Mac Med, Covid-19: Some objective advice

[waterbottl]

Hello and good morning. Some of you may recognize my username from other threads - for those who don't, I recently posted some advice that received a bit of attention. I thought it would be helpful to collate my fragmented advice into a single post so that any incoming c2023 struggling with their decision making on whether to choose Mac this year or not can get some perspective. 

For reference, I am a current Mac student with some perspective on how the program has run and changed over the past few years. To preface this post: I am not here to discourage anyone from accepting their mac offer. Mac is indeed a great school, but during these times, there may be additional considerations that need to be made. As such, my goal here is to challenge the positive commentary that McMaster receives during this time and give you a more balanced perspective. 

I would also like to extend my congratulations to anyone who received an offer this year. Do not listen to anyone who tries to belittle your achievement because the selection was done via lottery. You have all achieved a great feat and deserve to be where you are. For those who are on the waitlist, do not lose hope. The Mac waitlist tends to move a lot, and I assume it will move a lot this year. And for those who received a rejection, do not give up! You are all qualified - that's how you all got an interview in the first place. 

Let me start off by saying that what I have noticed on this forum and on the google doc started by upper years in the official Facebook group is that the advice is not objective. Inevitably, their loyalty to their school clouds their advice and causes them to give ONLY positive advice. No upper year, when they can be identified, will give you a balanced opinion on what the drawbacks might be. Further, the advice that you get only tells you why you should come to Mac, and while the majority of that advice would be wonderful under normal circumstances, it is not quite applicable to a situation like that which we are facing. 

So let's take a look. 

Firstly, I have no reservations against McMaster. I was a non-traditional student, with no PBL background. Though I found it difficult to adapt to PBL for the first few months (yes, it can be a challenge), McMaster does an excellent job at supporting its students, ensuring their mental health is optimal, and receiving and implementing feedback. The school is no doubt an amazing one, and I wouldn't have chosen another medical school...unless a situation like COVID-19 cropped up while I was deciding.

There are a few things to consider when deciding on whether one should go to Mac this year: 

• COVID's impact on a 3 year program, especially with the recent curriculum change
• Public perception of the lottery system

To speak to the first point, McMaster implemented, as I'm sure you all know by now, a new curriculum this past year. Though I have not first-hand experienced these changes, many of my closest friends who are in their first year currently have experienced some discontent with its implementation and delivery. In their defence, they are excellent at taking feedback and revising the program delivery, but the curriculum remains mostly the same. In that light, its development did not take into account (and understandably so) a situation like COVID. Many of the online lectures right now that are mandatory feel forced and with all that is going on, tiring to sit through (re: "active learning sessions"). Mac has also traditionally had a weak focus on anatomy, but self-directed students were always able to go to the lab themselves and learn from preceptors. This is no longer possible, and will likely be impossible into the foreseeable future for c2023s. In other words, an already weak anatomy curriculum (and by weak, I mean severely lacking) has become tremendously weaker. Speaking of self-directed learning, this process was quite a bit easier when resources like professors, mentors, and friends were available to guide us in person. This is also no longer the case. We do not get our own resources - we have to find them ourselves, which I am fine with, but there is a huge barrier right now in how to reach out to students who may be finding this process difficult. Imagine if you're new to PBL and what that would look like? Actually, I have heard from several students from the first year class that their tutorials and other PBL sessions are a huge mess - disengaged, ineffective learning, and altogether clumsy facilitated sessions because what was designed to be done in-person is now being done online. In my opinion, it almost seems like schools that are non-PBL and engage in a more traditional format are currently satisfying their students much more. 

Let me clarify some points above:

