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this is the most cringe story/advice I have ever heard. OP please ignore this

Guys, the horse is long dead. Sommmee people in this thread likely need more help with women than OP does.  OP, all the best. Clooooosed. Thanks for playin'.

Can't believe this thread is still going.

2 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

 

Agreed...not sure what this person is going on about writing pages and pages of info. If you're a dude that is not good looking, you aren't gonna get an attractive girl, simple. done. Not everyone can get someone attractive, you get what you can give (looks wise). done.  Within 2 seconds a girl can look at you and deem you attractive/unattractive. 

haha. I'd disagree, have gotten partners well above my class in looks, because i apparently otherwise have an agreeable personality and character in social settings. 

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8 hours ago, medigeek said:

Well realistically that contradicts the vast majority of society. Sure like 5% deviate, and stand out - but they're the exception. People tend to be with others who are objectively on their own level and physical attraction is the core tenet. 

 

8 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

 

Agreed...not sure what this person is going on about writing pages and pages of info. If you're a dude that is not good looking, you aren't gonna get an attractive girl, simple. done. Not everyone can get someone attractive, you get what you can give (looks wise). done.  Within 2 seconds a girl can look at you and deem you attractive/unattractive. 

I think you inherently misunderstand objective and subjective. You're confusing your own subjectivity with objectivity. As soon as someone disagrees with you on how attractive someone is, objectivity falls apart.

I'm writing all of this because I've lived it. I went through years of self-defeating attitudes, habits and thoughts, anxiety, depression, struggles in relationships in all forms (romantic, familial, friends) and a lack of self-love and self-confidence.

I'm by no means saying that if you begin pursuing self-development you're going to start dating supermodels. No. But you're going to remove the self-defeating attitudes and beliefs that bar none have removed plenty of opportunity for you, in dating, sex and otherwise. We severely underestimate how we are our own worst enemies.

I'm not a pick-up artist, a red-piller, or any other fucked up philosophy. I'm just a guy who struggled in my relationship with myself and my relationships with others and I decided to do something about it. My physical appearance has not changed greatly in the past few years, but my ability to connect, charm, and develop relationships with people, both platonic and romantic, has improved massively, and that has everything to do with my self-work, not spontaneously becoming better looking. And though I don't like this type of language because I think it's counter-productive, yes, I'd say I've managed to move my 'league' up. I wasn't stuck where I was before. No one ever is. 

Here's a thought. Take my advice for what it is rather than discount or belittle it. You might get something out of the former. The latter just makes you look stubborn at best and petulant at worst. Which are you going to choose? Are you going to complain, or are you going to try?

"Be more physically attractive" is horrible, self-defeating and disrespectful (to both the person receiving it and the person at the other end apparently making the sexual selection) advice. There are very few people who are actually unattractive, and I can wager that if you think of yourself as one, then you are one. But that has more to do with your attitude than your physicality. 

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10 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

 

Agreed...not sure what this person is going on about writing pages and pages of info. If you're a dude that is not good looking, you aren't gonna get an attractive girl, simple. done. Not everyone can get someone attractive, you get what you can give (looks wise). done.  Within 2 seconds a girl can look at you and deem you attractive/unattractive. 

This statement is absolutely true  if you believe it to be true. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will 100% only get women that are in your "league" if that's what you believe you will get. Otherwise, look around man, there is a ton of below-average men out there with way above average looking women, and they are not the exception. 

When it comes to hooking up, like tinder, women will go for more attractive guys. It's proven already by some studies and it's not surprising. 

When it comes to dating, women will evaluate a man's character and physical traits, but character can and will supersede looks in serious dating. It's also proven already by research - not that it needed to be proven, you just need to look around and see for yourself.

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22 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

 

Agreed...not sure what this person is going on about writing pages and pages of info. If you're a dude that is not good looking, you aren't gonna get an attractive girl, simple. done. Not everyone can get someone attractive, you get what you can give (looks wise). done.  Within 2 seconds a girl can look at you and deem you attractive/unattractive. 

You'd think this would be common sense too. Human attraction is the core factor in dating. It's literally the fundamental first step and girls care about it at leastttt as much as guys do (sometimes a lot more).

