Is being a doctor worth it?

[justdoingmybest]

3 minutes ago, offmychestplease said:

Don't forget that in the current climate, even finding a 60K engineering job is no easy feat. I know several under and unemployed engineering graduates. 

Exactly! Although this extends to pretty much any field right now...

[offmychestplease]

-

[gogogo]

26 minutes ago, burneraccount909 said:

And even if you read that engineers on average make about $70k per year, there's always that thing inside you that goes "oh yeah, but I won't be an average engineer." In reality, an average engineer is an extremely smart and competent person, so beating that person out for more high-paying roles is going to be incredibly difficult. And it's no guarantee that competency actually gets you a high-paying job. I knew many gifted engineers who worked in low-paying industries because they loved their work (or pigeon-holed themselves into the industry from an early age).

This is a huge point. I think many med students over-estimate how much their success academically and in the medical world would translate into success in other industries. In my class, I haven't met many people who I would classify as high in intelligence. They're smart people, for sure, but there are smart people in every industry. Moreover, amongst us non-trads, many of us were working in lower paying industries before. For example, I have someone in my class who was studying philosophy before med school and another who was in the culinary industry. Do you think these people would've found just as much success in philosophy or working in restaurants? No...they realized that some industries have much higher floors and switched.

Success in corporate is also very much down to luck and connections. In medicine, we have a few specialties that are similar in that they need connections and being the right "fit": ophthalmology and dermatology, for example. And guess what? 99% of med students don't go into those fields, and even among those who try, 50% fail. Except the people who fail to make it into these coveted specialties have a "soft landing" in FM or IM, which will get them 200k minimum. In corporate, if you fail to reach the upper echelons while competing withe everyone else all of the time, your soft landing is going back to your 60-120k job for 40-50 hours a week. We complain about match rates, but don't recognize that we have 95-99% of our cohorts matching every year into 200k+ jobs that are guaranteed for life with autonomy, prestige, impact (obviously, your experience will vary depending on which specialty you choose, but that's your choice). There is no other industry like this.

[offmychestplease]

-

[blah1234]

I think a lot of people in medicine would not have similar success in other fields. However, a lot of other people would do well in medicine and in other "prestige" fields. I don't want to downplay the benefits of medicine as there is huge value in a stable income that pays very well by any Canadian standards.

If I didn't leave my past profession and stayed there I would be further ahead financially than I am now as a specialist. This is primarily due to the compounding investments as well as accounting for the growth I would've seen in my job instead of spending in medical training. I'm not saying I'm the norm, far from it, but I do tell students that you won't do badly in medicine but don't do it for the money. There are other ways to make money besides becoming an MD and this job isn't worth it if you hate your life everyday. I work with way too many colleagues who are shackled to their job because they can't leave.

Also, while I did grind in my youth in my other profession it was magnitudes easier than residency in my opinion. Now there are chiller residencies for sure but I unfortunately I didn't choose one of them. As a staff I still do call on a semi-regular basis and it's still less tolerable than working the ~60-65 hours average I did at my previous profession. I really don't want the medical field to downplay the opportunities in other fields as it creates this unhealthy narrative that this job is the perfect one for everyone. We have it really good but you can do well in other fields and often not work as hard or be as stressed.

[TheStern]

On 7/9/2020 at 3:03 PM, offmychestplease said:

Also, if you guys are trying to compare the top medicine salaries to other fields....derm/plastic surgery/optho all can easily make 1M+ AFTER overhead in some provinces.. 

PS- that's how much you make in derm working 40hrs a week and can make more if you do cosmetics mostly or exclusively 

 

[offmychestplease]

-

[TheStern]

1 minute ago, offmychestplease said:

in AB, they do. 

Do you have a source on that? Which specifies net and not gross earnings

[offmychestplease]

-

[justdoingmybest]

1 hour ago, blah1234 said:

I think a lot of people in medicine would not have similar success in other fields. However, a lot of other people would do well in medicine and in other "prestige" fields. I don't want to downplay the benefits of medicine as there is huge value in a stable income that pays very well by any Canadian standards.

If I didn't leave my past profession and stayed there I would be further ahead financially than I am now as a specialist. This is primarily due to the compounding investments as well as accounting for the growth I would've seen in my job instead of spending in medical training. I'm not saying I'm the norm, far from it, but I do tell students that you won't do badly in medicine but don't do it for the money. There are other ways to make money besides becoming an MD and this job isn't worth it if you hate your life everyday. I work with way too many colleagues who are shackled to their job because they can't leave.

Also, while I did grind in my youth in my other profession it was magnitudes easier than residency in my opinion. Now there are chiller residencies for sure but I unfortunately I didn't choose one of them. As a staff I still do call on a semi-regular basis and it's still less tolerable than working the ~60-65 hours average I did at my previous profession. I really don't want the medical field to downplay the opportunities in other fields as it creates this unhealthy narrative that this job is the perfect one for everyone. We have it really good but you can do well in other fields and often not work as hard or be as stressed.

Agreed on the money thing! We tend to over-inflate the cushiness of medicine, when really it's an incredibly difficult journey to staff, and even when you get to being staff it is still time-intensive and stressful. The money thing is nice, but it's secondary to quality of life and if you don't absolutely love medicine, it's not worth it to chase the money doctors make.

