Georgetown (USMD) vs. UBC

[canadianeh95]

Hello there!

After countless rejections, I've been blessed with two acceptances this cycle and I wanted to reach out for your opinion regarding pursuing a US MD from Georgetown University vs a Canadian MD from UBC. I've read the previous US vs Canadian MD threads, which were very informative. But those discussions were quite broad, considering many factors.

Currently, my main goal is keeping as many specialties open as possible. Because I have only seen about 2 specialties (FM and neuro) for an extended time, I do not know what I will ultimately end up choosing after I've had greater exposure to medicine. So, I want to pursue the option that will give me the best chance of matching into a competitive specialty if it ends up being what I want.

To start, I know that in the US you need to tolerate a lot of stress and show high performance on the USMLE as compared to other capable US MDs. At the same time, though, one benefit seems to me that as long as you get 240+ (although number changes based on specialty), one will be able to have some relief the match will very likely be successful in almost any specialty. I do realize that getting a 240 is easier said than done.

In Canada, although there is no USMLE to worry about for 2 years, the CaRMS system seems extremely subjective at the end of the day. It seems to be more dependent on connections (i.e. elective performance, LORs) and the interview and therefore less reliable. In addition, there seems to be proportionately less spots for specialties in Canada. Of course, there's no need to give up on a specialty because some exam score is too low, so that is good at least.

One more thing: I have heard from my US MD friend (who got this info from forums and his personal experience) that US residency directors strongly prefer AMG over CMG, but that Canadian residency directors do not show a strong preference for CMG compared to AMG (USMD). I do not know how to verify this information, but it could be critical in my decision. If this is true, this is a strong push for USMD; it would essentially tell me that US MD --> Canadian Residency is more viable than Canadian MD --> US residency.

What do you think would be the better choice (Georgetown vs. UBC)? If you have any good sources of information, I would love to read them as well.

Thank you for reading, and I would greatly appreciate your response.

[xiphoid]

1 hour ago, canadianeh95 said:

One more thing: I have heard from my US MD friend (who got this info from forums and his personal experience) that US residency directors strongly prefer AMG over CMG, but that Canadian residency directors do not show a strong preference for CMG compared to AMG (USMD). I do not know how to verify this information, but it could be critical in my decision. If this is true, this is a strong push for USMD; it would essentially tell me that US MD --> Canadian Residency is more viable than Canadian MD --> US residency.

Not sure if this can really be assessed one way or the other because there aren't many students who fall into this category. Few CMGs apply to US residencies and when you break it down by specialty and location, I can't imagine any individual US residency program getting more than max 1-2 CMG applicants each year (if any). Similarly, few USMDs apply for CaRMS. There may be the occasional program director telling people around him/her that they prefer USMDs over CMGs, but it would all be anecdotal. You can't look at statistics for this because the Canadian match happens before the US match (except for ophthalmology and urology), so CMGs matching to the US either applied exclusively to the US (extremely, extremely rare and is generally because the applicant has family/significant connections to the US or is a dual US/Canadian citizen who would prefer to live and work in the US in the future) or applied to both Canada and the US but failed to match in the first iteration of the Canadian match (i.e. applying to US residencies as a backup). Either way, these applicants are not representative of the average CMG. US programs don't seem to place as much emphasis on you doing elective rotations/sub-I's at their program to be a competitive applicant, whereas for many Canadian programs especially specialties, you have a much lower chance of matching to a program you haven't done an elective at. Ultimately, I think it comes down to if you see yourself working in Canada or the US in the future. I'd go to medical school in the country you hope to work in long-term, but also keeping in mind that if you're not a US citizen, politics could change your eligibility for US residencies at the drop of a hat. Until this year, Canadian citizens could only pursue residencies in the US in specialties designated as in demand by Health Canada, regardless of where you went to medical school. Some specialties were not on that list so even if you matched to Harvard Neurosurgery for example, you were not allowed to go (the specialties list only came out after match day every year). This requirement has been removed recently, but keep in mind that it could be re-implemented in the future.

[HisLovePerfects]

This person was in a similar situation as you (accepted into a US MD school and UBC) several years ago and recently came back to give his update:

Obviously it is just one person's opinion but you may find it helpful!

[Edict]

On 5/23/2019 at 8:06 PM, canadianeh95 said:

Hello there!

After countless rejections, I've been blessed with two acceptances this cycle and I wanted to reach out for your opinion regarding pursuing a US MD from Georgetown University vs a Canadian MD from UBC. I've read the previous US vs Canadian MD threads, which were very informative. But those discussions were quite broad, considering many factors.

