some world-class things going on, but so do every other Canadian University and Toronto/UBC are far from the leaders in R&D for every specialty in medicine let alone domains of science. An MD does not train you to be a world class scientist anyway, so don’t worry about it. Having a few research opportunities is really all you need. 

Tuition is also an important consideration, as is location as you already know.  

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2 minutes ago, InquisitiveMan said:

Anesthesia, Peds and EM do seem interesting to me! Again, can't say for sure until I get some clinical experience (and actually get accepted into medical school haha). If I choose to strive for something like Ana/Peds/EM/Derm, wouldn't I need to build a research heavy application since they are so competitive?

Haven't started medical school yet, just a disclaimer. I don't think research will be make or break CaRMS, having 1-2 publications is probably sufficient for matching to competitive programs. From what I've heard, what really matters is connections and soft skills.

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[gangliocytoma]

13 minutes ago, InquisitiveMan said:

Anesthesia, Peds and EM do seem interesting to me! Again, can't say for sure until I get some clinical experience (and actually get accepted into medical school haha). If I choose to strive for something like Ana/Peds/EM/Derm, wouldn't I need to build a research heavy application since they are so competitive?

 

10 minutes ago, wishcalculator said:

Haven't started medical school yet, just a disclaimer. I don't think research will be make or break CaRMS, having 1-2 publications is probably sufficient for matching to competitive programs. From what I've heard, what really matters is connections and soft skills.

Research becomes more and more important the more competitive a specialty becomes. All those (minus peds) are considered very competitive specialities and you'd likely be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't have any research before CaRMs. I think EM and derm are in the top 3 of competitiveness. We recently had a talk from clerks who matched to anesthesia and all of them said they thought their research was important in them matching and tried to dispel the advice that's commonly propagated (i.e. that research isn't important). 

Also, getting into research is a great way to make connections. I think clinical research is more valuable this way, because if your supervisor is a clinician you can shadow them and try to book electives with them. Once you move along with your project, you may get asked to present at the departmental research day where you would be able to meet and network with other physicians and residents. Assuming you have a good relationship with your supervisor, I think this would make for an excellent letter for CaRMs.

Getting 1-2 publications is easier said than done. Even if the research itself is done, with the rate it takes for reviewers to get back to you it can take well over a year to get published. Or you can face numerous rejections as you descend the ladder of impact factor.

[wishcalculator]

1 minute ago, gangliocytoma said:

 

Research becomes more and more important the more competitive a specialty becomes. All those (minus peds) are considered very competitive specialities and you'd likely be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't have any research before CaRMs. I think EM and derm are in the top 3 of competitiveness. We recently had a talk from clerks who matched to anesthesia and all of them said they thought their research was important in them matching and tried to dispel the advice that's commonly propagated (i.e. that research isn't important). 

Also, getting into research is a great way to make connections. I think clinical research is more valuable this way, because if your supervisor is a clinician you can shadow them and try to book electives with them. Once you move along with your project, you may get asked to present at the departmental research day where you would be able to meet and network with other physicians and residents. Assuming you have a good relationship with your supervisor, I think this would make for an excellent letter for CaRMs.

Getting 1-2 publications is easier said than done. Even if the research itself is done, with the rate it takes for reviewers to get back to you it can take well over a year to get published. Or you can face numerous rejections as you descend the ladder of impact factor.

Interesting bit about the research, thank you for sharing that. I agree that research is an excellent networking tool especially as you get into conferences, working with partners, etc. It certainly isn't easy either. But would the ability to publish be significantly better at one school versus another (among the 4 year schools)?

[gangliocytoma]

Just now, wishcalculator said:

Interesting bit about the research, thank you for sharing that. I agree that research is an excellent networking tool especially as you get into conferences, working with partners, etc. It certainly isn't easy either. But would the ability to publish be significantly better at one school versus another (among the 4 year schools)?

Id argue going anywhere with less learners is better for that. Less learners = less competition for research = more chances you get what you want.

It also works that way in terms of clinical learning. If you're in the room on an observership and there is a senior clerk, resident, fellow, and attending there with you, there's practically zero chance you'll do anything more than shadow. On the other hand, if it's just you and the attending, you will play a bigger role.

