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How do they determine IP?


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13 minutes ago, Raptors905 said:

It seems there is a large gap between IP and OOP in terms of GPA needed. 
 

how can you be listed as IP if you aren’t born in Quebec - if you do undergrad at McGill will that count?

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/applying/requirements/elements/proof-citizenship-or-residency

The large gap is related to the small numbers of OOP spots at McGill. You can check the requirements at the bottom of the link just click on the plus sign next to Qc Residency. Overall, live in Qc for one year prior to application without FT study is pretty easy.

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5 minutes ago, amt6500 said:

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/applying/requirements/elements/proof-citizenship-or-residency

The large gap is related to the small numbers of OOP spots at McGill. You can check the requirements at the bottom of the link just click on the plus sign next to Qc Residency. Overall, live in Qc for one year prior to application without FT study is pretty easy.

Why don’t more Ontario residents do this then ?

 

Instead of the usual I’ll apply with a GPA if 3.95 and keep getting rejected in Ontario just take a gap year if you don’t get in and goto Montreal for a year and apply. You are pretty much guaranteed to get in as an IP if you can read it seems 

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21 minutes ago, Raptors905 said:

Why don’t more Ontario residents do this then ?

 

Instead of the usual I’ll apply with a GPA if 3.95 and keep getting rejected in Ontario just take a gap year if you don’t get in and goto Montreal for a year and apply. You are pretty much guaranteed to get in as an IP if you can read it seems 


“Guaranteed to get in as an IP if you can read”. The average cgpa for McGill IP is 3.9 btw. That is still higher than the IP averages for schools like McMaster and Western. Just saying. 

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1 hour ago, mcgillmdbd said:


“Guaranteed to get in as an IP if you can read”. The average cgpa for McGill IP is 3.9 btw. That is still higher than the IP averages for schools like McMaster and Western. Just saying. 

It just seems a lot of people on here getting interview with much lower GPA if IP (some as low as under 3.7)

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2 hours ago, Raptors905 said:

It just seems a lot of people on here getting interview with much lower GPA if IP (some as low as under 3.7)

250+ interviews so you will get people on lower side. Also prof title + grad degree boosts GPA. Not to mention CV and Casper account for 30%. Lots of factors beyond just GPA. Also GPA is a bad predictor of med school success and future quality as a physician so ya prob why McGill stands out compared to many other academic standing only programs.

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4 hours ago, Raptors905 said:

Why don’t more Ontario residents do this then ?

 

Instead of the usual I’ll apply with a GPA if 3.95 and keep getting rejected in Ontario just take a gap year if you don’t get in and goto Montreal for a year and apply. You are pretty much guaranteed to get in as an IP if you can read it seems 

Maybe you could try this “guaranteed” route? 

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7 hours ago, amt6500 said:

250+ interviews so you will get people on lower side. Also prof title + grad degree boosts GPA. Not to mention CV and Casper account for 30%. Lots of factors beyond just GPA. Also GPA is a bad predictor of med school success and future quality as a physician so ya prob why McGill stands out compared to many other academic standing only programs.

Is this evidence based or just your opinion? I believe the evidence shows GPA is a very strong predictor 

https://bmcmededuc.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12909-016-0692-3


are you even in med school? What do you know of med school success or being a good physician as a pre med?

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Also just because you get an interview, does not mean you'll get accepted at McGill. The interview/MMI at McGill is a big filter and no one *really* knows what factors they look for, how they balance the demographics of the cohort (even though they say they don't, they always happen to get similar percentages by gender, language, background), and what they are biased against. Some people interview several times and don't get in and some people easily get accepted the first time they interview and it isn't really that predictable beyond a certain point. They have probably 400-500 IP applicants that are good enough on paper to do well at medical school, they interview around half of them, and then accept around 75-80 in the end. 

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7 hours ago, Raptors905 said:

Is this evidence based or just your opinion? I believe the evidence shows GPA is a very strong predictor 

https://bmcmededuc.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12909-016-0692-3


are you even in med school? What do you know of med school success or being a good physician as a pre med?

1. It is an informed opinion. You can obviously find studies that would correlate both GPA and medical school academic success. However, if you look at the conclusion, there are other predictors which are correlated with either early or later portions of the curriculum. What I would recommend you reflect on is what leads to higher GPAs and how consistent that can be. With universities such as McGill that allow additional degrees to improve GPA or require science courses but not MCAT, you can find methods to circumvent GPA to some extent. 

