McMaster Medicine CARMS Data

[Aegean]

Lately, I have noticed a lot of negativity surrounding the McMaster Medicine program, almost as if it is the worst thing that could happen to get an offer from it. Most of these are either baseless rumours or wild speculations that aren't grounded in reality. COVID-19 will affect all schools. Claims that it will somehow affect Mac disproportionately are merely personal opinions and conjecture, not facts. For some actual data, take a look at the match data for the schools published by CARMS. For 2019, It shows the McMaster had 196 matched and only 6 unmatched which is one of the lowest unmatched numbers among the schools. In comparison, UofT had 13 unmatched which is more than twice as much, Western 8, Ottawa 4 and Queens 2 unmatched. As you can see, the Mac numbers are pretty comparable to the other schools and actually manages to beat most schools. So, whatever they are doing at Mac, it seems to be working out in time for CARMS matches which should be the main measure of medical school outcomes.

 

https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019_r1_tbl2e.pdf

[waterbottl]

I think this is a gross misrepresentation of what the majority of people have been saying and misleading in terms of how McMaster, and other 3-year programs, are affected in light of COVID-19. With some exception, there is almost no one arguing that COVID-19 will affect the prospects of a medical student at McMaster securing a residency position. No one is arguing that anyone's CARMS data and outlook will be impacted. Equally, no one is saying that McMaster's students are disproportionately affected (compared to other schools) in terms of their ability to match to residency. Yet, while all this may be true, these are all based on conjectures too. We have no clue about the downstream effects of COVID-19, so all these "hopeful" comments about CARMS and residency not being affected are also speculation. It is true that with the CARMS data, students at McMaster have never had a problem securing spots. And it likely will continue to be true throughout the pandemic. However, again, no one has been arguing against this. 

It seems as though people have misconstrued ideas as to what the "negative" posts have been trying to get across. I understand that there is skepticism surrounding many of the negative posts and them being posted by accounts of "waitlisters", and while this is a valid thought, it is not a valid argument against the points. The arguments being made against McMaster are solely based on its PBL philosophy and 3-year program, and how opportunities to explore and gain exposure are limited, which will ultimately have downstream effects on someone's education. 

[Aegean]

Ok, but those things are qualitive and subjective. For example, a 3-yr program could happen to be a pro for people who want to save an year. Also,  being at Hamilton for its proximity to Toronto is another subjective pro.

However, The objective and quantitative indices show no difference or disadvantage for the Mac program. I just wanted people to know this.

 

[waterbottl]

10 minutes ago, Aegean said:

Ok, but those things are qualitive and subjective. For example, a 3-yr program could happen to be a pro for people who want to save an year. Also,  being ar Hamilton for its proximity to Toronto is another subjective.

However, The objective and quantitative indices show no difference or disadvantage for the Mac program. I just wanted people to know this.

 

That's fair, but the objective indices are likely not truly representative of Mac's situation going into the future because all of the data is pre-covid, so I'm not sure we can exactly call it "objective". It is most certainly the best data we have, this much is true. But it is not entirely objective data.

As well, the arguments against Mac are not really subjective. It is quite objective to say that a 3-year program will be disproportionately impacted in terms of opportunities and clinical exposure than 4-year programs. It is most certainly qualitative - that is true, and yes, some people will have subjective preferences that skew their preferences towards Mac. But again, the fact that a 3-year program is affected more than a 4-year program is objective, and if not, no less objective than the CARMS data we have. 

[Dr.Strange]

Lol you haven't read the arguments. McMaster obviously has good match rates just like every other school in Canada. It is about extenuating circumstances under COVID-19 for career exploration. You are citing statistics under normal circumstances, that doesn't reflect the current pandemic. 

[bearded frog]

McMaster is objectively an excellent medical school. So is the University of Calgary. However the concerns about these schools relate to how covid will affect medical education for all schools, and may affect education of a student at a 3 year program relatively more than at a 4 year program.

[k123456]

 

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[waterbottl]

37 minutes ago, Markus said:

Carms match date is deceiving as most schools have similar rates. What really matters is the match to competitive specialities (not family medicine) such as dermatology, plastic surgery, neurology etc. 

 

At the end, a 3year compressed program will not provide the summers off for Mac students to do full time research over the summer monthst to keep up with those that graduate from uoft /Ottawa/western/queens.

Summary:   choose a 4 year program at uoft/Mac/western/queens instead of Mac so u get summers off to do full-time research to be competitive with other med students.

 

Probably somewhat misleading to say that. Mac students (including myself) have/had plenty of time to do research in the past, and with the time away from actual in-person classes, I imagine whatever difference may have existed is now offset. Obviously that doesn't take away from what drawbacks do exist...but this is not a good reason to discourage someone from going to Mac.

[bearded frog]

3 hours ago, Markus said:

Carms match date is deceiving as most schools have similar rates. What really matters is the match to competitive specialities (not family medicine) such as dermatology, plastic surgery, neurology etc.

Carms does not publish what specialities students from each school match to, so the closest we can approximate is https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019_r1_tbl16e.pdf which is percentage that match to their first choice specialty. In 2019 Mac had the 3rd highest 1st choice match rate in the country, after MUN and ottawa.

[Organomegaly]

On 5/22/2020 at 5:32 PM, bearded frog said:

Carms does not publish what specialities students from each school match to, so the closest we can approximate is https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019_r1_tbl16e.pdf which is percentage that match to their first choice specialty. In 2019 Mac had the 3rd highest 1st choice match rate in the country, after MUN and ottawa.

To be fair a higher proportion also choose less competitive specialties, and the highest proportion of students that chose family medicine 1st are from McMaster

 

https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/2019_r1_tbl38e.pdf

[bearded frog]

That list has mac 4th, and people certainly self select for mac, but its basically within 10% of all but 5 other schools, so it's clearly not that big of a factor.