• I have heard about the changes to the curriculum. I have no doubt that they have made the changes to better suit the class and improve on their flaws. But, again, the active large group sessions were made to be effective in a setting conducive to PBL (i.e., in person). These LGS sessions become extremely ineffective online for several reasons (also from evidence): 1) people are likely to pay less attention, 2) people are less likely to do pre-lecture preparations, and 3) when working from home, people would far rather view lectures on their own time rather than being forced to attend a session at a specified time (i.e., environment-induced habits). I do not disagree that there are ways for it to be effective. For example, and like a user has mentioned in this forum, the neuro TBLs seem to be very helpful and popular. Yet, it is the variability in the delivery and the usefulness of most lectures that is the problem. I cannot cite enough first-years who have complained about the LGSs being already quite long and cumbersome to attend in person, and I cannot imagine it being any better online. The online lectures that are posted from the past are great.  
• Anatomy has been adapted online and I have heard that their "Lab talks" are great. That being said, it is not possible to fully appreciate, especially for surgery gunners, anatomy without dissections and actual cadaveric specimens. So this does not solve the problem, it only puts a little bandage on it.
• My point about PBL becoming extremely disengaging and discombobulated is not that it is not impossible to learn online. It will be very difficult to learn it online (coming from someone who had no previous exposure to PBL and already had problems adapting to mac's PBL in person) and that in and of itself is a problem for those either not familiar with PBL or the material. But the greater point here is that the PBL is taking place in a highly uncontrolled setting. Tutorials in person were very controlled settings in which students could learn actively and from each other, as well as from an experienced tutor. Though that does not change, the added element of not being in the same vicinity takes away from the effectiveness of PBL and instead creates additional distractions that I have no doubt students are already facing. For example, I know of several first-year students who instead of engaging in tutorial as much as they would before now do other work unrelated to tutorial. This is bad for both the student and his/her peers. 
• The explanation that the transition for current students has been easier is not exactly a reason why we should believe the transition to an online self-directed PBL platform for new students will be easy. In fact, it will be extremely difficult. Take it from someone who had no clue what PBL was when it was done in person and still struggled like crazy.

Also consider that the majority of planning for one's future career was done through horizontal electives (which are already an absolute pain to get - we can't even seek out our own supervisors, we have to go through a pre-approved system that has so many problems), a family medicine experience (which I loved and so did many others), and the post-MF4 electives (which will likely not exist going forward until this situation resolves). There is no more opportunity to engage in any of these and regardless of what anyone says, these are absolutely crucial in narrowing down your options. Plot this with the fact that Mac is three years - meaning by the end of the first half of your first-year you should have an idea where you want to go so you can pick your appropriate clerkship streams - this whole covid situation becomes tragic to any first-year mac med student.

As for the second point, sure it may be true that no one (especially during a CARMS interview) would outright question the c2023 class for being a lottery. I don't think they would either - and if they did that would be ridiculous. But this whole process of admission is gaining media attention quickly and won't be forgotten as quickly as people think it will be. It's very easy to say that no one will remember these things a few years from now. But people remember things, and medicine is something that is generally always in the public view. That means people won't forget and will internalize, as we all do, the fact that the class was chosen by lottery. My point here is NOT to say that CARMS/residency interviews will be affected by this. They most likely will not. My point is that there will be plenty of stigma - from students, from the public, and from whoever else may be concerned. Medical school is already tough as it is, it makes it even tougher when people question your position and deservedness to be here. You do deserve it. My point is for those who might find it difficult to face this stigma, perhaps this is an additional consideration that needs to be made. 

All of this doesn't mean that you shouldn't go to Mac. But it does mean that you should think carefully about what you prefer and how you want your medical education to pan out. You only get to be in medical school once, and while it is true that there are many more things past medical school, it is also true that a LOT of learning comes from medical school that eventually gets transferred over into how you perform as a clerk, and subsequently, as a resident. Don't be swayed by one argument or another - most of the advice on this forum and on the facebook group is either completely positive or completely negative. What does that tell you? (That they're biased one way or another). 

For those of you who are comfortable with the expected fast-paced environment (no doubt faster than it has been before), not having adequate time and opportunity to decide on your future career path (remember, your next year is probably going to be online, and if the schools do reopen, then very little (or no) clinical activity will be resumed, especially for first-years as they are not priority), and/or have prior experience in the field, McMaster may not be such a bad choice. But, and as I suspect is most of the applicant pool, for those who are new to healthcare, ponder a little more over what you prefer and how you want to learn. What matters most to you? 

Hope this helps. 

Cheers. 

[hijkl]

.

[waterbottl]

1 hour ago, inkbat said:

this is all very depressing to someone who may not have a choice...

I do sympathize with those who have do not have a choice. There are of course plenty of reasons to attend McMaster. Getting an acceptance is huge on its own and any school will make you a competent doctor, just that people will have very different experiences that may or may not be ideal. But, that shouldn’t take away from an honest discussion for those who might have a choice, I think. 

Extending my best wishes to everyone, regardless of what you choose! 