One example would be "easier" degrees as a second UG degree which could lead to stronger grades. At the same time, honour or specialized UG degrees are not necessarily correcting the GPA scores in cases were harder/higher level courses are involved. The examaniation format can also impact these scores if you have assignment/paper based courses vs. examination based courses. One could argue that certain types of learning and studying are less present in a medical school curriculum. 

Certain learning institutions also offer ways to modulate grades through make-up exams and other measures. If education at the UG or even CEGEP level was standardized, I would be much more comfortable with GPA as a sole predictor but that is not the case. Just look at Universities with an letter grade scale that includes A+. Usually an A+ requires a much more significant grade which is not reflected in the McGill letter scale and conversion chart which means some students are considered equal despite having higher grades giving them a lower overall chance for an interview if we only consider grades at McGill. 

Lastly, the evolving requirements in the medical field and the evolving educational models require more skillsets than just memorization or examination skills. With increased focus on different models of service delivery, collaboration with other professionals, communication with patients, etc., GPA might not be a good tool to evaluate such skillsets. This is why certain factors are likely to be included in the screening process especially when you look at the MMI in general. 

2. I am neither a med student or premed student. I am a hopeful candidate. The fact that you need to inquire on that status to define the value of an opinion or argument speaks volumes. Implying that having an opinion on the admission process or the curriculum is limited to Med students or physicians demonstrates limited understanding or critical thought at best. 

I am very open to discuss your thoughts on this topic in a much more inclusive and proper manner if you so wish. 

Have a wonderful day

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1 hour ago, amt6500 said:

1. It is an informed opinion. You can obviously find studies that would correlate both GPA and medical school academic success. However, if you look at the conclusion, there are other predictors which are correlated with either early or later portions of the curriculum. What I would recommend you reflect on is what leads to higher GPAs and how consistent that can be. With universities such as McGill that allow additional degrees to improve GPA or require science courses but not MCAT, you can find methods to circumvent GPA to some extent. 

One example would be "easier" degrees as a second UG degree which could lead to stronger grades. At the same time, honour or specialized UG degrees are not necessarily correcting the GPA scores in cases were harder/higher level courses are involved. The examaniation format can also impact these scores if you have assignment/paper based courses vs. examination based courses. One could argue that certain types of learning and studying are less present in a medical school curriculum. 

Certain learning institutions also offer ways to modulate grades through make-up exams and other measures. If education at the UG or even CEGEP level was standardized, I would be much more comfortable with GPA as a sole predictor but that is not the case. Just look at Universities with an letter grade scale that includes A+. Usually an A+ requires a much more significant grade which is not reflected in the McGill letter scale and conversion chart which means some students are considered equal despite having higher grades giving them a lower overall chance for an interview if we only consider grades at McGill. 

Lastly, the evolving requirements in the medical field and the evolving educational models require more skillsets than just memorization or examination skills. With increased focus on different models of service delivery, collaboration with other professionals, communication with patients, etc., GPA might not be a good tool to evaluate such skillsets. This is why certain factors are likely to be included in the screening process especially when you look at the MMI in general. 

2. I am neither a med student or premed student. I am a hopeful candidate. The fact that you need to inquire on that status to define the value of an opinion or argument speaks volumes. Implying that having an opinion on the admission process or the curriculum is limited to Med students or physicians demonstrates limited understanding or critical thought at best. 

I am very open to discuss your thoughts on this topic in a much more inclusive and proper manner if you so wish. 

Have a wonderful day

I don’t have the time or inclination to argue with a premed who thinks they have an informed opinion on what correlates with being a good doctor or success is medical school. You are beyond words - you are trying to educate me, someone who has Finished med school and residency and works as a doctor and is involved in medical education about what is the changing skill set needed?
 

good luck. If you ever make it into medical school perhaps you will learn to not think your “opinion” is more important than the staff and residents you are learning from. 
 

You basically said I have limited or critical thought at best. A person who is a staff physician. Someone who is involved heavily in medical education. Someone that if you got into the UofT you would meet during your first week. 
 

I have limited critical thought about what it takes to be a doctor? I even showed you a study and you told me you have informed opinion. Based on what? How are you informed without being a doctor?

 

 I have no words other than I hope you change your attitude and realize you have a lot to learn from people that spent years in training to be doctor rather than trying to educate them based on your “informed opinion” as a candidate 

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13 hours ago, Raptors905 said:

I don’t have the time or inclination to argue with a premed who thinks they have an informed opinion on what correlates with being a good doctor or success is medical school. You are beyond words - you are trying to educate me, someone who has Finished med school and residency and works as a doctor and is involved in medical education about what is the changing skill set needed?
 

good luck. If you ever make it into medical school perhaps you will learn to not think your “opinion” is more important than the staff and residents you are learning from. 
 