Currently, my main goal is keeping as many specialties open as possible. Because I have only seen about 2 specialties (FM and neuro) for an extended time, I do not know what I will ultimately end up choosing after I've had greater exposure to medicine. So, I want to pursue the option that will give me the best chance of matching into a competitive specialty if it ends up being what I want.

To start, I know that in the US you need to tolerate a lot of stress and show high performance on the USMLE as compared to other capable US MDs. At the same time, though, one benefit seems to me that as long as you get 240+ (although number changes based on specialty), one will be able to have some relief the match will very likely be successful in almost any specialty. I do realize that getting a 240 is easier said than done.

In Canada, although there is no USMLE to worry about for 2 years, the CaRMS system seems extremely subjective at the end of the day. It seems to be more dependent on connections (i.e. elective performance, LORs) and the interview and therefore less reliable. In addition, there seems to be proportionately less spots for specialties in Canada. Of course, there's no need to give up on a specialty because some exam score is too low, so that is good at least.

One more thing: I have heard from my US MD friend (who got this info from forums and his personal experience) that US residency directors strongly prefer AMG over CMG, but that Canadian residency directors do not show a strong preference for CMG compared to AMG (USMD). I do not know how to verify this information, but it could be critical in my decision. If this is true, this is a strong push for USMD; it would essentially tell me that US MD --> Canadian Residency is more viable than Canadian MD --> US residency.

What do you think would be the better choice (Georgetown vs. UBC)? If you have any good sources of information, I would love to read them as well.

Thank you for reading, and I would greatly appreciate your response.

Not sure about US residency program director opinions,  but I believe that you won't be disadvantaged much coming from a US MD school assuming it is a reputable one like Georgetown (assuming you have Canadian electives with good references of course). It's easier probably to apply back to residency in Canada from the US because you can just do one or two electives and you can rank only the Canadian schools you  truly want to go to and use the US as your "backup" because the Canadian match happens first. The other way around is a huge hassle, as it essentially forces you to choose US or Canada. (its hard to explain but the match system is well explained elsewhere on the forum). 

I believe very few people end up making the move. Very few Canadians go to US for residency, less than 1% of grads. Most Canadians who go to the US don't come back for residency (anecdotally). For various reasons of course. You'll find that unless you have something like a S.O. in the other country, its not worth the hassle of applying and splitting your elective time in a different country. 

Generally as someone who is interested in the US, I still think its not an easy decision. UBC is a great school in a world class city. Georgetown is great too, but its medical school isn't what leads, its strength is mostly in gov and law. I think it'll come down on where you think you'd like to be ultimately. If you think ur more likely to want to end up in the US, Georgetown for sure. If Canada, then UBC for sure. If you are unsure, its a really tough decision. 

 

[canadianeh95]

On 5/23/2019 at 10:15 PM, xiphoid said:

Not sure if this can really be assessed one way or the other because there aren't many students who fall into this category. Few CMGs apply to US residencies and when you break it down by specialty and location, I can't imagine any individual US residency program getting more than max 1-2 CMG applicants each year (if any). Similarly, few USMDs apply for CaRMS. There may be the occasional program director telling people around him/her that they prefer USMDs over CMGs, but it would all be anecdotal. You can't look at statistics for this because the Canadian match happens before the US match (except for ophthalmology and urology), so CMGs matching to the US either applied exclusively to the US (extremely, extremely rare and is generally because the applicant has family/significant connections to the US or is a dual US/Canadian citizen who would prefer to live and work in the US in the future) or applied to both Canada and the US but failed to match in the first iteration of the Canadian match (i.e. applying to US residencies as a backup). Either way, these applicants are not representative of the average CMG. 

First of all, thanks for your response and being active on the forum! I've read a fair number of your posts while lurking the forums as a premed. And as for what you've said above - this is basically what I've read from existing threads so far. Data regarding both Canadian MD -> US residency and US MD --> CaRMS seems lacking in number and seems unrepresentative of the average CMG/AMG's real chances. As for the anecdotal hearsay - I just wanted to see if other people heard about this too. After messaging several people on the forum directly, no one supported this either.

As for your comment regarding the importance of electives for Canadian programs though - this could be managed since one can go to USMD and still set up electives in Canada. The cost and time will be a difficulty, but beyond that, there doesn't seem to be other disadvantages.