[PequalsMD]

22 minutes ago, waterbottl said:

I do sympathize with those who have do not have a choice. There are of course plenty of reasons to attend McMaster. Getting an acceptance is huge on its own and any school will make you a competent doctor, just that people will have very different experiences that may or may not be ideal. But, that shouldn’t take away from an honest discussion for those who might have a choice, I think. 

Extending my best wishes to everyone, regardless of what you choose! 

Oh facts? Didn't seem obvious based on your post.

[waterbottl]

25 minutes ago, WuhanClan said:

Oh facts? Didn't seem obvious based on your post.

No need to turn this into something personal  As I said in my post, my purpose was to give the side of the story that seemed to be missing sometimes. I cited several reasons why McMaster is a fine school, but why it might not be the best choice for certain groups of people at a time like this. 

[James Nystead]

2 hours ago, inkbat said:

this is all very depressing to someone who may not have a choice...

If it gives you any solace, all 204 of you are in the same boat and will weather the COVID storm together.

[James Nystead]

6 hours ago, waterbottl said:

Hello and good morning. Some of you may recognize my username from other threads - for those who don't, I recently posted some advice that received a bit of attention. I thought it would be helpful to collate my fragmented advice into a single post so that any incoming c2023 struggling with their decision making on whether to choose Mac this year or not can get some perspective. 

For reference, I am a current Mac student with some perspective on how the program has run and changed over the past few years. To preface this post: I am not here to discourage anyone from accepting their mac offer. Mac is indeed a great school, but during these times, there may be additional considerations that need to be made. As such, my goal here is to challenge the positive commentary that McMaster receives during this time and give you a more balanced perspective. 

I would also like to extend my congratulations to anyone who received an offer this year. Do not listen to anyone who tries to belittle your achievement because the selection was done via lottery. You have all achieved a great feat and deserve to be where you are. For those who are on the waitlist, do not lose hope. The Mac waitlist tends to move a lot, and I assume it will move a lot this year. And for those who received a rejection, do not give up! You are all qualified - that's how you all got an interview in the first place. 

Let me start off by saying that what I have noticed on this forum and on the google doc started by upper years in the official Facebook group is that the advice is not objective. Inevitably, their loyalty to their school clouds their advice and causes them to give ONLY positive advice. No upper year, when they can be identified, will give you a balanced opinion on what the drawbacks might be. Further, the advice that you get only tells you why you should come to Mac, and while the majority of that advice would be wonderful under normal circumstances, it is not quite applicable to a situation like that which we are facing. 

So let's take a look. 

Firstly, I have no reservations against McMaster. I was a non-traditional student, with no PBL background. Though I found it difficult to adapt to PBL for the first few months (yes, it can be a challenge), McMaster does an excellent job at supporting its students, ensuring their mental health is optimal, and receiving and implementing feedback. The school is no doubt an amazing one, and I wouldn't have chosen another medical school...unless a situation like COVID-19 cropped up while I was deciding.

There are a few things to consider when deciding on whether one should go to Mac this year: 

• COVID's impact on a 3 year program, especially with the recent curriculum change
• Public perception of the lottery system

To speak to the first point, McMaster implemented, as I'm sure you all know by now, a new curriculum this past year. Though I have not first-hand experienced these changes, many of my closest friends who are in their first year currently have experienced some discontent with its implementation and delivery. In their defence, they are excellent at taking feedback and revising the program delivery, but the curriculum remains mostly the same. In that light, its development did not take into account (and understandably so) a situation like COVID. Many of the online lectures right now that are mandatory feel forced and with all that is going on, tiring to sit through (re: "active learning sessions"). Mac has also traditionally had a weak focus on anatomy, but self-directed students were always able to go to the lab themselves and learn from preceptors. This is no longer possible, and will likely be impossible into the foreseeable future for c2023s. In other words, an already weak anatomy curriculum (and by weak, I mean severely lacking) has become tremendously weaker. Speaking of self-directed learning, this process was quite a bit easier when resources like professors, mentors, and friends were available to guide us in person. This is also no longer the case. We do not get our own resources - we have to find them ourselves, which I am fine with, but there is a huge barrier right now in how to reach out to students who may be finding this process difficult. Imagine if you're new to PBL and what that would look like? Actually, I have heard from several students from the first year class that their tutorials and other PBL sessions are a huge mess - disengaged, ineffective learning, and altogether clumsy facilitated sessions because what was designed to be done in-person is now being done online. In my opinion, it almost seems like schools that are non-PBL and engage in a more traditional format are currently satisfying their students much more. 

