Phd Student, IP in AB, What are the best international options for an MD?

[lasko.heater]

Hi PM101ers,

I'm in my final year of Phd, and an  IP applicant in AB. I've been applying for medicine for the last 5 years. I have received two interviews at Calgary, but my application was unsuccessful post-interview. I never received interviews at University of Alberta.

If my application is unsuccessful this time around, I would like to pursue my medical degree at an international school since  med school admission in Alberta is very competitive and I don't have the energy  to get another undergrad degree or improve my MCAT score. 

My GPA is 3.6, my MCAT is 500.  I'm very open to pursuing international MD options and was wondering which international school would be the best option for my MD? Which international school  has good research opportunities?  I'd like to pursue research in the area of respiratory medicine / internal medicine.

Thanks everyone!!

[indefatigable]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you're just better off improving MCAT, maybe GPA and non-academics then re-applying with a stronger application rather than going international.  I know it sucks to go down that route, with a soon to be completed PhD, but med school is demanding and proving you have the stats is important.  

You've had interviews at Calgary which is great - you can build from that by interview practice and possibly rewriting your application.  You can try applying more broadly with your completed PhD - you get IP in BC.  

If you go international, the competition to get residency as an IMG is fierce - and applying to the US would mean writing the USMLEs which take even more prep than the MCAT.  Not to mention the extremely high cost.  

If you're tired now, hustling as an international to get a residency position won't be any easier.  USDO would at least give you better access to US residency positions.

 

[JohnGrisham]

How many MCAT attempts and breakdown? You should retake the MCAT. Much better option than going abroad. If you can't retake and improve, the odds of doing well abroad on the many licensing exams doesn't look good.

Your grades and ecs are obviously good enough for UofC. Sounds like MCAT and interview are holding you back. Seems odd to go abroad if you're at The interview stage at a Canadian school

[Intrepid86]

On 4/22/2019 at 3:22 PM, lasko.heater said:

My GPA is 3.6, my MCAT is 500.  I'm very open to pursuing international MD options and was wondering which international school would be the best option for my MD? Which international school  has good research opportunities?  I'd like to pursue research in the area of respiratory medicine / internal medicine.

If you're prioritizing "research opportunities" in your decision making about where to go abroad, then frankly you're not adequately informed about the IMG route and what's involved. If you knew exactly what you're getting into, then research would be one of the last things on your mind.

[goleafsgochris]

This is gonna come off as insulting and I don’t mean it that way, but going international when you’re getting in province interviews is such a profoundly terrible decision I honestly have to question if you’re trolling. Work on your interview skills and rewrite the MCAT. Jesus lol

[xiphoid]

As people above have already clearly laid out, don't go the IMG route. Rewrite your MCAT and work on your interview skills. If you can't/don't mentally want to improve your MCAT score from a 500, then you realistically are not going to do well on the USMLEs and likely will never land a residency position since the US is the best shot Canadian IMGs have at getting residency.

[Butterfly_]

After improving your MCAT, especially CARS, I think you should also try applying broadly across Canada to increase your chances.

 

 

[blah1234]

I would echo everyone above. International schools are incredibly risky. Best case you match worst case you dig yourself a financial hole that you and your family will spend years to dig out of. 

Apply to Canada broadly to expand your chances. 

Medicine also isn't the only career out there for you. It may seem like you only have one road ahead of you but there are many paths to happiness and success. I speak this as a person who worked as another professional and thought that I had found my calling then. 

[jr2]

Are you set on practicing in Canada? There is significant international recruitment for duke nus in Singapore. They are required to do a full time year of research as part of their program, but there is a return of service agreement and I believe you must do residency in Singapore. I don't believe the residency training is accepted here but I'm not sure. If you don't mind learning and living in Singapore PERMANENTLY, I think it's a great option. They also have loads of admissions scholarships. I was tempted to apply last year...

[ZBL]

Going to give you some contrasting advice to consider.

