ranking process

[Pin2020]

Hello all,

I'm sorry for asking this question, but I can't seem to really wrap my head around the nuts & bolts of submitting the rank order list

I have watched all the Carms Online videos, and I know you're supposed to rank according to your true personal preference, but I'm still curious about the following:

Is there ever, at all, in any circumstance any situation where you would be better off ranking a school 1st, which was in actuality your 2nd choice? 

(e.g. based on the stated preferences of the other candidates, if you knew that nobody would likely rank that specific program 1st?)

 

[Lactic Folly]

...If you think you'd be better off going to your 2nd choice than your 1st? Sorry, don't follow this question.

[magicm]

Rank in the order you want to train. The algorithm will place you the highest on your list that it can. Thus if you want a shot at your Top choice it has to be ranked first.

 

People who say otherwise are either poorly informed, don't understand the algorithm or are intentionally giving bad advice. 

[bearded frog]

16 minutes ago, Pin2020 said:

Is there ever, at all, in any circumstance any situation where you would be better off ranking a school 1st, which was in actuality your 2nd choice?

NO

[garlic]

DEFINITELY NOT.

The CaRMS website has a very extensive list of FAQs that clarify every possible situation: https://www.carms.ca/the-match/how-it-works/strategy

They even say for you to rank places that DIDN'T give you an interview above places that DID, if you would rather train at those places. So really, it doesn't make sense to make an ROL based on any factors other than where you want to end up.

[SillyPanda]

Uh, maybe if you were compromising to couples match with someone.

Otherwise, no. Don't try to game the system. Rank your true order of preference.

[Redpill]

Are you worried that someone else ranking your 2nd choice first may give them a better chance of matching to the program? I don't think that is the case, if you don't get your 1st choice then both you and another candidate would have an equal shot at the program and it would depend on who the program ranked higher. At least that's my understanding.

[rmorelan]

On 2/4/2020 at 7:52 PM, Pin2020 said:

Hello all,

I'm sorry for asking this question, but I can't seem to really wrap my head around the nuts & bolts of submitting the rank order list

I have watched all the Carms Online videos, and I know you're supposed to rank according to your true personal preference, but I'm still curious about the following:

Is there ever, at all, in any circumstance any situation where you would be better off ranking a school 1st, which was in actuality your 2nd choice? 

(e.g. based on the stated preferences of the other candidates, if you knew that nobody would likely rank that specific program 1st?)

 

No there isn't. 

absolutely none - the math the algorithm is based on is actually quite elegant that way.  It is mathematically proven that it produces the best outcomes if done exactly as instructed (and the proof is pretty cool actually)

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by rmorelan

[Edict]

On 2/4/2020 at 7:52 PM, Pin2020 said:

Hello all,

I'm sorry for asking this question, but I can't seem to really wrap my head around the nuts & bolts of submitting the rank order list

I have watched all the Carms Online videos, and I know you're supposed to rank according to your true personal preference, but I'm still curious about the following:

Is there ever, at all, in any circumstance any situation where you would be better off ranking a school 1st, which was in actuality your 2nd choice? 

(e.g. based on the stated preferences of the other candidates, if you knew that nobody would likely rank that specific program 1st?)

 

I was in your SAME position. maybe i'm dumb or very skeptical, but somehow the CaRMS explanation didn't make enough sense for me. I actually didn't understand it right all the way until CaRMS and i actually made some poor decisions in hindsight based on that mistaken thinking. 

I went to the NRMP which uses the same algorithm, but they have a video that worked for me. http://www.nrmp.org/matching-algorithm/ 

After that, I went back to the CaRMS explanation and it all made sense. 

There is absolutely NEVER a situation where you are better off ranking a school 1st which is actually your 2nd choice. Essentially, there is a concept of "provisional matching", which means that you match to your 1st choice (as long as the program RANKS you somewhere on their rank list), and you are provisionally matched until some other applicant who ranked that spot 1st also wants that spot. At that point, the algorithm looks at the program's rank list. Whoever is higher takes the spot, the other is bumped down to the next spot. If there is no more next spot, then you go back to the pool and your original 2nd choice becomes your first choice (and so on, if you keep getting rejected you move to your original 3rd choice, 4th, 5th, but all these rankings become your 1st choice). 

In essence, everytime an applicant tries to provisionally match to a program, they are trying to match to their school as if it is their 1st choice. It doesn't matter if you ranked Toronto 14th, if your top 13 choices didn't work out, Toronto is now your 1st choice and if there is 1 spot left in Toronto and you are the highest ranked candidate that Toronto ranked out of the pool of remaining candidates, then that spot is yours. 