[xiphoid]

5 minutes ago, gangliocytoma said:

Id argue going anywhere with less learners is better for that. Less learners = less competition for research = more chances you get what you want.

It also works that way in terms of clinical learning. If you're in the room on an observership and there is a senior clerk, resident, fellow, and attending there with you, there's practically zero chance you'll do anything more than shadow. On the other hand, if it's just you and the attending, you will play a bigger role.

This.

I know Toronto really well, and being at Queen's now, I would definitely say it is easier to get involved in research at Queen's. Toronto has more diverse research going on (e.g. if you are only interested in doing basic science research on Sprague-Dawley rat models to look at the role D gene plays in X disease, then you're probably not going to find that at a less research-intensive university compared to Toronto but you're also probably going to be more satisfied in a PhD or MD/PhD program than a MD program alone) but if you want to get involved in research for the experience, the learning, the networking, CaRMS, etc and aren't already set on the exact thing you want to research, then any university with a medical school is going to have enough research opportunities to suffice (except the distributed education campuses perhaps that are usually in much smaller towns). The advantage of non-Toronto/Vancouver schools for research too is that there are fewer learners but because these are still academic physicians, they are still motivated to get out publications. And well... there are less hands for them to choose from to help them do the work, and medical students will often get opportunities that are rare or much harder to come by in Toronto. I really don't think lack of research intensity is a reason someone should be choosing X school over Y school.

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[gangliocytoma]

18 hours ago, InquisitiveMan said:

Being at Queens, is tuition and living away from home a big burden?

Also, do you feel like your fellow Queens graduates have had a lot of success matching into competitive specialities?

Lastly, why did you choose Queens for medicine?

This leads me to think that you lived at home during your undergrad. I think getting out of the house and living on your own is an important thing to do. 

You'll be in debt no matter where you go. I don't know how much money would have been saved if I ended up in another province, but at the end of the day I'm not losing sleep about it.

Queen's had a very strong match into competitive specialties this year.

[Edict]

21 hours ago, xiphoid said:

This.

I know Toronto really well, and being at Queen's now, I would definitely say it is easier to get involved in research at Queen's. Toronto has more diverse research going on (e.g. if you are only interested in doing basic science research on Sprague-Dawley rat models to look at the role D gene plays in X disease, then you're probably not going to find that at a less research-intensive university compared to Toronto but you're also probably going to be more satisfied in a PhD or MD/PhD program than a MD program alone) but if you want to get involved in research for the experience, the learning, the networking, CaRMS, etc and aren't already set on the exact thing you want to research, then any university with a medical school is going to have enough research opportunities to suffice (except the distributed education campuses perhaps that are usually in much smaller towns). The advantage of non-Toronto/Vancouver schools for research too is that there are fewer learners but because these are still academic physicians, they are still motivated to get out publications. And well... there are less hands for them to choose from to help them do the work, and medical students will often get opportunities that are rare or much harder to come by in Toronto. I really don't think lack of research intensity is a reason someone should be choosing X school over Y school.

Did you know Toronto as a medical student though? 

There is a big jump in terms of what research opps are given to you for a med student vs undergrad etc. Not sure what you did for undergrad but it seems you are in med school at Queens and it really is hard to compare even grad school at UofT vs med school at Queens because the kinds of research opps are different. 

I do agree that you should not underemphasize the research opportunities at schools that produce less research volume. UofT has lots of volume, but the intensity and productivity is not necessarily any higher. I may be biased but I really do believe clinical research at McMaster, especially their evidence based clin epi research (which is basically what clin research is these days), is more advanced at McMaster than Toronto or probably any other school in the country. It may be easier to get involved in research at a smaller more research intensive school, but all in all, I don't think there really is a huge difference. So unless you are highly interested in an academic career and want the biggest headstart possible, I wouldn't put research too high up on my uni choice. 

If I had to pick though, it really depends on the field of course, but I do find that generally speaking, good high quality research opportunities are found at schools that are more research intensive (research dollars per researcher), so schools like McMaster, Toronto, UBC, Ottawa, McGill, UofA may be really a great choice when it comes to this. The reason for this is you really want the researcher you work with to be someone who knows how to publish and publishes well. This is opposed to someone who gives you an idea and leaves you up to your own devices to make it work. The former will result in more and better pubs than the latter. 