My advice is to consider not doing med school at all, in Canada or elsewhere. Fully serious and it has nothing to do with whether you can or can’t get in somewhere. You could probably get in to a Canadian school if you really wanted given you’ve interviewed previously, but I urge you to think very carefully about this. Shadow someone if at all possible, and I mean legitimately shadow them for a week on full service to see what it’s like if you can. 

Even if you’re just reasonably content with research (which it sounds like you are), my opinion is that you have an excellent career trajectory already with the PhD such that I don’t know if the financial sacrifice and sheer pain and suffering over the next 10 years of med school and residency is worth it (for you to decide - but think about it). Ten years of even modest PhD salary goes a long way when the alternative is being 200K in the hole as a late 30s man/woman just starting your career. Doing an MD/PhD helps to offset costs a bit, and some specialty choices can also offset that cost, but it is usually an overall financial disadvantage to do a PhD separately before med school. Plus you can’t buy back your age.

This really comes down to how badly you want to be a doctor. If you see your life no other way, then you have your answer but think carefully. 

[indefatigable]

38 minutes ago, ZBL said:

Going to give you some contrasting advice to consider.

My advice is to consider not doing med school at all, in Canada or elsewhere. Fully serious and it has nothing to do with whether you can or can’t get in somewhere. You could probably get in to a Canadian school if you really wanted given you’ve interviewed previously, but I urge you to think very carefully about this. Shadow someone if at all possible, and I mean legitimately shadow them for a week on full service to see what it’s like if you can. 

Even if you’re just reasonably content with research (which it sounds like you are), my opinion is that you have an excellent career trajectory already with the PhD such that I don’t know if the financial sacrifice and sheer pain and suffering over the next 10 years of med school and residency is worth it (for you to decide - but think about it). Ten years of even modest PhD salary goes a long way when the alternative is being 200K in the hole as a late 30s man/woman just starting your career. Doing an MD/PhD helps to offset costs a bit, and some specialty choices can also offset that cost, but it is usually an overall financial disadvantage to do a PhD separately before med school. Plus you can’t buy back your age.

This really comes down to how badly you want to be a doctor. If you see your life no other way, then you have your answer but think carefully. 

Agree - to be fair the PhD job outlook isn't often that great, especially when compared to medicine.  Post-docs can be indefinite and usually aren't well-paid, even if they can be obtained.

Nonetheless, a primary interest in medicine is a much better motivator and reason vs thinking the grass is greener on the other side.

[ZBL]

46 minutes ago, tere said:

Agree - to be fair the PhD job outlook isn't often that great, especially when compared to medicine.  Post-docs can be indefinite and usually aren't well-paid, even if they can be obtained.

Nonetheless, a primary interest in medicine is a much better motivator and reason vs thinking the grass is greener on the other side.

Also agree PhD job outlook isn’t perfect, but realistically no one is getting jobs quickly these days. Depending on the field of PhD and willingness to relocate, job outlook may actually be better than some fields of medicine (looking at you CV surgery, ortho etc). In general I think industry and government jobs are still reasonable to come by if you can relocate, academia of course is much tougher. 

[indefatigable]

8 hours ago, ZBL said:

Also agree PhD job outlook isn’t perfect, but realistically no one is getting jobs quickly these days. Depending on the field of PhD and willingness to relocate, job outlook may actually be better than some fields of medicine (looking at you CV surgery, ortho etc). In general I think industry and government jobs are still reasonable to come by if you can relocate, academia of course is much tougher. 

  Agree to an extent - for some PhDs taking a job not related to their training would be similar to a MD taking a job outside of clinical medicine  (maybe without the debt load).  Sure accounting could work with a PhD in a non related field, but a bit of overkill.  For sure some PhDs have better jobs outlooks like economics, CS with AI..  

fellowships also pay much better than post docs which can last 10 years or more.   I haven’t heard of more than a couple years of fellowships after which staff pay is much  better.  

Not to say it’s an ideal situation just that the PhD outlook  is at an extent where there’s no economic reason to pursue PhDs, generally speaking.  In medicine, docs end up in the highest percentiles of earnings,  depending on specialty and years of income.