The best way to understand it is imagine if this program just runs candidates by last name from A-Z, matching everyone. No one is truly matched to a program until the algorithm has run down candidates from A-Z thousands of times exhausting every possible match scenario. Each time this algorithm runs down this list of candidates, the list gets shorter and shorter as people start "provisionally matching" to programs that have also ranked the high enough to match. For example, if program A ranks you 1st there is no way anyone will bump you, so you will never go back to the general pool. 

It truly is candidate first, but make no mistake program rank matters a lot. As a candidate, your goal is to convince all programs to rank you very high, to maximize your chance of matching. 

 

[MedHopeful93]

OK sorry to be continuing this age old discussion 

I know we're told to rank based on our preference, but based on that presentation, wouldn't it be in your best interest to rank places higher that you feel you did better in?  For example, if you clicked really well with a program and the interview wen't well, wouldn't your chances of matching there be higher assuming they also ranked you higher? 

 

This is so confusing to me and I'm probably just overthinking it!

[JohnGrisham]

18 minutes ago, MedHopeful93 said:

OK sorry to be continuing this age old discussion 

I know we're told to rank based on our preference, but based on that presentation, wouldn't it be in your best interest to rank places higher that you feel you did better in?  For example, if you clicked really well with a program and the interview wen't well, wouldn't your chances of matching there be higher assuming they also ranked you higher? 

 

This is so confusing to me and I'm probably just overthinking it!

No.

No.

No.

No.

You always rank on where YOU WANT TO GO. Full stop.

 

Who cares if your 2nd choice interview went well? If its your 2nd choice, still put it as #2. Your chances are EXACTLY THE SAME to match to that place, if you dont get your 1st choice. 

But what WILL happen if you put your 2nd choice as Rank 1, is that you would MATCH THERE, even though your true 1st choice rank was later,and you automatically lose ANY chance of matching there. 

[Dr. JJ]

18 minutes ago, MedHopeful93 said:

I know we're told to rank based on our preference, but based on that presentation, wouldn't it be in your best interest to rank places higher that you feel you did better in?

No; definitely not. Your ranking has no affect on how that program "that you feel you did better in" ranks you. Indeed, they will never know how you ranked them.

If you did poorly in the interview for your #1 choice, and well for your #2, it is of course entirely likely that this will affect how they rank you; however, it should in no way affect how you rank them. So you put your #1 as #1, and your #2 as #2. If you're right about how you did, you won't match to your #1, and you will match to your #2. Your chances of success in matching to #2 are not impacted by putting your #1 ahead of it, except in the one happy case in which you match to your #1.

-JJ

[rmorelan]

1 hour ago, MedHopeful93 said:

OK sorry to be continuing this age old discussion 

I know we're told to rank based on our preference, but based on that presentation, wouldn't it be in your best interest to rank places higher that you feel you did better in?  For example, if you clicked really well with a program and the interview wen't well, wouldn't your chances of matching there be higher assuming they also ranked you higher? 

 

This is so confusing to me and I'm probably just overthinking it!

you are over thinking it

that won't work the way you are thinking it does. You wouldn't get an advantage that way - and in fact you may get sent to a school you desire less that way. 

Don't ever play games with the algorithm - rank always in order of preference. 

 

[MedHopeful93]

2 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

No.

No.

No.

No.

You always rank on where YOU WANT TO GO. Full stop.

 

Who cares if your 2nd choice interview went well? If its your 2nd choice, still put it as #2. Your chances are EXACTLY THE SAME to match to that place, if you dont get your 1st choice. 

But what WILL happen if you put your 2nd choice as Rank 1, is that you would MATCH THERE, even though your true 1st choice rank was later,and you automatically lose ANY chance of matching there. 

Looks like the jury has spoken 

I shall not play games with the CaRMS algorithm then!

 

[Dr. JJ]

1 minute ago, MedHopeful93 said:

Looks like the jury has spoken 

I shall not play games with the CaRMS algorithm then!

 

Don't worry; you have another 11 months for other folks to put strange CARMS conspiracy theories in your head, before then circling back to this thread, and composing a rational list next year!

[rmorelan]

3 hours ago, Dr. JJ said:

Don't worry; you have another 11 months for other folks to put strange CARMS conspiracy theories in your head, before then circling back to this thread, and composing a rational list next year!

ha and they will - you will hear all kinds of stupid things about the CARMS algorithm. Over thinking after all is how many of us got into med school in the first place

Edited March 3, 2020 by rmorelan