 

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[frenchpress]

It seems like others are already weighing in on the research opportunities and other aspects, so I’ll just give my plug for UBC. As a fellow Albertan who moved to Vancouver for school years ago, I will say hands down it was the single best decision I ever made. I love it here. I acknowledge that not everyone I know who has moved here from Edmonton/Calgary shares my experience.     But most of them do. I didn't appreciate how much the shitty winter weather and spending half my year indoors, or having to spend so much of my time in a car commuting across that frozen hell scape was ruining my life until I left and realized that things could be different.

All the things people say about how expensive it is to live in Vancouver are true — it’s ridiculous.  But if you have family support and money is not going to be a huge issue for you and/or you’re comfortable with the considerably larger debt compared to staying in Alberta, then you’ll manage fine. (I am assuming you listed Vancouver as your primary site and not one of the other sites, where cost is typically less of an issue).

Overall, I am pretty happy with the education and opportunities at UBC, although there are some downsides. I am happy to share more about what going to UBC as a Med student is like if you’d like to PM me specific questions. 

 

 

[xiphoid]

1 hour ago, Edict said:

Did you know Toronto as a medical student though? 

Not personally of course, but most of my friends in medicine (those I was friends with before starting medical school specifically) are mostly in or graduated from Toronto med. I've also worked very extensively in research in Toronto, and used to be the research coordinator for a few PIs that hired lots of UofT med students. I do feel like I know plenty about the research opportunities given to Toronto med students to be able to compare it to the opportunities I have at Queen's.

[xiphoid]

21 hours ago, InquisitiveMan said:

Being at Queens, is tuition and living away from home a big burden?

Also, do you feel like your fellow Queens graduates have had a lot of success matching into competitive specialities?

Lastly, why did you choose Queens for medicine?

I would 100% move out. You can't live with your parents forever and living on your own (or more often, with roommates because rent is pricey) teaches you so much. I know people who stayed at home for university and some who also stayed at home for medical school, and I don't envy them one bit. Moving out was probably the single best thing I did as a 17 year old, and I can say I am absolutely more mature as a result compared to my friends who lived at home.

Queen's always has a very good match for competitive specialties. You can find the breakdown on the CaRMS website under "Data Reports". This year for example, we matched 12 students into anesthesiology, and 1 into dermatology (2 in derm last year). Queen's students in general choose to apply for family medicine less often than other medical schools (our Dean recently wrote a blog post about it), and apply for specialties more often. Our match rates are the highest in the country with only minor fluctuations from year to year.

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[Edict]

7 hours ago, InquisitiveMan said:

Yup, I've lived at home during undergrad.

Where can I find info on strong match rates into competitive specialties based on medical schools? 

No matter where you go, move out. You don't have to move away from home, but move to where your med school is. It's just better for your own personal growth and this could very well be worth much more than the money you spend moving out. 

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[OwnerOfTheTARDIS]

6 hours ago, InquisitiveMan said:

That's true, however if I get into medical school at my home university, can't I experience that in Residency?

A perspective from someone who moved out for the first time for med school: I love it. I love living alone. I don’t think I could ever go back, even though I have a great relationship with my parents. I am also constantly jealous of my few classmates able to live at home through med school because they are saving SO much money. Like, they could literally go on a $4000 vacation during break and still have saved around $10,000 compared to me.

So if you’re happy living at home, I’d recommend continuing to do so because you’d save a lot of money and once you experience living on your own, it’s much harder to go back. 

[Edict]

On 4/6/2019 at 10:27 AM, InquisitiveMan said:

That's true, however if I get into medical school at my home university, can't I experience that in Residency?

Its mostly just a growth thing. There is nothing wrong with staying at home for medical school, especially if you are saving money. The benefit I saw as someone who moved away from undergrad was that I grew greatly as a person in those years. Being away from home forces you into experiences that will grow and change you as a person. I feel like those changes on the whole are positive. Some of my friends who stayed at home for university are the same people they were in high school while I have gained perspective, met people, become more confident, independent etc. via my experiences. 

I think the sooner that you can move out the better you are able to experience those things. Your early mid 20s are the time when you grow and change. After that you start to set in your ways.