An analogy of PhD and premed might be more appropriate and given for example the success rate of getting tenure track jobs from 1 to 20% at that level of training.

 

[goleafsgochris]

Yaaa I think saying that the PhD would yield similar results to medicine is overkill.

Even though some docs are unemployed, the vast majority do get jobs right out of residency/fellowship. Like 10 years after starting Canadian med school I would say more than 80% of ppl are making 200k. What percent of people are making that much 10 years after starting their PhD? Under 10%, seriously. 

That being said, I would take a PhD over going overseas for med school

[ZBL]

4 minutes ago, tere said:

  Agree to an extent - for some PhDs taking a job not related to their training would be similar to a MD taking a job outside of clinical medicine  (maybe without the debt load).  Sure accounting could work with a PhD in a non related field, but a bit of overkill.  For sure some PhDs have better jobs outlooks like economics, CS with AI..  

fellowships also pay much better than post docs which can last 10 years or more.   I haven’t heard of more than a couple years of fellowships after which staff pay is much  better.  

Not to say it’s an ideal situation just that the PhD outlook  is at an extent where there’s no economic reason to pursue PhDs, generally speaking.  In medicine, docs end up in the highest percentiles of earnings,  depending on specialty and years of earnings.

Also agree to an extent lol. I think we are both kind of saying the same thing, but I’ll add in some more thoughts here anyway.

A PhD first and foremost trains you to be an independent investigator capable of applying the scientific method to creatively solve and systematically study a problem. The content area is just what matters in an academic setting if you’re looking to build your career as a content expert in something, but a PhD is meant to be portable - many, many PhDs change their primary field from their PhD to their post-doc to their first job, to later jobs etc. Outside of academics, I’d even say most PhDs will be doing something different from the content area of their PhD. And in many industries, PhDs are hired for their general area of expertise rather than a specific one. That’s why I tell people interested in a PhD that the specific project you do really doesn’t matter - find a good training environment in a general area of interest (eg. Physics, biology, chemistry, epidemiology etc) to show you how to do good science, how to coordinate a project, how to plan a study, recognizing limitations and potential setbacks before they happen etc. Things like techniques, content expertise etc can be learned as you need them. 

Post docs for 10 years is rare unless you want to stay in academics. Most wanting an industry/government job won’t do more than 1-3 years. Yes post docs get paid less than a fellowship, but it’s also occurring when you are late 20s/early 30s as opposed to late 30s/early 40s (assuming you have a PhD entering med school as in OPs case).  

By no means am I saying that a PhD is an easy road to a job. It’s still challenging and yes jobs are not just laying around. But same for some specialties in medicine. Like we always say on here “you can’t predict the job market in 5-7 years,” and same goes for PhDs. As a PhD, majority of the time total career earnings will be less than that of a physicians. However, like I said, money as a physician doesn’t buy back your youth, doesn’t bring back the missed birthdays/family events, and sure as heck doesn’t buy you a better work-life balance for many specialties compared to a PhD. 

Again this is all on the assumption of having a PhD then going to work, vs having a PhD then med school. It’s that added delay that makes things less clear. Straight out of undergrad to either a PhD vs med school is a different story.

Anyways, we are off topic lol. 

[ZBL]

5 minutes ago, goleafsgochris said:

Yaaa I think saying that the PhD would yield similar results to medicine is overkill.

Even though some docs are unemployed, the vast majority do get jobs right out of residency/fellowship. Like 10 years after starting Canadian med school I would say more than 80% of ppl are making 200k. What percent of people are making that much 10 years after starting their PhD? Under 10%, seriously. 

That being said, I would take a PhD over going overseas for med school

You have missed the point. We are talking about OPs case where they already have a PhD, and could start working rather than delaying until they are 40. This is a very different discussion if we are talking about an undergrad choosing a PhD vs med school, or an MD/PhD where there is at least some debt relief along the way.