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6 minutes ago, medigeek said:

You'd think this would be common sense too. Human attraction is the core factor in dating. It's literally the fundamental first step and girls care about it at leastttt as much as guys do (sometimes a lot more).

the sad reality is that a lot of people try and convince themselves otherwise, it's the ultimate coping mechanism. Two guys - Guy A is 6'3" , in shape and good looking. Guy B is 5'8", chubby, average looking who wins? But wait, Guy B has the "correct mindset" lmao just lmao the classic response to this will be "oh only shallow/dumb/non-quality girls would want a long term relationship with Guy A....every girl if given the chance to snag guy A would want guy A no matter the mindset or anything else Guy B has

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20 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

haha. I'd disagree, have gotten partners well above my class in looks, because i apparently otherwise have an agreeable personality and character in social settings. 

That's also your subjective n=1 word vs an observation over a large sample size. 

14 hours ago, lifeadvice said:

 

I think you inherently misunderstand objective and subjective. You're confusing your own subjectivity with objectivity. As soon as someone disagrees with you on how attractive someone is, objectivity falls apart.

I'm writing all of this because I've lived it. I went through years of self-defeating attitudes, habits and thoughts, anxiety, depression, struggles in relationships in all forms (romantic, familial, friends) and a lack of self-love and self-confidence.

I'm by no means saying that if you begin pursuing self-development you're going to start dating supermodels. No. But you're going to remove the self-defeating attitudes and beliefs that bar none have removed plenty of opportunity for you, in dating, sex and otherwise. We severely underestimate how we are our own worst enemies.

I'm not a pick-up artist, a red-piller, or any other fucked up philosophy. I'm just a guy who struggled in my relationship with myself and my relationships with others and I decided to do something about it. My physical appearance has not changed greatly in the past few years, but my ability to connect, charm, and develop relationships with people, both platonic and romantic, has improved massively, and that has everything to do with my self-work, not spontaneously becoming better looking. And though I don't like this type of language because I think it's counter-productive, yes, I'd say I've managed to move my 'league' up. I wasn't stuck where I was before. No one ever is. 

Here's a thought. Take my advice for what it is rather than discount or belittle it. You might get something out of the former. The latter just makes you look stubborn at best and petulant at worst. Which are you going to choose? Are you going to complain, or are you going to try?

"Be more physically attractive" is horrible, self-defeating and disrespectful (to both the person receiving it and the person at the other end apparently making the sexual selection) advice. There are very few people who are actually unattractive, and I can wager that if you think of yourself as one, then you are one. But that has more to do with your attitude than your physicality. 

Attitude matters but you have to be delusional to think a genuinely attractive girl will go for plain average joe. 

12 hours ago, RiderSx said:

This statement is absolutely true  if you believe it to be true. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will 100% only get women that are in your "league" if that's what you believe you will get. Otherwise, look around man, there is a ton of below-average men out there with way above average looking women, and they are not the exception. 

When it comes to hooking up, like tinder, women will go for more attractive guys. It's proven already by some studies and it's not surprising. 

When it comes to dating, women will evaluate a man's character and physical traits, but character can and will supersede looks in serious dating. It's also proven already by research - not that it needed to be proven, you just need to look around and see for yourself.

No there are not. It's very hard for someone who is actually below average to have any real success with dating. Most guys are average and occasionally do well with above avg girls. It's like a 5/10 with a 6. And that's exactly what you are referencing. 

You'll very rarely see someone in the top 5-10% go for someone who is completely average. If it does happen it's due to underlying issues (ex. major insecurity).

Your typical attractive girl has loads of DMs/inboxes +/- 100s of nonstop tinder matches etc. to choose from and therefore has no reason to settle for someone well below her. Again, common sense. 

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1 minute ago, medigeek said:

That's also your subjective n=1 word vs an observation over a large sample size. 

Attitude matters but you have to be delusional to think a genuinely attractive girl will go for plain average joe. 

No there are not. It's very hard for someone who is actually below average to have any real success with dating. Most guys are average and occasionally do well with above avg girls. It's like a 5/10 with a 6. And that's exactly what you are referencing. 

