Does anyone ever get an interview/acceptance with a wGPA in the low 3.8s?

[scoobydoo1623]

Any RECENT anecdotes from UofT ? Give us competition-straddlers hope, ya'll. 

 

 

[bruh]

Graduate applicants do. A friend of mine got an interview with a wGPA in the low 3.8s.

 

Ive heard of undergrad applicants getting in with wGPA’s as low as 3.87 but I think below that is quite unheard of for UG applicants.

[WillbeMD2024]

Very rare I'd say.

[Anon_9]

This guys journey is incredible! He got accepted to Mac with a low GPA! I don't think it's as rare as we think, based on the GPAs posted on the Accepted/Waitlisted/Rejected threads of previous years

 

[rcmp1234]

Was responsible for admissions at UofT previously (resident now) and the only ones who were accepted with low GPAs (lower than 3.9) are graduate applicants. For undergraduate students its next to impossible, though if you are black, there is a separate Black diversity program at UofT that doesn't take GPA into account, so you can get in with GPA in the 3.6, 3.7 or 3.8s.

[chrysalis]

10 minutes ago, rcmp1234 said:

Was responsible for admissions at UofT previously (resident now) and the only ones who were accepted with low GPAs (lower than 3.9) are graduate applicants. For undergraduate students its next to impossible, though if you are black, there is a separate Black diversity program at UofT that doesn't take GPA into account, so you can get in with GPA in the 3.6, 3.7 or 3.8s.

What are you on about? 

[DrZoidberg]

I was accepted with a wGPA in the low 3.8s as an UG applicant not overly long ago, and know of a reasonable number of people who were. It is definitely NOT true that only grad applicants get in with wGPAs <3.9.

[scoobydoo1623]

 

26 minutes ago, rcmp1234 said:

Was responsible for admissions at UofT previously (resident now) and the only ones who were accepted with low GPAs (lower than 3.9) are graduate applicants. For undergraduate students its next to impossible, though if you are black, there is a separate Black diversity program at UofT that doesn't take GPA into account, so you can get in with GPA in the 3.6, 3.7 or 3.8s.

LOL. What distinguishes one graduate applicant from the next? 

[scoobydoo1623]

10 minutes ago, DrZoidberg said:

I was accepted with a wGPA in the low 3.8s as an UG applicant not overly long ago, and know of a reasonable number of people who were. It is definitely NOT true that only grad applicants get in with wGPAs <3.9.

Glad to hear - What do you think made you exceptional?

[scoobydoo1623]

3 hours ago, RiderSx said:

Graduate applicants do. A friend of mine got an interview with a wGPA in the low 3.8s.

 

Ive heard of undergrad applicants getting in with wGPA’s as low as 3.87 but I think below that is quite unheard of for UG applicants.

Was your friend an overly-accomplished graduate student? Luckily I'll be applying as a graduate applicant, so hopefully they'll forgive my GPA lol

[Onemoreday]

Got interviewed and accepted at Western as an undergrad with 3.75; but had research experience in my ECs. 

Being a graduate doesn't magically make it better but if you've boosted your ECs as a new graduate then yes. If you're actually really into research then apply MD/PhD where your research matters more.

[Anon_9]

On 5/13/2020 at 9:05 PM, rcmp1234 said:

Was responsible for admissions at UofT previously (resident now) and the only ones who were accepted with low GPAs (lower than 3.9) are graduate applicants. For undergraduate students its next to impossible, though if you are black, there is a separate Black diversity program at UofT that doesn't take GPA into account, so you can get in with GPA in the 3.6, 3.7 or 3.8s.

Okay hold up- that is completely FALSE. All those who apply through BSAP (the black students application program) need to uphold the same qualifications as ANY other student. The only difference is, you get a black individual (a physician, community member, etc) to review your application and also have the opportunity for them to interview you during the interview process. And for this to even happen, you need to write a separate essay to be qualified for the program. Please review your facts before you make false claims like this.

[mcgillmdbd]

1 hour ago, Anon_9 said:

Okay hold up- that is completely FALSE. All those who apply through BSAP (the black students application program) need to uphold the same qualifications as ANY other student. The only difference is, you get a black individual (a physician, community member, etc) to review your application and also have the opportunity for them to interview you during interview process. And for this to even happen, you need to write a separate essay to be qualified for the program. Please review your facts before you make false claims like this.

Not commenting on what the previous poster said, but I do not believe this is the case. BSAP applicants need to meet the requirements like everyone else (minimum MCAT score and GPA), but they are assessed against one another in a parallel applicant pool. Another note is that, the year before BSAP was established, there was only one black student among 259 (which is unacceptable). The following year after the program's founding, there was about 50 BSAP applicants, of which 18 applicants were offered admission. 