I did NOT know about the Health Canada situation - thank you for bringing it up. For forum lurkers, you can find more info here - https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-care-system/health-human-resources/statements-need-postgraduate-medical-training-united-states.html. But it makes little sense to me that why one would need the Canadian government's permission (statement of need) to pursue a US residency if the US is providing the training. Maybe the government is worried many Canadians will train abroad then come back to Canada, potentially oversaturating the job market for physicians? Even then, a US MD/DO can come back to Canada just fine after completing US residency so that doesn't make sense either.

In any case, like you, everyone I talked to reinforced the same main message - choose where you ultimately want to practice. At the end of the day, it's clear that US MD will compromise CaRMS (having to focus on USMLE instead of research/making the right connections/harder to go back and forth for electives in Canada) and Canadian MD will compromise US Match (curriculum not USMLE based, again harder to go back and forth for electives and connections). I wanted to find out which is the "optimal option" for both Canadian and US Match but I guess the data isn't there to get a solid answer.

Thanks so much for your response, Xiphoid.

[canadianeh95]

47 minutes ago, HisLovePerfects said:

This person was in a similar situation as you (accepted into a US MD school and UBC) several years ago and recently came back to give his update:

Obviously it is just one person's opinion but you may find it helpful!

Thank you for informing me of this thread, HisLovePerfects. I've actually read it before I made this topic, because AS9Wave had a great discussion of many points including lifestyle, finances and Visa, but I wanted to keep this focused on the chances of matching into a competitive specialty.

I actually messaged this person directly, and they were very helpful. For future readers, I will share their perspective: as subjective CaRMS may seem, a lot is within one's control - the ones who end up making it to competitive specialties worked very hard on electives/research/extracurriculars, and they were clearly impressive during rotations. However, there were people who were not as strong in people skills which led to disappointing results for them, despite excellent qualifications otherwise. So Canada is a better choice for a person who has a balance of academic and soft skills (and I know this is true for US as well of course, but the academics are more heavily weighted due to the importance of the USMLE).

[canadianeh95]

16 minutes ago, Edict said:

Not sure about US residency program director opinions,  but I believe that you won't be disadvantaged much coming from a US MD school assuming it is a reputable one like Georgetown (assuming you have Canadian electives with good references of course). 

I believe very few people end up making the move. Very few Canadians go to US for residency, less than 1% of grads. Most Canadians who go to the US don't come back for residency. You'll find that unless you have something like a S.O. in the other country, its not worth the hassle of applying and splitting your elective time in a different country. 

 

Thank you for the comment Edict! I've read several of your posts as a premed, and also recently while making this decision.

I was focused on whether theoretically is the better option, but practically speaking I feel you would be right - it would be a hassle. Good to know your opinion on the potential US MD --> Canadian residency disadvantage (at least for Georgetown) too.

[indefatigable]

I replied to your DM yesterday!  Good luck with your decision.  

[HisLovePerfects]

On 5/25/2019 at 12:23 AM, canadianeh95 said:

Thank you for informing me of this thread, HisLovePerfects. I've actually read it before I made this topic, because AS9Wave had a great discussion of many points including lifestyle, finances and Visa, but I wanted to keep this focused on the chances of matching into a competitive specialty.

Not sure if you are aware, but I've found another user, but one who chose a USMD acceptance (CRWU) over a Canadian school (Calgary) according to their signature: http://forums.premed101.com/profile/29142-bearpuppy/

[JohnGrisham]

More or less, if you want to practice in Canada go to school in canada.  It lines up the residency process in canada which makes getting work as a staff easier. If you want to work and live in the US longterm, then go to the US. Knowing that you can still end up working in the US after Canadian residency and US fellowship for example.

[canadianeh95]

On 5/25/2019 at 7:59 AM, tere said:

I replied to your DM yesterday!  Good luck with your decision.  

Thank you for your quick response Tere! It is great to have your perspective.

[canadianeh95]

35 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

More or less, if you want to practice in Canada go to school in canada.  It lines up the residency process in canada which makes getting work as a staff easier. If you want to work and live in the US longterm, then go to the US. Knowing that you can still end up working in the US after Canadian residency and US fellowship for example.

Thank you JohnGrisham! I PM'd you, but no need to respond since you shared your perspective.

[canadianeh95]

4 hours ago, HisLovePerfects said:

Not sure if you are aware, but I've found another user, but one who chose a USMD acceptance (CRWU) over a Canadian school (Calgary) according to their signature: http://forums.premed101.com/profile/29142-bearpuppy/

Haha, I recall asking for their opinion when I was applying to US schools! Didn't know they got into Canada as well. Thanks for letting me know.