Yes typical pay won’t be as much as a PhD, and I never said it was going to be, but the opportunity cost of the time commitment that is med school, residency, fellowship and the debt that comes with that (OP is not MD/PhD) is huge when there’s a reasonable option ready to go right now that will yield a good life and getting started on life 10 years earlier.  

[indefatigable]

1 hour ago, ZBL said:

 Yes post docs get paid less than a fellowship, but it’s also occurring when you are late 20s/early 30s as opposed to late 30s/early 40s (assuming you have a PhD entering med school as in OPs case).  

By no means am I saying that a PhD is an easy road to a job. It’s still challenging and yes jobs are not just laying around. But same for some specialties in medicine. Like we always say on here “you can’t predict the job market in 5-7 years,” and same goes for PhDs. As a PhD, majority of the time total career earnings will be less than that of a physicians. However, like I said, money as a physician doesn’t buy back your youth, doesn’t bring back the missed birthdays/family events, and sure as heck doesn’t buy you a better work-life balance for many specialties compared to a PhD. 

Again this is all on the assumption of having a PhD then going to work, vs having a PhD then med school. It’s that added delay that makes things less clear. Straight out of undergrad to either a PhD vs med school is a different story.

Anyways, we are off topic lol. 

Agree that we have gone off topic, and that these are important issues for the OP to consider before committing themselves to medicine - in particular carefully considering current opportunities wrt to research outside of medicine, and a continued financial deferment in terms of earnings.  No question the OP may have other life considerations and medicine, especially international, would involve a great degree of instability and even potential loss.  

The age/time factor with the OP, given already many years of study/research, may be particularly important as physicians sometimes need to take fellowships as we have discussed.  

 

[Edict]

On 4/22/2019 at 3:22 PM, lasko.heater said:

Hi PM101ers,

I'm in my final year of Phd, and an  IP applicant in AB. I've been applying for medicine for the last 5 years. I have received two interviews at Calgary, but my application was unsuccessful post-interview. I never received interviews at University of Alberta.

If my application is unsuccessful this time around, I would like to pursue my medical degree at an international school since  med school admission in Alberta is very competitive and I don't have the energy  to get another undergrad degree or improve my MCAT score. 

My GPA is 3.6, my MCAT is 500.  I'm very open to pursuing international MD options and was wondering which international school would be the best option for my MD? Which international school  has good research opportunities?  I'd like to pursue research in the area of respiratory medicine / internal medicine.

Thanks everyone!!

If you go international, try to go to the UK. If you go there, you can stay in the UK at the very least, assuming you are open to that idea. You won't be discriminated against in any way by being a Canadian for UK foundation and specialty training as long as you go to the UK for med school. You'll probably have to write the UKCAT or BMAT. 

Other good options are Ireland and Australia, both have good match rates to Canada, but just keep in mind if you want to come back to Canada, you'll may feel like you are treated like a 2nd class citizen. 

 

 

 

[lasko.heater]

On 4/23/2019 at 1:57 PM, JohnGrisham said:

How many MCAT attempts and breakdown? You should retake the MCAT. Much better option than going abroad. If you can't retake and improve, the odds of doing well abroad on the many licensing exams doesn't look good.

Your grades and ecs are obviously good enough for UofC. Sounds like MCAT and interview are holding you back. Seems odd to go abroad if you're at The interview stage at a Canadian school

I attempted the MCAT 3 times, 125, 124, 126, 125 My CARS score is quite low!! I never had the luxury of taking few months off during my graduate degrees to study for the MCAT. My supervisor was not willing to give me any time off. I had to study for my MCAT on top of writing papers, doing experiments, thesis, TAing...etc.

 

 

 

 

[lasko.heater]

On 4/24/2019 at 10:19 AM, ZBL said:

Going to give you some contrasting advice to consider.

My advice is to consider not doing med school at all, in Canada or elsewhere. Fully serious and it has nothing to do with whether you can or can’t get in somewhere. You could probably get in to a Canadian school if you really wanted given you’ve interviewed previously, but I urge you to think very carefully about this. Shadow someone if at all possible, and I mean legitimately shadow them for a week on full service to see what it’s like if you can. 