Let me clarify some points above:

• I have heard about the changes to the curriculum. I have no doubt that they have made the changes to better suit the class and improve on their flaws. But, again, the active large group sessions were made to be effective in a setting conducive to PBL (i.e., in person). These LGS sessions become extremely ineffective online for several reasons (also from evidence): 1) people are likely to pay less attention, 2) people are less likely to do pre-lecture preparations, and 3) when working from home, people would far rather view lectures on their own time rather than being forced to attend a session at a specified time (i.e., environment-induced habits). I do not disagree that there are ways for it to be effective. For example, and like a user has mentioned in this forum, the neuro TBLs seem to be very helpful and popular. Yet, it is the variability in the delivery and the usefulness of most lectures that is the problem. I cannot cite enough first-years who have complained about the LGSs being already quite long and cumbersome to attend in person, and I cannot imagine it being any better online. The online lectures that are posted from the past are great.  
• Anatomy has been adapted online and I have heard that their "Lab talks" are great. That being said, it is not possible to fully appreciate, especially for surgery gunners, anatomy without dissections and actual cadaveric specimens. So this does not solve the problem, it only puts a little bandage on it.
• My point about PBL becoming extremely disengaging and discombobulated is not that it is not impossible to learn online. It will be very difficult to learn it online (coming from someone who had no previous exposure to PBL and already had problems adapting to mac's PBL in person) and that in and of itself is a problem for those either not familiar with PBL or the material. But the greater point here is that the PBL is taking place in a highly uncontrolled setting. Tutorials in person were very controlled settings in which students could learn actively and from each other, as well as from an experienced tutor. Though that does not change, the added element of not being in the same vicinity takes away from the effectiveness of PBL and instead creates additional distractions that I have no doubt students are already facing. For example, I know of several first-year students who instead of engaging in tutorial as much as they would before now do other work unrelated to tutorial. This is bad for both the student and his/her peers. 
• The explanation that the transition for current students has been easier is not exactly a reason why we should believe the transition to an online self-directed PBL platform for new students will be easy. In fact, it will be extremely difficult. Take it from someone who had no clue what PBL was when it was done in person and still struggled like crazy.

Also consider that the majority of planning for one's future career was done through horizontal electives (which are already an absolute pain to get - we can't even seek out our own supervisors, we have to go through a pre-approved system that has so many problems), a family medicine experience (which I loved and so did many others), and the post-MF4 electives (which will likely not exist going forward until this situation resolves). There is no more opportunity to engage in any of these and regardless of what anyone says, these are absolutely crucial in narrowing down your options. Plot this with the fact that Mac is three years - meaning by the end of the first half of your first-year you should have an idea where you want to go so you can pick your appropriate clerkship streams - this whole covid situation becomes tragic to any first-year mac med student.

As for the second point, sure it may be true that no one (especially during a CARMS interview) would outright question the c2023 class for being a lottery. I don't think they would either - and if they did that would be ridiculous. But this whole process of admission is gaining media attention quickly and won't be forgotten as quickly as people think it will be. It's very easy to say that no one will remember these things a few years from now. But people remember things, and medicine is something that is generally always in the public view. That means people won't forget and will internalize, as we all do, the fact that the class was chosen by lottery. My point here is NOT to say that CARMS/residency interviews will be affected by this. They most likely will not. My point is that there will be plenty of stigma - from students, from the public, and from whoever else may be concerned. Medical school is already tough as it is, it makes it even tougher when people question your position and deservedness to be here. You do deserve it. My point is for those who might find it difficult to face this stigma, perhaps this is an additional consideration that needs to be made. 

All of this doesn't mean that you shouldn't go to Mac. But it does mean that you should think carefully about what you prefer and how you want your medical education to pan out. You only get to be in medical school once, and while it is true that there are many more things past medical school, it is also true that a LOT of learning comes from medical school that eventually gets transferred over into how you perform as a clerk, and subsequently, as a resident. Don't be swayed by one argument or another - most of the advice on this forum and on the facebook group is either completely positive or completely negative. What does that tell you? (That they're biased one way or another). 

