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Rumours about cut-offs


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8 hours ago, Ontariomedschools said:

Some rumours have been going around that people who didn't meet Western's cutoffs last year got interview invites based on their ABS sketch responses. Any thoughts on this?

No one from last year's invite/regret thread got an interview with stats that didn't meet the cut-offs. It's safe to assume that the cut-offs are firm. 

The only ones who can get interviewed with stats below the cut-offs are indigenous applicants. 

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25 minutes ago, RiderSx said:

No one from last year's invite/regret thread got an interview with stats that didn't meet the cut-offs. It's safe to assume that the cut-offs are firm. 

The only ones who can get interviewed with stats below the cut-offs are indigenous applicants. 

and they aren't even getting it below cut offs - they have have a different set of criteria that they are meeting (just like SWOMEN and NON-SWOMEN have different criteria). 

I will say that these sorts of rumours always seem to fly around - seen it many times - still Western has a firm policy on this, and have followed that policy an extremely long time. They may be adding more aspects to their grading system but I don't think there is any real indication that there is flexibility now in the cut offs. 

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15 hours ago, Ontariomedschools said:

Some rumours have been going around that people who didn't meet Western's cutoffs last year got interview invites based on their ABS sketch responses. Any thoughts on this?

No, it didn't happen. many people above cutoffs didn't receive invites , they didn't bend the rules for these people. cut offs are firm.

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56 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

If this post is inspired in any way by that guy who made a long post on another thread about knowing someone who got into Western when they didn't meet cutoffs because their family doctor worked in Western lol that is total BS. Cutoffs are firm. Everything about that post was a lie. The guy who made the post tried to give himself credibility by saying that he just got in to Harvard medical school early decision....when Harvard med does not even do early decision.. 

Oh no, I don't know anything about that story. I agree with you about the cut-offs being firm. Just thought I'd bring this up in case anyone had any thoughts because this is something I heard. 

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One thing I love about Western is how transparent and firm they are about their cutoffs. I doubt that anyone would ever get in below the cutoffs. Perhaps that individual is SWOMEN, which they have their own separate cutoffs that are lower than the NON-SWOMEN applicants, but they still have to meet the SWOMEN cutoffs. 

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1 hour ago, ABCD13 said:

One thing I love about Western is how transparent and firm they are about their cutoffs. I doubt that anyone would ever get in below the cutoffs. Perhaps that individual is SWOMEN, which they have their own separate cutoffs that are lower than the NON-SWOMEN applicants, but they still have to meet the SWOMEN cutoffs. 

There's also the ACCESS pathway now for the MCAT

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1 hour ago, conbrio said:

There's also the ACCESS pathway now for the MCAT

true! so they are becoming more flexible in someways, which I guess also makings things less clear cut to a degree. Still I support the initiative - having a diverse group of medical students is important. Western has actually done quite a lot of studies on this - the parental income of med students is actually kind of shockingly outside of the norm on average (even at a school that values until recently only GPA/MCAT as key interview criteria. You can imagine it may be even worse at other schools etc. 

 

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8 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

the parental income of med students is actually kind of shockingly outside of the norm on average (even at a school that values until recently only GPA/MCAT as key interview criteria. You can imagine it may be even worse at other schools etc. 

Lol tell me about it. Definitely was shocking to witness when I got in, compared to people I grew up with. Vastly different people.

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43 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

true! so they are becoming more flexible in someways, which I guess also makings things less clear cut to a degree. Still I support the initiative - having a diverse group of medical students is important. Western has actually done quite a lot of studies on this - the parental income of med students is actually kind of shockingly outside of the norm on average (even at a school that values until recently only GPA/MCAT as key interview criteria. You can imagine it may be even worse at other schools etc. 

 

So I googled this and apparently 60% of med students come from families making over $100K a year (AFMC, 2015).. wow I mean I thought sure, the process is easier for more affluent people, but that percentage is just wild.

I'm really interested to see what the demographics are like per school, and how different they are based on their admission policies. I'm only thinking of Ontario schools here, but I'm going to place a wild guess that there might be a difference between UofT/Queen's/Ottawa versus Western/McMaster. Not including NOSM because that's too easy.

I think Western's ACCESS pathway is actually one of the clearer policies! They have a strict list of requirements, though one could argue that it's too restrictive. Then you have the same MCAT cutoffs/flexibility as SWOMEN applicants, which is pretty well known. So you'll know if you qualify or not, and that it directly translates to a different cutoff.