Even if you’re just reasonably content with research (which it sounds like you are), my opinion is that you have an excellent career trajectory already with the PhD such that I don’t know if the financial sacrifice and sheer pain and suffering over the next 10 years of med school and residency is worth it (for you to decide - but think about it). Ten years of even modest PhD salary goes a long way when the alternative is being 200K in the hole as a late 30s man/woman just starting your career. Doing an MD/PhD helps to offset costs a bit, and some specialty choices can also offset that cost, but it is usually an overall financial disadvantage to do a PhD separately before med school. Plus you can’t buy back your age.

This really comes down to how badly you want to be a doctor. If you see your life no other way, then you have your answer but think carefully. 

Thanks for the advise, but I  have been dreaming of becoming a doctor for the past 11 years of my life. I'm dead set on medicine.  When I started my undergrad, I had no intentions of doing a Phd, but I eventually did it because I was presented with the opportunity to do it. Over the years, I learned to like research, but it is not really my passion.

[blah1234]

22 minutes ago, lasko.heater said:

Thanks for the advise, but I  have been dreaming of becoming a doctor for the past 11 years of my life. I'm dead set on medicine.  When I started my undergrad, I had no intentions of doing a Phd, but I eventually did it because I was presented with the opportunity to do it. Over the years, I learned to like research, but it is not really my passion.

I really want to reiterate the large risk you are taking by going international and the huge price tag you will have to pay. I don't know what your family situation is but this is a financial investment that will likely require collateral from your family. While many people succeed there are also many who fail. It is one thing to be financially insolvent yourself but another thing altogether to bring financial consequences to your loved ones.

I have said in my previous posts that you can't really know if you love medicine until you're deep in the trenches. It was quite different from my expectations and while it remained rewarding for me I think not all my colleagues came through the process the same person. 

Apply across Canada if you want to continue trying for medicine. I would recommend that over any international program. There are other paths to be successful and to contribute outside of medicine. There isn't just one road to happiness. 

[JohnGrisham]

2 hours ago, lasko.heater said:

I attempted the MCAT 3 times, 125, 124, 126, 125 My CARS score is quite low!! I never had the luxury of taking few months off during my graduate degrees to study for the MCAT. My supervisor was not willing to give me any time off. I had to study for my MCAT on top of writing papers, doing experiments, thesis, TAing...etc.

 

 

 

 

Don't make excuses for yourself, you had the choice to study and manage your time as you see fit etc. You dont need a few months off, you can study little by little over longer periods of time. Whats done is done, but if you decide to take it again, take the appropriate steps to get a better score.

[indefatigable]

18 hours ago, lasko.heater said:

I attempted the MCAT 3 times, 125, 124, 126, 125 My CARS score is quite low!! I never had the luxury of taking few months off during my graduate degrees to study for the MCAT. My supervisor was not willing to give me any time off. I had to study for my MCAT on top of writing papers, doing experiments, thesis, TAing...etc.

You're right that having dedicated time to prepare is a big plus for the MCAT.  So why not take that time after you submit your thesis?  Give yourself a real chance to do well.  If you've been waiting 11 years to get into medicine, a couple more months shouldn't make a big difference.  

Unfortunately your previous attempts will often count against you in the US, but not in Canada.  So it's yet another reason to focus all your efforts on applying more broadly within Canada.

If you go international, unless you're able and willing to stay near where you do your training (which may take many more years compared to Canada), your odds of matching back to Canada are at best a coin flip.  Otherwise, IMGs apply to the US - but that would mean going through a similar experience as the MCAT - of having to study on the side for the US MLEs, in a foreign country, for much higher stakes.  You would have to eat/breathe/sleep Step 1 to hope to apply to all over the US for residencies which aren't considered competitive for USMGs.  You would likely have almost no time for research.    Not to mention the serious financial risk incurred not only by yourself, but others on your behalf, and very high cost - which shouldn't be dismissed.