You basically said I have limited or critical thought at best. A person who is a staff physician. Someone who is involved heavily in medical education. Someone that if you got into the UofT you would meet during your first week. 
 

I have limited critical thought about what it takes to be a doctor? I even showed you a study and you told me you have informed opinion. Based on what? How are you informed without being a doctor?

 

 I have no words other than I hope you change your attitude and realize you have a lot to learn from people that spent years in training to be doctor rather than trying to educate them based on your “informed opinion” as a candidate 

You made this thread and have a poor understanding about how the medical school admissions process works in Canada and the nature of the IP vs. OOP advantage. The difference in mean GPA we are talking about between the IP vs. OOP at McGill is maybe .1-.15 at most and the difference is that there are very few spots for OOP so they only take the absolute 'best' of those applicants in terms of CASPER, CV, and interview. The same issue occurs for Quebec students who want to apply to basically every medical school outside of Quebec with a few exceptions...there are often only 10-15 spots at a lot of Canadian medical schools for OOP.

Also moving to Quebec for X number of years with the hope of getting into McGill as an IP is a total gamble. First, the mean GPA given interview is still usually 3.85-3.9 and CASPER can have a big effect if you're not good at it...so you'd be making a gamble of moving to a province for X number of years  for like maybe 1/4 chance of succeeding if your GPA was high enough.

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4 minutes ago, jbmtl said:

Looks like you are looking for conflict when there need not be one. You made this thread and have a poor understanding about how the medical school admissions process works in Canada and the nature of the IP vs. OOP advantage. The difference in mean GPA we are talking about between the IP vs. OOP is maybe .1-.15 at most and the difference is that there are very few spots for OOP so they only take the absolute 'best' of those applicants. The same issue occurs for Quebec students who want to apply to basically every medical school outside of Quebec with a few exceptions...there are often only 10-15 spots at a lot of Canadian medical schools for OOP.

Also moving to Quebec for X number of years with the hope of getting into McGill as an IP is a total gamble. First, the mean GPA given interview is still usually 3.85-3.9 and CASPER can have a big effect if you're not good at it...so you'd be making a gamble of moving to a province for X number of years  for like maybe 1/4 chance of succeeding if your GPA was high enough on paper.

I made this thread because I don’t have a lot of knowledge at how McGill works and med school admissions outside Ontario. I was talking to some med students yesterday and one mentioned that she also got into McGill because she was considered IP. I thought this was a reasonable place to ask if there was an advantage to being IP and if you could easily obtain that 

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There is more of a disadvantage for OOP than anything. To get into McGill as OOP, it is almost impossible and you really have to be an elite candidate. That doesn't mean that it is easy to get into McGill as an IP, just more realistic (but still there is a mean GPA of interviewed candidates of like 3.9 and a bunch of other factors play a role).

https://mcgill.ca/medadmissions/prospective/our-statistics

Last year, there were around 825 IP applicants for 80 spots and 780 OOP applicants for 11 spots!

Same issue exists in other provinces with the IP vs. OOP distinction. As an example, McMaster usually only accepts 10-15 students from outside Ontario.

 

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1 hour ago, jbmtl said:

There is more of a disadvantage for OOP than anything. To get into McGill as OOP, it is almost impossible and you really have to be an elite candidate. That doesn't mean that it is easy to get into McGill as an IP, just more realistic (but still there is a mean GPA of interviewed candidates of like 3.9 and a bunch of other factors play a role).

https://mcgill.ca/medadmissions/prospective/our-statistics

Last year, there were around 825 IP applicants for 80 spots and 780 OOP applicants for 11 spots!

Same issue exists in other provinces with the IP vs. OOP distinction. As an example, McMaster usually only accepts 10-15 students from outside Ontario.

 

Yes. I guess my point is 

 

-McGill is a big school

-if you live in Ont you are already IP in Ontario 

 

-if you spend a year in Quebec now you are IP for both 

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On 1/25/2020 at 5:02 PM, Raptors905 said:

I don’t have the time or inclination to argue with a premed who thinks they have an informed opinion on what correlates with being a good doctor or success is medical school. You are beyond words - you are trying to educate me, someone who has Finished med school and residency and works as a doctor and is involved in medical education about what is the changing skill set needed?
 

good luck. If you ever make it into medical school perhaps you will learn to not think your “opinion” is more important than the staff and residents you are learning from. 
 

You basically said I have limited or critical thought at best. A person who is a staff physician. Someone who is involved heavily in medical education. Someone that if you got into the UofT you would meet during your first week. 
 