Ottawa's on the other hand...

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16 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

100K is a low benchmark. MANY medical students have at least one parent who is a doctor. So that 100K could be 200K+ and the majority of that 60% will still meet that benchmark. It's common sense that those who grew up disadvantaged/poor know what it means to live in less than ideal circumstances and thus can relate and empathize with patients more. It really gets on my buttons knowing that many medical students grew up going to fancy private schools, driving luxurious cars, wearing name brand etc and WILL NEVER know it feels to be in those situations. You can't teach experiences or empathy. I don't need to get into how this process from start (High School to getting a competitive residency spot and everything in between) greatly favours those who come from high SES/doctor families. Life is just unfair. Accepting that has made me feel less bitter about this process (a person who grew up below the poverty line, and has tried everything possible to increase chances of admission but has applied to medicine 4 times already with no avail). 

I think this healthydebate article (where I got that 100K stat from) speaks to what you're saying: https://healthydebate.ca/2019/06/topic/low-ses-medical-students

Especially the bit about the leaky pipeline.

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11 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

100K is a low benchmark. MANY medical students have at least one parent who is a doctor. So that 100K could be 200K+ and the majority of that 60% will still meet that benchmark. It's common sense that those who grew up disadvantaged/poor know what it means to live in less than ideal circumstances and thus can relate and empathize with patients more. It really gets on my buttons knowing that many medical students grew up going to fancy private schools, driving luxurious cars, wearing name brand etc and WILL NEVER know it feels to be in those situations. You can't teach experiences or empathy. I don't need to get into how this process from start (High School to getting a competitive residency spot and everything in between) greatly favours those who come from high SES/doctor families. Life is just unfair. Accepting that has made me feel less bitter about this process (a person who grew up below the poverty line, and has tried everything possible to increase chances of admission but has applied to medicine 4 times already with no avail). 

I think that it is a bit of a stretch of the imagination to assume that having a parent who makes 100k a year (or even 300k a year) is buying their children luxurious cars and sending them to private school. Maybe in the US, but this is Canada. So, I don't think you can make a broad stroke in that regard as you try to support your argument that people from a higher SES have a lower capacity for empathy. I like to think that in Canada, we do a fairly good job at interacting with people unlike ourselves, compared to other nations, anyways. And I agree, you cannot teach empathy, but you can learn it through experiences. And no, having lived the same experience as a patient is not the only way to have empathy for them... thats the entire point of empathy--feeling compassion for someone different from yourself. That being said, appreciating the struggles of the Other becomes easier when you see yourself reflected in them. But again, not the only way. 

Also, the way you are framing this complaint seems almost like you are assuming that adcomms have a favourability bias towards rich applicants. Although this is true in the sense that interviewers will be more likely to have positive feelings about an applicant more similar to them (assuming the interviewers are, themselves, of a high SES), I think that it is more so a problem with academia. Some of the big reasons academia is elitist are: applicants with financial support have less stress and are able to do better; higher SES status is attached to post-secondary education, which creates a system of parents with university education sending their children to university and also giving them the tools to succeed. And, although medicine becomes a clinical practice, medicine is ultimately a highly academic system. I just think that people sometimes attack the instances of high SES in matriculated applicants as if it is some sort of conspiracy, and I think doing so misses the point that it is more so a systemic issue. Like, it's not a bunch of good old boy doctors liking applicants who come into the interview room wearing a rolex. Rather, I think it is more akin to the idea that if your parents own a drywalling company, you are going to have a much easier time succeeding as a dry-waller. Moving into different careers may entail moving into different SES realms, none of which is easy because they all involve their own implicit skills and educations. 

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20 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

you think it is a "stretch of the imagination" that a parent making 300K can't buy their kids luxurious cars and send them to private school? Literally read that sentence again to see how silly that sounds. There are so many other advantages to being high SES in the application process (I don't have time to list them) but here is a big one that is not often considered....many low SES applicants like myself grew up in the streets, our parents speak little English. We never developed the small talk, the mannerisms etc that a high SES applicant is exposed to each day at home at the dinner table/with their parents and in their surroundings (other high SES family/friends) growing up. This is something that is not discussed often, but it makes a huge difference in interviews to have that higher sense of vocab, general mannerisms, etc Dr. Ian Walker has published a study that says even in the MMI low SES applicants significantly perform worse than high SES applicants. So even if one can overcome the challenges of writing the MCAT, getting a high GPA, ECs etc they are disadvantaged in the MMI itself... 