For those of you who are comfortable with the expected fast-paced environment (no doubt faster than it has been before), not having adequate time and opportunity to decide on your future career path (remember, your next year is probably going to be online, and if the schools do reopen, then very little (or no) clinical activity will be resumed, especially for first-years as they are not priority), and/or have prior experience in the field, McMaster may not be such a bad choice. But, and as I suspect is most of the applicant pool, for those who are new to healthcare, ponder a little more over what you prefer and how you want to learn. What matters most to you? 

Hope this helps. 

Cheers. 

Thank you very much for your detailed post, I do agree that the lack of anonymity + students wanting to highlight their school (and their own biases that led them to choose Mac) makes it hard to see the other side of the coin. I especially resonate with your concerns about COVID affects on clinical experiences. If you ask any Mac clerk or grad, they would agree that horizontals are the highest yield in choosing specialty which guides ECs, research, stream selection, elective selection, etc etc etc

[bearded frog]

Everyone is way overstating the lottery thing. From a senior resident and previous mac grad I can assure you that nobody who matters really cares now and will certainly not care in 3 years time. There is no stigma outside of premed circles, seriously, just search around medtwitter for staff/residents commenting on it.

[convertedlurker]

I don't want to create suspicion or cast doubt on anyone but be weary of accounts that have been created very recently and seem very invested in your school choice.

As per advice I saw from another post on a Western thread, put more weight on the advice given by loved ones and people you personally know that have your best interest in mind. 

I'm sure we're all great people with good intentions but this is a high stakes game so take all advice with a grain of salt.

Good luck with your decisions!

[waterbottl]

4 minutes ago, convertedlurker said:

I don't want to create suspicion or cast doubt on anyone but be weary of accounts that have been created very recently and seem very invested in your school choice.

As per advice I saw from another post on a Western thread, put more weight on the advice given by loved ones and people you personally know that have your best interest in mind. 

I'm sure we're all great people with good intentions but this is a high stakes game so take all advice with a grain of salt.

Good luck with your decisions!

This is a fair criticism and I understand why people might think so. I don't fault anyone for thinking this. However, despite this possibility, I do invite anyone those skeptical and anxious alike to challenge the points I have posted  

But again, I completely understand this. It is a scary time for everyone, so always be cautious! 

[rmorelan]

On 5/15/2020 at 8:40 PM, waterbottl said:

This is a fair criticism and I understand why people might think so. I don't fault anyone for thinking this. However, despite this possibility, I do invite anyone those skeptical and anxious alike to challenge the points I have posted  

But again, I completely understand this. It is a scary time for everyone, so always be cautious! 

I suppose the obvious counter point is that the impact of COVID should be short lived, and in particular anatomy teaching will be compromised at every school currently. Mac may have challenges in particular adapting to this usual situation, and those challenges may even be more than other schools, but shouldn't those be over with (hopefully) by the fall anyway? Are we so sure the entire school will be basically shut down going forward for an extended duration? 

Edited May 18, 2020 by rmorelan

[waterbottl]

34 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

I suppose the obvious counter point is that the impact of COVID should be short lived, and in particular anatomy teaching will be compromised at every school currently. Mac may have challenges in particular adapting to this usual situation, and those challenges may even be more than other schools, but should those be over with (hopefully) by the fall anyway? Are we so sure the entire school will be basically shut down going forward for an extended duration? 

It's a fair point that anatomy will be affected everywhere. That being said, my point was that the anatomy curriculum was already weak to begin with, and will now likely suffer more for those interested in surgery, at least. 

In response to the impact of COVID, I am skeptical that its impact will be short lived. This is likely not true at all. Perhaps schools may resume in the fall at some point, but even so, clinical activities will certainly not start up any time soon, especially for the first years. Even the clerkship curriculum is being planned to have some online components, with return to activity in the future being slowly introduced. That means that those who do not have sufficient training or the clearance (e.g., first-years) will be unlikely to enter any sort of clinical setting. 

The impact of COVID, as has been discussed in several Town Halls, is likely to carry on forward for a long time. That is not to say schools be with shut down for that same amount of time, but the opportunities will definitely be limited.

[rmorelan]

3 minutes ago, waterbottl said:

It's a fair point that anatomy will be affected everywhere. That being said, my point was that the anatomy curriculum was already weak to begin with, and will now likely suffer more for those interested in surgery, at least. 