You'll very rarely see someone in the top 5-10% go for someone who is completely average. If it does happen it's due to underlying issues (ex. major insecurity).

Your typical attractive girl has loads of DMs/inboxes +/- 100s of nonstop tinder matches etc. to choose from and therefore has no reason to settle for someone well below her. Again, common sense. 

so true, it's sad the delusion that people have to think that "there are so many attractive girls with average/below average guys" lmao 

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5 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

the sad reality is that a lot of people try and convince themselves otherwise, it's the ultimate coping mechanism. Two guys - Guy A is 6'3" , in shape and good looking. Guy B is 5'8", chubby, average looking who wins? But wait, Guy B has the "correct mindset" lmao just lmao the classic response to this will be "oh only shallow/dumb/non-quality girls would want a long term relationship with Guy A....every girl if given the chance to snag guy A would want guy A no matter the mindset or anything else Guy B has

It's a sensitive topic because guys want to think they have full control over it rather than being realistic. Then they waste time rather than going for someone who would actually be interested. 

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Just now, YesIcan55 said:

so true, it's sad the delusion that people have to think that "there are so many attractive girls with average/below average guys" lmao 

Virtually nonexistent. I've traveled all over. Regular club goer in the past. Parties etc. Various social scenes. Hell, even scrolling through social media. It just doesn't happen and the rare times it has, the girl had major psych and/or insecurity issues (which is always ignored!).

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9 minutes ago, medigeek said:

Virtually nonexistent. I've traveled all over. Regular club goer in the past. Parties etc. Various social scenes. Hell, even scrolling through social media. It just doesn't happen and the rare times it has, the girl had major psych and/or insecurity issues (which is always ignored!).

Guys not in the top 10% of physical attractiveness (good face AND above 6') will do the craziest mental gymnastics to convince themselves they can get an attractive girl. It's life, I swear dudes would be happier once they accept the fact they can't/won't get an attractive girl if they are not in the top 10% of physical attractiveness themselves. It's sad because guys are very visual and thus will dream of finding the attractive girl of their dreams but one day reality hits and they use the same mental gymnastics that the 4-5/10 they finally found is equivalent to the 8+/10 they dreamed about for years lmao 

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3 hours ago, YesIcan55 said:

Guys not in the top 10% of physical attractiveness (good face AND above 6') will do the craziest mental gymnastics to convince themselves they can get an attractive girl. It's life, I swear dudes would be happier once they accept the fact they can't/won't get an attractive girl if they are not in the top 10% of physical attractiveness themselves. It's sad because guys are very visual and thus will dream of finding the attractive girl of their dreams but one day reality hits and they use the same mental gymnastics that the 4-5/10 they finally found is equivalent to the 8+/10 they dreamed about for years lmao 

You guys are just arguing in circles now, you should stop. You’ve both made your point.

I think for a lot of women, social status and personality traits are more important than physical attractiveness when it comes to finding a partner. For casual hookups, physical attractiveness is the only thing that matters. The research is clear on this, unless something new has been found since the 3 years I took group dynamics psych in school.

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6 minutes ago, ysera said:

You guys are just arguing in circles now, you should stop. You’ve both made your point.

I think for a lot of women, social status and personality traits are more important than physical attractiveness when it comes to finding a partner. For casual hookups, physical attractiveness is the only thing that matters. The research is clear on this, unless something new has been found since the 3 years I took group dynamics psych in school.

lmao you think women value personality more than physical attributes for finding a partner? sure, if the woman is unattractive she will settle for the "nice guy" in the 90% while dreaming/wanting a dude in the top 10% of physical attractiveness. Social status may be a factor, sure. But even then, how does it feel knowing your partner is with you for your money/career than for you? She would never be inherently sexually attracted to your appearance but for your status, lol.  Again, the things that dudes will tell themselves is honestly astonishing. 