You are preaching to the choir, I agree with you about the mannerisms, small talk etc being an enormous advantage. You. Are. Right. But I think this image that you are painting of spoiled brats driving around in sports cars is utter fantasy that you are using to paint all high SES people as immoral gluttons. Sure, we all know and have seen people who are privileged to these luxuries, but it isn't really a thing. You have to be making an enormous amount of money to be doing that shit. Like, more than doctor money. Remember, a salary of 300k is like 170k after taxes. Moreover, its not really a cultural thing. I know plenty of academics in a high SES bracket who probably make $300k a year and I have literally never heard of someone buying their kid a luxury vehicle. 

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1 hour ago, conbrio said:

So I googled this and apparently 60% of med students come from families making over $100K a year (AFMC, 2015).. wow I mean I thought sure, the process is easier for more affluent people, but that percentage is just wild.

I'm really interested to see what the demographics are like per school, and how different they are based on their admission policies. I'm only thinking of Ontario schools here, but I'm going to place a wild guess that there might be a difference between UofT/Queen's/Ottawa versus Western/McMaster. Not including NOSM because that's too easy.

I think Western's ACCESS pathway is actually one of the clearer policies! They have a strict list of requirements, though one could argue that it's too restrictive. Then you have the same MCAT cutoffs/flexibility as SWOMEN applicants, which is pretty well known. So you'll know if you qualify or not, and that it directly translates to a different cutoff.

Ottawa's on the other hand...

oh it is clearer ha, but nothing is as clear as an abrupt cut off in GPA/MCAT

and you know here is something that really confused/surprised me. Western is objectively the most obvious school - cannot use your parents money to pump up the ECs, or use family connections to get LORs, or access to research etc. It is simple and clean. 

so it should be a school where it is less impacted by family wealth you would think. It is literally PURE merit after all with no surprises. 

and yet Western's student body was one of the HIGHEST in terms of socioeconomic class (130K+ if I recall correctly). 

blew me away! exactly opposite of what I thought should be going on - and this brought me to a major point I guess. It seems very likely that having a high income family really helps with GPA and MCAT. Likely the removal of all that financial stress, better supports etc plays a measurable role. Also possible high income parents are smart people, and smart people have smart kids more often with again better supports all along. 

So while I was at Western I went to more than one insanely amazing house to say the least. As someone from a much lower socioeconomic background earlier in life that was always a weird experience ha. 

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1 hour ago, YesIcan55 said:

100K is a low benchmark. MANY medical students have at least one parent who is a doctor. So that 100K could be 200K+ and the majority of that 60% will still meet that benchmark. It's common sense that those who grew up disadvantaged/poor know what it means to live in less than ideal circumstances and thus can relate and empathize with patients more. It really gets on my buttons knowing that many medical students grew up going to fancy private schools, driving luxurious cars, wearing name brand etc and WILL NEVER know it feels to be in those situations. You can't teach experiences or empathy. I don't need to get into how this process from start (High School to getting a competitive residency spot and everything in between) greatly favours those who come from high SES/doctor families. Life is just unfair. Accepting that has made me feel less bitter about this process (a person who grew up below the poverty line, and has tried everything possible to increase chances of admission but has applied to medicine 4 times already with no avail). 

Median was 140K at Western if I recall late 2000s. 

Average I am assuming would be higher

Life often is unfair - but that doesn't mean we cannot do things about it (either for ourselves or the system ha). 

and for us that make it to the other side ha, don't forget to help pull a few other people up along the way. 

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4 minutes ago, LiconC said:

Naw, man. 

 

2 minutes ago, YesIcan55 said:

want me to link his instagram here? I don't want to do that publicly, but DM if you want. He does medico legal work for oil companies and makes 800K a year. 

all about priorities in the end - if you love cars and make it a priority......

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1 hour ago, rmorelan said:

Median was 140K at Western if I recall late 2000s. 

Average I am assuming would be higher

Life often is unfair - but that doesn't mean we cannot do things about it (either for ourselves or the system ha). 

and for us that make it to the other side ha, don't forget to help pull a few other people up along the way. 

It's encouraging to hear you speak on this from the other side, as someone also from a low-income background. Thanks for sharing.

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