I have limited critical thought about what it takes to be a doctor? I even showed you a study and you told me you have informed opinion. Based on what? How are you informed without being a doctor?

 

 I have no words other than I hope you change your attitude and realize you have a lot to learn from people that spent years in training to be doctor rather than trying to educate them based on your “informed opinion” as a candidate 

Just as a final thought on your follow-up post. You have indicated that you are a staff physician or doctor 3 times with and additional subtle 4th in a reply to your original post where you asked the question and received adequate answers about the most distinctly different application process for a medical education program in Quebec. This is the internet and a help forum, there should be no need for flexing. Additionally, your medical degree and significant education experience should allow you to infer from the various pages on the admissions website instead of ranting on some stranger. To be fair, I am doing the same at this point. Please find below a more acceptable and complete answer to your initial and follow-up questions.

IPs are advantaged by sheer number of seat available as less seats would generally result in higher competition thus more likelihood of higher GPA values (which account for 70%) of the admission process. Statistics for past years show a progression in the GPA stats over the years at the IP level. The actual reason for this is beyond our reach but one could assume that competition plays a role as does the change in seats available from year to year. 

Another advantage for being IP is not having to do the MCAT, a requirement for almost every medical education institution except a very small number (NOSM was that way a few years ago). Being able to forgo the MCAT which is a difficult test, far more difficult than individually taking science prereqs at certain institutions where you are almost guaranteed to get an A if you put in minimal work.

While these advantages exist at McGill, they are less important at french language universities in Quebec due to a different admission format which includes difficulty adjustments or full education history investigation as opposed to most recent completed UG (see easier second UG). Not to mention that these universities especially UdeM have a large amount of seats. This could be a result of the provincial entity which dispenses medical licenses and overall a politically influenced  situation. 

One significant reason why people would do this is more likely related to tuition fees as IPs will pay a significantly smaller fee and housing remains on the cheaper side compared to certain provinces. It could also be a risk as not every OoP applicant is sufficiently fluent in French to actually work in more specialized fields in Quebec. McGill does not require French fluency at admission and provides support in french language training during the initial portion of the curriculum. French universities are more strict on the french which is often explained by their partnership with predominantly french speaking health organizations while McGill has a partnership with the MUHC and CIUSSS Westisland which received English speaking status and privileges.  

I hope this response will answer any other questions or feed your curiosity about Quebec IP vs OoP. 

I thank you for your advice about the position of a learner in the context of medical education and I hope you will receive this final piece of advice. If you believe that you cannot learn from someone who you consider to be in an inferior or different position than yourself, you will fail to acquire much knowledge and lived experiences from people who could in fact enrich your own. If you use your position and hard-work as a ''shut-up'' mechanic, you might find yourself doing a disservice to the image of the profession you so obviously value.

I wish you the best of luck in your continued participation in the improvement of quality of life and health of the population and I thank you for that commitment even if I did not appreciate your replies. It does not change the fact that you work for the benefit of others and that is respectable.

Have a wonderful rest of the day and thank you for your responses to other posts on these forums.

Cheers!

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Just a note to the pre-meds who gave thoughtful (and correct) responses and then were attacked and belittled by the OP, this is what you will experience constantly in clerkship.

Good practice, especially if you believe the OP that he/she is a physician. One of the charming perks you'll get to experience once you've been accepted.

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On 1/28/2020 at 12:19 AM, amt6500 said:

Just as a final thought on your follow-up post. You have indicated that you are a staff physician or doctor 3 times with and additional subtle 4th in a reply to your original post where you asked the question and received adequate answers about the most distinctly different application process for a medical education program in Quebec. This is the internet and a help forum, there should be no need for flexing. Additionally, your medical degree and significant education experience should allow you to infer from the various pages on the admissions website instead of ranting on some stranger. To be fair, I am doing the same at this point. Please find below a more acceptable and complete answer to your initial and follow-up questions.

IPs are advantaged by sheer number of seat available as less seats would generally result in higher competition thus more likelihood of higher GPA values (which account for 70%) of the admission process. Statistics for past years show a progression in the GPA stats over the years at the IP level. The actual reason for this is beyond our reach but one could assume that competition plays a role as does the change in seats available from year to year. 

Another advantage for being IP is not having to do the MCAT, a requirement for almost every medical education institution except a very small number (NOSM was that way a few years ago). Being able to forgo the MCAT which is a difficult test, far more difficult than individually taking science prereqs at certain institutions where you are almost guaranteed to get an A if you put in minimal work.