[bruh]

10 hours ago, scoobydoo0216 said:

Was your friend an overly-accomplished graduate student? Luckily I'll be applying as a graduate applicant, so hopefully they'll forgive my GPA lol

No he is not overly accomplished. He has 1 publication only. Several of my grad friends with 4.0 GPAs did not get in, but one with a 3.8 did! Unfortunately he was not accepted but he says he bombed the interview.

[medicallyricalmiracle]

7 hours ago, mcgillmdbd said:

Not commenting on what the previous poster said, but I do not believe this is the case. BSAP applicants need to meet the requirements like everyone else (minimum MCAT score and GPA), but they are assessed against one another in a parallel applicant pool. Another note is that, the year before BSAP was established, there was only one black student among 259 (which is unacceptable). The following year after the program's founding, there was about 50 BSAP applicants, of which 18 applicants were offered admission. 

haha who told you they're assessed against one another? perhaps admission increased because more students felt confident enough to apply in the first place, followed by the nullification of unconscious anti-black bias in the admissions process?

[chrysalis]

50 minutes ago, supadupafly said:

haha who told you they're assessed against one another? perhaps admission increased because more students felt confident enough to apply in the first place, followed by the nullification of unconscious anti-black bias in the admissions process?

^This!!!!!

[scoobydoo1623]

9 hours ago, supadupafly said:

haha who told you they're assessed against one another? perhaps admission increased because more students felt confident enough to apply in the first place, followed by the nullification of unconscious anti-black bias in the admissions process?

 

16 hours ago, mcgillmdbd said:

Not commenting on what the previous poster said, but I do not believe this is the case. BSAP applicants need to meet the requirements like everyone else (minimum MCAT score and GPA), but they are assessed against one another in a parallel applicant pool. Another note is that, the year before BSAP was established, there was only one black student among 259 (which is unacceptable). The following year after the program's founding, there was about 50 BSAP applicants, of which 18 applicants were offered admission. 

We all know that being invited to interview is the greatest barrier to admission. If it's true that 18/50 BSAP applicants were offered admission, that would mean that, most likely, >18 BSAP applicants interviewed. This interview rate seems unusually really high. Where are you getting these numbers? 

Supadupafly, I understand how there might be unconscious anti-black bias during the face-to-face interview process, but how is this bias present pre-interview, when admissions is deciding who to invite in the first place? Please educate, I'm genuinely curious. 

[medicallyricalmiracle]

I understand - the file review process is anonymized but it’s possible that EC activities involving black communities may illicit similar unconscious biases. Furthermore, there’s simply an under representation of black students in medicine as a whole; and so the stream’s mere existence is expected to increase applications. Not saying it’s percect, but it will help bring black doctors into medicine who can treat in communities with high black populations (eg....Toronto lol)

 

also, the 50 applicants figure im almost certain is incorrect. A U of T pdf I found showed it was about 90-something applicants and 18 matriculants 

[readytostresseat]

I spoke with a doctor who use to be on the admissions committee and she said that undergrads with wGPAs <3.9 are generally not accepted unless they have something extraordinary on their CV (e.g. made the Olympics)

[scoobydoo1623]

1 hour ago, supadupafly said:

I understand - the file review process is anonymized but it’s possible that EC activities involving black communities may illicit similar unconscious biases. Furthermore, there’s simply an under representation of black students in medicine as a whole; and so the stream’s mere existence is expected to increase applications. Not saying it’s percect, but it will help bring black doctors into medicine who can treat in communities with high black populations (eg....Toronto lol)

 

also, the 50 applicants figure im almost certain is incorrect. A U of T pdf I found showed it was about 90-something applicants and 18 matriculants 

I see! I'm not challenging BSAP implementation, because I certainly think it's essential. Just not clear about how fair the admission mechanism might be, but it's all speculation. We all don't know anything. 

 

 

 

[chrysalis]

16 minutes ago, scoobydoo1623 said:

I see! I'm not challenging BSAP implementation, because I certainly think it's essential. Just not clear about how fair the admission mechanism might be, but it's all speculation. We all don't know anything. 

 

 

 

Why would it be unfair as an admissions mechanism?

[scoobydoo1623]

1 hour ago, chrysalis said:

Why would it be unfair as an admissions mechanism?

I'm not saying that the admissions mechanism underlying BSAP is unfair - I'm saying that we just don't know whether it is or not. No one knows how they decide who gets interviews and who doesn't in the BSAP pool.   