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8 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

lmao you think women value personality more than physical attributes for finding a partner? sure, if the woman is unattractive she will settle for the "nice guy" in the 90% while dreaming/wanting a dude in the top 10% of physical attractiveness. Social status may be a factor, sure. But even then, how does it feel knowing your partner is with you for your money/career than for you? She would never be inherently sexually attracted to your appearance but for your status, lol.  Again, the things that dudes will tell themselves is honestly astonishing. 

I wasnt making a value judgement, just saying what ive read. And being with someone based on their physical attractiveness alone is just as shallow as being with them based on social status alone, moreso actually because a large part of being physically attractive is being lucky with your genetic makeup.

 

in real life things are more multidimensional, and as I said for finding a long term partner, other factors supersede physical attractiveness in importance. 

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30 minutes ago, ysera said:

I wasnt making a value judgement, just saying what ive read. And being with someone based on their physical attractiveness alone is just as shallow as being with then based on social status alone, moreso actually because a large part of being physically attractive is being lucky with your genetic makeup.

 

in real life things are more multidimensional, and as I said for finding a long term partner, other factors supersede physical attractiveness in importance. 

no one was talking about what is and isn't shallow. This is also not about what it is fair. In fact, as you correctly mentioned attractiveness is about genetics. It was a discussion on what is valued more. What are you preaching is what society tells boys growing up "be a good guy! have a great personality, girls will swarm you." Sadly, some guys, like you apparently, believe that. So do you really think a 6'3, fit, good-looking guy will have even the same universe of options for long term partners than a 5'8", non-fit, average looking guy? Personality does not come into question until you reach a certain cutoff. If we have two tall, good looking dudes, sure personality will be the tie-breaker. But what a lot of dudes don't understand, won't try to understand, and will delude themselves is what the actual cutoff is. Multiple studies have shown that women rate 80% of guys as unattractive. That cutoff is set...if you aren't in the top 20% don't delude yourself and get your hopes up of an attractive girl unless you have high status as you say and attract her that way. Seriously, people who give you false-hope are only preparing you for failure. 

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1 hour ago, YesIcan55 said:

no one was talking about what is and isn't shallow. This is also not about what it is fair. In fact, as you correctly mentioned attractiveness is about genetics. It was a discussion on what is valued more. What are you preaching is what society tells boys growing up "be a good guy! have a great personality, girls will swarm you." Sadly, some guys, like you apparently, believe that. So do you really think a 6'3, fit, good-looking guy will have even the same universe of options for long term partners than a 5'8", non-fit, average looking guy? Personality does not come into question until you reach a certain cutoff. If we have two tall, good looking dudes, sure personality will be the tie-breaker. But what a lot of dudes don't understand, won't try to understand, and will delude themselves is what the actual cutoff is. Multiple studies have shown that women rate 80% of guys as unattractive. That cutoff is set...if you aren't in the top 20% don't delude yourself and get your hopes up of an attractive girl unless you have high status as you say and attract her that way. Seriously, people who give you false-hope are only preparing you for failure. 

What you're describing is the case for casual dating and hookups, things like tinder and bumble. When it comes to long term relationships, this simply is not the case. Social status and personality matching are far far more important. 

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4 hours ago, ysera said:

What you're describing is the case for casual dating and hookups, things like tinder and bumble. When it comes to long term relationships, this simply is not the case. Social status and personality matching are far far more important. 

I won't be commenting further to you. I'll let you live with this personality delusion. But I will leave with something to think about. In my culture, divorce is taboo and some traditional people go about things precisely as you say. They marry for personality and social status. There are many websites/threads of both men and women talking about their unhappiness in marriages because they do not find their partner physically attractive and how they can't even get intimate with them because of this. This leads many of them to be unhappy/some to want to cheat/many even go through with divorce. A healthy marriage needs both physical attraction and commonalities. The physical attraction is something you have or you don't to someone and the threshold is much much higher than you delude yourself to be.  An average looking person should be with an average looking person, below average with below average, etc. then everyone would be happier. Peace. 

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59 minutes ago, PhD2MD said:

Can't believe this thread is still going.

You know, neither can I. 