In response to the impact of COVID, I am skeptical that its impact will be short lived. This is likely not true at all. Perhaps schools may resume in the fall at some point, but even so, clinical activities will certainly not start up any time soon, especially for the first years. Even the clerkship curriculum is being planned to have some online components, with return to activity in the future being slowly introduced. That means that those who do not have sufficient training or the clearance (e.g., first-years) will be unlikely to enter any sort of clinical setting. 

The impact of COVID, as has been discussed in several Town Halls, is likely to carry on forward for a long time. That is not to say schools be with shut down for that same amount of time, but the opportunities will definitely be limited.

Fair points - I am dragging out the assumptions of course. I would say that Mac's anatomy teaching may be weaker (let's take that as a given for a sec) but the other schools were very dependent on anatomy lab access. They don't have online materials at all for its teaching as they don't work that way - the primary technique for learning it was the lab itself. That has been removed. Basically it is a bad time to want to be surgeon or radiologist ha. 

Similarly clinical opportunities would likely be limited at other schools as well (Mac may be more impacted - with less time for the total program there is less time to recover from anything). 

and we don't know exactly where this will go that is true - it is possible it will stretch out quite some time. If so it would hopefully with greater time, and greater experience the schools can also adapt - we are all seeing right now the desperate moves of people doing something never done before. It is hard to switch - I am at Harvard right now that basically has unlimited resources and even they are having an extremely hard time putting a program together for remote study in such a short time. I do have faith that they will find a way - we usually do!

[waterbottl]

14 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

Fair points - I am dragging out the assumptions of course. I would say that Mac's anatomy teaching may be weaker (let's take that as a given for a sec) but the other schools were very dependent on anatomy lab access. They don't have online materials at all for its teaching as they don't work that way - the primary technique for learning it was the lab itself. That has been removed. Basically it is a bad time to want to be surgeon or radiologist ha. 

Similarly clinical opportunities would likely be limited at other schools as well (Mac may be more impacted - with less time for the total program there is less time to recover from anything). 

and we don't know exactly where this will go that is true - it is possible it will stretch out quite some time. If so it would hopefully with greater time, and greater experience the schools can also adapt - we are all seeing right now the desperate moves of people doing something never done before. It is hard to switch - I am at Harvard right now that basically has unlimited resources and even they are having an extremely hard time putting a program together for remote study in such a short time. I do have faith that they will find a way - we usually do!

Also fair point about the anatomy access. I suppose another problem would be the inability to access anatomy resources prior to clerkship, whereas other schools may be able to make up for the lack of curriculum in the 2nd year of preclerkship. Same thing with clinical opportunities. 

But I agree - let's hope every school finds a way to fix this Thanks for the polite discourse. 

[i_saw_things_i_imagined]

(Edit: sorry if this is absolutely the wrong place to comment this but I saw people were upset and wanted to help in anyway I could. Feel free to move it elsewhere!)

 

Hi everyone, congrats to everyone who was admitted to Mac Med this year! I’m a first year PA student at Mac, and wanted to chip in some ways that we have made online PBL more engaging. Although we’re in different programs, I imagine the content in first year is virtually the same and these general tips should still apply: 

1. If you are using Google Hangouts for your call, make sure you use the “Tiled” layout (which lets you see up to 16 people) because it will emulate an IRL tutorial where you can see all of your peers faces. This is also helpful as body language is really important in tutorial because people will posture/position themselves when they want to say something next. Being able to see everyone is ideal, but for when this is not working, you can also download the chrome extension called “Nod” which allows you to use emojis to raise your hand if you want to speak, and others that express agreement/ditto someone’s point to prevent people repeating things. 

 

If you are using Zoom, use the annotation feature if you want to mark up documents (ie putting up an anatomical specimen and labelling it, pulling up a lab report/xray and marking pathological findings, etc). 

 

2. For each tutorial session, see if you can select one person who will play a “check-in” role. People in my group often times assume this role without being asked, and we find it incredibly useful for time management. So, for example, at the beginning of tutorial we might say “alright everyone today we are covering oncologic emergencies and have three cases to go through, how about we start now and go until 2:30 and see if we need a break. If we are running behind at 2:00 I’ll step in and say we should table any tangential discussion and return to the tutorial content. If there is at least half an hour left at the end we can do a practice case. I’ll do another check in at 3:00 to see if people want to entertain that idea.” Being very explicit and proactive in how you plan your three-ish hours online will be even more useful since you can’t see each other. 