There are a few mechanisms that we know would be unfair though. For example: if ALL BSAP applicants underwent full file review regardless of GPA, I think that would be unfair because it allows ECs to 'steer' the decision of an interview invitation in a way that isn't available for applicants with lower GPAs in the general application pool. 

Again, since no one knows how they do it, then we can't really come to any conclusion. However, the concept of BSAP is undisputed with respect to necessity. 

[mcgillmdbd]

3 hours ago, supadupafly said:

I understand - the file review process is anonymized but it’s possible that EC activities involving black communities may illicit similar unconscious biases. Furthermore, there’s simply an under representation of black students in medicine as a whole; and so the stream’s mere existence is expected to increase applications. Not saying it’s percect, but it will help bring black doctors into medicine who can treat in communities with high black populations (eg....Toronto lol)

 

also, the 50 applicants figure im almost certain is incorrect. A U of T pdf I found showed it was about 90-something applicants and 18 matriculants 

I agree, many applicants may worry about bias against their ECs if they were heavily involved in the black community. Also, not that it matters that much, but I'm pretty sure in that PDF the number of applicants was between 50 and 60. 

I also don't fully understand how such applicants could hesitate to apply to U of T. A med school applicant has high grades, already took the MCAT, and spent so much time and effort for at least +3 years. At that point, how and why would they be "hesitant" to apply to U of T? I agree that there needs to be more representation in medicine, but I cannot believe that argument that this program solely exists to "encourage" black applicants to apply and to eliminate bias

 

[medicallyricalmiracle]

2 minutes ago, mcgillmdbd said:

I agree, many applicants may worry about bias against their ECs if they were heavily involved in the black community. Also, not that it matters that much, but I'm pretty sure in that PDF the number of applicants was between 50 and 60. 

I also don't fully understand how such applicants could hesitate to apply to U of T. A med school applicant has high grades, already took the MCAT, and spent so much time and effort for at least +3 years. At that point, how and why would they be "hesitant" to apply to U of T? I agree that there needs to be more representation in medicine, but I cannot believe that argument that this program solely exists to "encourage" black applicants to apply and to eliminate bias

 

Nope. Toronto's internal doc puts the applications at 92 and offers at 17 for the first cycle that bsap was implemented. Still higher than average, but just for accuracy's sake.

Personal experience: I was outright discouraged from applying to medicine by my loved ones because of the statistical representation of black medical doctors. People don't want to see you pursue what they think is a "wild dream" from their perspective.

Additional factors: black people are disproportionately poor, raised in single-parent homes and raised in homes where the parent hasn't received graduate or professional education. These all correlate to academic underachievement, mental illness, and criminal involvement - especially for young boys. These factors can interact to drastically amplify the under-representation of certain ethnic minorities. 

Certainly, their end goal was explicitly to increase the attendance of qualified black medical students in a fair and just way. This makes sense, Toronto has a high concentration of black citizens and they deserve to have representation from their communities in their medical doctors (considering that white doctors have been consistently found to give worse care to black patients than equivalent white patients, certainly not intentionally but likely due to subconscious gaps in empathy/experience).

[mcgillmdbd]

12 minutes ago, supadupafly said:

Nope. Toronto's internal doc puts the applications at 92 and offers at 17 for the first cycle that bsap was implemented. Still higher than average, but just for accuracy's sake.

but likely due to subconscious gaps in empathy/experience).

 

I see, I apologize for the mistake in numbers. Thank you for correcting my mistake.

 

12 minutes ago, supadupafly said:

Personal experience: I was outright discouraged from applying to medicine by my loved ones because of the statistical representation of black medical doctors. People don't want to see you pursue what they think is a "wild dream" from their perspective.

Additional factors: black people are disproportionately poor, raised in single-parent homes and raised in homes where the parent hasn't received graduate or professional education. These all correlate to academic underachievement, mental illness, and criminal involvement - especially for young boys. These factors can interact to drastically amplify the under-representation of certain ethnic minorities. 

Thank you for sharing your experience. As I mentioned earlier in my previous comments, I absolutely believe that there is underrepresentation in medicine. I am aware of those additional factors and I am not arguing against the existence of the program.

I just had to raise the question against the statistics of applicants admitted under BSAP. 17 offers were made, and I am guessing that the number of people invited for interviews was significantly higher than 17. Given that the acceptance rate at U of T is about ~8%, I do believe that BSAP applicants have a slight edge in the application process (purely statistically speaking). That is the point I was trying to highlight.