I'm trying to help OP. I saw an issue of confidence and self-esteem, self-assuredness, identity and purpose. I have no idea what he looks like, and that doesn't particularly matter. As far as these two guys are concerned, he could be that 'top 5%' they are so feverishly putting on a pedestal (misguidedly, of course). 

I don't want to derail it further by continuing to obsess over this weird toxic hang-up about 'average joes being with top 5% women' or whatever the hell they're talking about. I meant to say that mindset and confidence has a lot to do with where you actually are in a social hierachy. I'm not saying physical attractiveness doesn't matter, it certainly does, but you could be incredibly physically attractive, and without a solid foundation underneath, it doesn't matter at all. 

Schulich2019, don't put physical attractiveness on a pedestal. You should always work on your own appearance, work out, groom, lose or gain weight as you need, evolve and adapt yourself to highlight your best physical attributes. But putting it all on a pedestal just gets in your head, makes you think people turn you down because of your looks (when you have no fucking idea if this is true or not), or makes you think that people only care for you for A, B, C, D, E. My assumption is that you and the two guys ranting on about attractive women are in your 20s. Values change over time. I would fuck anything that moved in my 20s. At this point my bar has been continually raised (both in physical attractiveness and personality but moreso for personality); I'm pickier as time goes on, and I went through a pattern of a series of fuckbuddies/friends with benefits who wouldn't last not because the sex wasn't good or we weren't attracted to each other physically, but because there was no personality meshing, no ability to connect beyond sex. That shit doesn't last, and at a certain point it becomes empty and exhausting, for both sexes, but even faster for women. To think that people keep putting physical attractiveness on the highest pedestal as the years go on is misguided.

Being overly obsessed with the social hierarchy of highly attractive women not selecting 'average' men just reeks of insecurity. There is no need to complain, or alter our behaviour. I think the core truth is that if someone is attracted to you, take it for what it is. If someone isn't attracted to you, same thing. Don't assume it has anything to do with anything. People make decisions for themselves, not for you. People have their own quirks, preferences, kinks, fetishes, likes and dislikes. You never thought dadbods would be a thing, or preferring shorter men, or preferring submissive men, or anything else that's a little off kilter from some imaginary indoctrinated/stalwart idea of attractiveness. It doesn't really particularly matter why someone rejects you.

I apologize for making a philosophical statement on 'leagues.' It's just been my own experience having been able to improve myself as well as the quality of partners I've had, both casually and non-casually. I didn't mean to stir this deep-seated, toxic resentment that some people seem to have.

I appreciate all the PMs, guys. Keep them coming.

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8 hours ago, ysera said:

You guys are just arguing in circles now, you should stop. You’ve both made your point.

I think for a lot of women, social status and personality traits are more important than physical attractiveness when it comes to finding a partner. For casual hookups, physical attractiveness is the only thing that matters. The research is clear on this, unless something new has been found since the 3 years I took group dynamics psych in school.

The research actually disagrees with you.

https://www.livescience.com/58607-mens-looks-may-matter-more-than-personality.html

 

Plenty of studies have been consistent on this. You can say personality is maybe equally as important once you meet a certain cut off in the girl's eyes. 

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8 minutes ago, medigeek said:

The research actually disagrees with you.

https://www.livescience.com/58607-mens-looks-may-matter-more-than-personality.html

 

Plenty of studies have been consistent on this. You can say personality is maybe equally as important once you meet a certain cut off in the girl's eyes. 

And that cutoff is certainly not 'average looks'. It's being at least better looking than 80% of other guys if you want an attractive girl. 

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18 minutes ago, Pakoon said:

Why are you all talking about cutoffs like it's a MCAT at Western

because its the perfect analogy. It is just as a medical school would not look at you if you fall below MCAT/GPA cutoffs (physical attractiveness) no matter how great other parts of your application are (personality). Further, that 'cutoff' is a lot higher than guys like to delude themselves in believing, to have hope. 

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51 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

because its the perfect analogy. It is just as a medical school would not look at you if you fall below MCAT/GPA cutoffs (physical attractiveness) no matter how great other parts of your application are (personality). Further, that 'cutoff' is a lot higher than guys like to delude themselves in believing, to have hope. 

What if you’re swomen lol

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