 

3. If you are able to, have someone different each tutorial present their screen and have a google doc (we prefer using Microsoft word) running and typing the most important notes (plus any visuals, diagrams) down for everyone to see. A lot of people already do this, but having the visual component of being able to see what people are saying can help someone if they are lost, and also helps summarize things at the end of the tutorial for when people are studying later for tests.

 

4.  We often find ourselves finishing ahead of time, so if you have extra time at the end try and facilitate practice cases online. Usually we use half an hour to go through one. Someone will volunteer to act as the patient, and then we usually go around one by one (everyone asks one question) taking a history, asking for vitals/exam findings (if available), then we have a bigger discussion as a group what our differentials are, and then we order investigations and come up with a management plan. 

 

5. Always debrief! I have friends in the MD program and PA program who find debriefing at the end of tutorial kind of “fluffy” and not helpful. Every group I’ve been in has always emphasized debriefing at the end as a means of actively working towards changing something if it’s not working. We’re in a pretty steady groove now and I think it’s in part to having (and still having) an active debrief at the end where we can talk about what worked and what didn’t work. 

 

I don’t think any of these things are groundbreaking or new, rather things that people have always done in tutorial just emphasized more/adapted for an online format. With the right group you can emulate in person tutorial pretty closely online. If your group isn’t the most productive then try reaching out to administration for further tips/help that might be more specific to the MD program and curriculum.

Hope this helps!  Open to comments/DMs if you want to discuss general tips further, but I obviously can’t comment on anything specific to the MD program, admissions this year, and so on.

[Persephone]

Upper year students are scheduled to go back to clinical duties on July 6 and as we continue to get updates this tentative date is looking likely to hold up. No where in Canada will clinical activities look entirely the same as they did pre-COVID-19. Every school is going to have challenges due to COVID-19 and I don't agree that Mac's are any larger than any other school. I don't think traditional style lecture based learning affords any greater impact than PBL or AL-LGS during virtual learning either. The active learning virtual LGS's that are the most interactive are the ones I get the most out of personally and the ones that ignore this requirement (because not every lecturer for our virtual clerkship curriculum seems to be super into it) are the ones I feel the least engaged in and get the least learning out of. The only thing I will agree with is the weak anatomy at Mac, but we get tons of surgery matches every year just fine.

This forum is given to a lot of stigma against Mac that doesn't exist in the real world. Everywhere I go across the country I hear from preceptors and community members how lucky I am to go to Mac because it is "the best" medical school in Canada. I don't know if "the best" is accurate or even a useful category but I just want to dispel this notion that med students at McMaster are somehow more disadvantaged in the CaRMS process or even in the learning process than students at other schools. As always choose based on what makes the most sense to you, if you have the privilege of choice. If Mac was your only offer, congrats! You are going to become a doctor with a very high likelihood of matching to your first choice specialty!

[waterbottl]

36 minutes ago, Persephone said:

Upper year students are scheduled to go back to clinical duties on July 6 and as we continue to get updates this tentative date is looking likely to hold up. No where in Canada will clinical activities look entirely the same as they did pre-COVID-19. Every school is going to have challenges due to COVID-19 and I don't agree that Mac's are any larger than any other school. I don't think traditional style lecture based learning affords any greater impact than PBL or AL-LGS during virtual learning either. The active learning virtual LGS's that are the most interactive are the ones I get the most out of personally and the ones that ignore this requirement (because not every lecturer for our virtual clerkship curriculum seems to be super into it) are the ones I feel the least engaged in and get the least learning out of. The only thing I will agree with is the weak anatomy at Mac, but we get tons of surgery matches every year just fine.

This forum is given to a lot of stigma against Mac that doesn't exist in the real world. Everywhere I go across the country I hear from preceptors and community members how lucky I am to go to Mac because it is "the best" medical school in Canada. I don't know if "the best" is accurate or even a useful category but I just want to dispel this notion that med students at McMaster are somehow more disadvantaged in the CaRMS process or even in the learning process than students at other schools. As always choose based on what makes the most sense to you, if you have the privilege of choice. If Mac was your only offer, congrats! You are going to become a doctor with a very high likelihood of matching to your first choice specialty!

Thanks for sharing your opinion

No one (at least from the majority or arguments I've seen) is saying that Mac students will be at a disadvantage during CARMS applications. This has been proven to be untrue every year. I agree that preceptors are generally encouraged when they see Mac students and we generally perform very well on our rotations. Certainly lucky to be at Mac. 