While these advantages exist at McGill, they are less important at french language universities in Quebec due to a different admission format which includes difficulty adjustments or full education history investigation as opposed to most recent completed UG (see easier second UG). Not to mention that these universities especially UdeM have a large amount of seats. This could be a result of the provincial entity which dispenses medical licenses and overall a politically influenced  situation. 

One significant reason why people would do this is more likely related to tuition fees as IPs will pay a significantly smaller fee and housing remains on the cheaper side compared to certain provinces. It could also be a risk as not every OoP applicant is sufficiently fluent in French to actually work in more specialized fields in Quebec. McGill does not require French fluency at admission and provides support in french language training during the initial portion of the curriculum. French universities are more strict on the french which is often explained by their partnership with predominantly french speaking health organizations while McGill has a partnership with the MUHC and CIUSSS Westisland which received English speaking status and privileges.  

I hope this response will answer any other questions or feed your curiosity about Quebec IP vs OoP. 

I thank you for your advice about the position of a learner in the context of medical education and I hope you will receive this final piece of advice. If you believe that you cannot learn from someone who you consider to be in an inferior or different position than yourself, you will fail to acquire much knowledge and lived experiences from people who could in fact enrich your own. If you use your position and hard-work as a ''shut-up'' mechanic, you might find yourself doing a disservice to the image of the profession you so obviously value.

I wish you the best of luck in your continued participation in the improvement of quality of life and health of the population and I thank you for that commitment even if I did not appreciate your replies. It does not change the fact that you work for the benefit of others and that is respectable.

Have a wonderful rest of the day and thank you for your responses to other posts on these forums.

Cheers!

 

Thank you for your response.

 

I see this and the comment below about me attacking a premed and the meanness of clerkship and questioning if I am truly a doctor etc.

 

I apologize - my intent on coming on this forum was that I was here when it first was started by Ian years ago as a premed. I went through medschool and residency and started working largely forgetting about it until I took a more active role in medical education recently. I realized in spreading to my trainees that it still existed so I thought perhaps I would come and offer a different perspective from the usual “are my stats good enough?”.

 

There do not seem to be a lot of staff doctors on here so I thought I could help med students and residents and fellows especially in the Toronto and GTA area help navigate what is out there as they start to search for a job and decided between academics/community etc. 

Although I am involved in medical admissions I feel there are enough people commenting on helping pre meds and it was not where I would be useful.

 

I asked this question after speaking to a med student in my group told me she did this and was surprised others did not. I should have perhaps taken a gentler tone to this. I was offended at comments implying I had limited critical thought and having a pre med imply that they had a very educated opinion on medical education and what makes a good doctor. 

 

To the comment that I can learn from “lessers” - I learn from my trainees all the time and that is part of the reason I have taken a more active role in medical education. I have perhaps lost sight of that here - however I will counter that I have not been treated on this forum as I have been in person in quite some time.

I had a premed student DM me and ask repeated questions about the job market for a urologist in the GTA and salaries. I spent a lot time time helping only to learn this was a person who had not even applied to med school yet. I assumed if you are asking specifics about the salary and job prospects in a sub speciality you are at least a med student if not a resident or fellow. This was disheartening to feel conned by this person wasting my time getting resources and contacts for them.

 

I may have brought some of the harsher tone on me and I take complete responsibility for this. While it’s somewhat hurtful to be talked to by a premed as if I do not know about medical education and they have a better idea and that I should learn from them about respecting opinions from lessers etc is honestly not something I am sure you would tell me if we met in person. However like I said I own this due to my initial tone and wish to stop any bad blood communication

 

I am not flexing or making myself feel better by saying I am a doctor - this is what I have been doing for years and it hoesntly isn’t that special to me as it is to people just starting medical training. 
 

You refer to yourself as neither a med student nor a premed but a hopeful candidate. That is like a resident applying to cardiology saying they aren’t a internal medicine resident but a hopeful cardiologist. I would hope you would gain a little humility before you start medical training. If you aren’t in medical school then you are a premed. 

I tried to contribute to areas I could help - providing  information about Coronovirus as I am involved in a hospital committee here to help with the virus and I was around during SARS, trying to direct people about the job market in the GTA and also about how to setup electives and such etc.

I thought I could come on here and help others by having a voice that wasn’t on this forum. It seems I have failed at this and in the interest of not making things worse I will kindly bid farewell and continue helping students and residents in a format that I seem to be better at.

 

Good luck to everyone applying to medical school and those in their medical training. Hopefully someday we can work together either in a training role or as a colleague.

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