Yet, while I agree that the medical school itself is no more impacted by COVID than other schools, I will disagree that students are not impacted more. The very fact that Mac (as well as every other 3 year school) is 3 years with a 1-year preclerkship is enough proof in and of itself that students will likely feel a greater impact. Clinical activities may resume slowly, but the opportunities for students who have 2 years of preclerkship versus 1 year of preclerkship are undeniably greater. Take for example if clinical activities for preclerks could resume in April 2020 (not a real date obviously). For most preclerks in Canada, this would be fine and would give them ample time to explore and narrow down career options. It would also give them plenty of exposure to clinical settings prior to clerkship. Yet, for the mac student, this timeline simply does not work. They would have likely been required to choose their clerkship streams already, and even if those do not matter in terms of your residency applications (i.e., which stream you choose), the opportunities to narrow down a career choice and gather experience in the clinical setting are drastically fewer. 

I will also disagree with the impact on PBL versus traditional learning, though this is almost definitely an opinion informed by my own, and friends', experiences. There is no doubt that PBL is much more difficult to approach online. Part of this may have to do with the unpreparedness to launch this online so hopefully Mac can learn and adapt, but the other part of it cannot be controlled: the fact that the primary means of learning is through engaging with uncertain resources, and sharing with group members and tutors who have equal difficulty being present or logging onto these platforms (yes it happens) ALL while being in an uncontrolled setting is reason enough to say that it is not the ideal PBL approach. Of course, we would hope that students learn to adapt and experience an equally effective PBL approach as they would in-person, but this unlikely given the short timeframe of preclerkship, it's rapid pace, and again, it's uncontrolled nature. 

If nothing else, can agree to disagree :) Obviously these are our own opinions and are equally valid in their own right.

[Dr.Strange]

1 hour ago, Persephone said:

Upper year students are scheduled to go back to clinical duties on July 6 and as we continue to get updates this tentative date is looking likely to hold up. No where in Canada will clinical activities look entirely the same as they did pre-COVID-19. Every school is going to have challenges due to COVID-19 and I don't agree that Mac's are any larger than any other school. I don't think traditional style lecture based learning affords any greater impact than PBL or AL-LGS during virtual learning either. The active learning virtual LGS's that are the most interactive are the ones I get the most out of personally and the ones that ignore this requirement (because not every lecturer for our virtual clerkship curriculum seems to be super into it) are the ones I feel the least engaged in and get the least learning out of. The only thing I will agree with is the weak anatomy at Mac, but we get tons of surgery matches every year just fine.

This forum is given to a lot of stigma against Mac that doesn't exist in the real world. Everywhere I go across the country I hear from preceptors and community members how lucky I am to go to Mac because it is "the best" medical school in Canada. I don't know if "the best" is accurate or even a useful category but I just want to dispel this notion that med students at McMaster are somehow more disadvantaged in the CaRMS process or even in the learning process than students at other schools. As always choose based on what makes the most sense to you, if you have the privilege of choice. If Mac was your only offer, congrats! You are going to become a doctor with a very high likelihood of matching to your first choice specialty!

I agree that Mac is a great school normally. The only thing I feel like you are missing is how COVID-19 is affecting. We don't get the oppurtunities to fall behind like other programs do. That's the whole point of a 3 year program.

As a school, Mac has sacrified break time in an effort to speed up the process but this does not allow for extenuating circumstances and COVID-19 is a major one. 

Other schools can be more flexible with more time. It's very simple. 

Lectures (LGSs) are meant to be interactive at Mac that's what makes them great, but that is very difficult to do online. Other schools can easily teach online because they teach most didactically. PBLs are also meant to be interactive and when people aren't in person it is very difficult to stay engaged because you don't have a common workspace like a whiteboard.  

[IronDuck]

Fair points, but for those of you who may not have a choice; don't be discouraged. There are some limitations to our curriculum, and PBL isn't for everyone (it's certainly not my cup of tea), but if you're driven enough (and most of you certainly are), you'll find a way to learn and study on your own. If you don't like your tutorials or aren't learning from interactive LGSs, there's nothing stopping you from getting your own resources and learning in a more traditional format--the self-directed curriculum leaves enough time for this. It may not be ideal, but just wanted to put it out there.