In regards to other fields, I agree that we shouldn't prop medicine up on a pedestal, but I think it's important to look at everything else from a realistic lens as the comments in this thread have tried to do. Much of my network of contacts in engineering have pretty bleak career possibilities right now, and they weren't much better before the pandemic. Yes you can do "well" in other fields, but well in most fields is ~$100k per year. Nothing to be ashamed of at all, but it pales in comparison to what you can make in medicine. To add to this, for most people, the income you lose from the field that you would have been in during your medical training will be made up very quickly after you're done the training. You might have been further financially ahead had you stayed doing what you were doing, but the vast majority of medical students will make a lot more in medicine than they would have if they kept on in their previous lives. And to add to this too, to make the same kind of money you make in medicine in other fields, you often are working 60+ hour weeks and doing incredibly stressful management/executive roles. I don't know if I'd say the work is less stressful or hard, just different.

[blah1234]

7 minutes ago, burneraccount909 said:

Agreed on the money thing! We tend to over-inflate the cushiness of medicine, when really it's an incredibly difficult journey to staff, and even when you get to being staff it is still time-intensive and stressful. The money thing is nice, but it's secondary to quality of life and if you don't absolutely love medicine, it's not worth it to chase the money doctors make.

In regards to other fields, I agree that we shouldn't prop medicine up on a pedestal, but I think it's important to look at everything else from a realistic lens as the comments in this thread have tried to do. Much of my network of contacts in engineering has pretty bleak career possibilities right now, and they weren't much better before the pandemic. Yes you can do "well" in other fields, but well in most fields is ~$100k per year. Nothing to be ashamed of at all, but it pales in comparison to what you can make in medicine. To add to this, for most people, the income you lose from the field you would have been in during your medical training will be made up very quickly after you're done the training. You might have been further financially ahead had you stayed doing what you were doing, but the vast majority of medical students will make a lot more in medicine than they would have if they kept on in their previous lives.

I worked in business in a competitive role and I recognize that my colleagues and I were definitely in the minority (law, IB, consulting, etc.). I think many of them would've been good at medicine and many people in medicine would've been good at our jobs/liked our jobs. I know for a fact that all my friends are doing as well as I or better.

I 100% agree that most people in society will not reach the levels of medicine despite their long years of training. I just want to put it out there that medicine is also extremely competitive and the jobs my friends and I had and have now were no where near the difficulties needed to get into Canadian medical school. I honestly thinking getting into medicine in Canada is one of the hardest things to do to get onto a career path. The sheer lack of spots makes it so many qualified applicants don't make it through.

I actually think a substantial proportion of medical students have what it takes to succeed in these other fields. They have the work ethic, grit, and intelligence. However, I do think the majority did as well as they could to get into medicine.

[justdoingmybest]

37 minutes ago, blah1234 said:

I worked in business in a competitive role and I recognize that my colleagues and I were definitely in the minority (law, IB, consulting, etc.). I think many of them would've been good at medicine and many people in medicine would've been good at our jobs/liked our jobs. I know for a fact that all my friends are doing as well as I or better.

I 100% agree that most people in society will not reach the levels of medicine despite their long years of training. I just want to put it out there that medicine is also extremely competitive and the jobs my friends and I had and have now were no where near the difficulties needed to get into Canadian medical school. I honestly thinking getting into medicine in Canada is one of the hardest things to do to get onto a career path. The sheer lack of spots makes it so many qualified applicants don't make it through.

I think a substantial proportion of medical students have what it takes to succeed in these other fields. They have the work ethic, grit, and intelligence. However, I do think the majority did as well as they could to get into medicine.

I think we agree here, my only concern is that I don't want pre-meds to think your situation is the norm. I personally know a lot of people in those corporate type of roles as well, but they are far and away the exception to the rule. A lot of them also have terrible quality of life because of the amount of work, and type of work they do (getting up at 5 AM, living at the office working with numbers and talking on the phone all day, and then getting home at 9 PM). Medicine definitely isn't for everyone, but you do get to do amazing work, have job security pretty much as soon as you're accepted (match rates are still exceedingly higher than your chance at good jobs in any other field) and be paid well. It's really hard to find a career that beats it, even in the upper echelons of other industries.

[gogogo]

17 minutes ago, blah1234 said:

I worked in business in a competitive role and I recognize that my colleagues and I were definitely in the minority (law, IB, consulting, etc.). I think many of them would've been good at medicine and many people in medicine would've been good at our jobs/liked our jobs. I know for a fact that all my friends are doing as well as I or better.

I 100% agree that most people in society will not reach the levels of medicine despite their long years of training. I just want to put it out there that medicine is also extremely competitive and the jobs my friends and I had and have now were no where near the difficulties needed to get into Canadian medical school. I honestly thinking getting into medicine in Canada is one of the hardest things to do to get onto a career path. The sheer lack of spots makes it so many qualified applicants don't make it through.

I actually think a substantial proportion of medical students have what it takes to succeed in these other fields. They have the work ethic, grit, and intelligence. However, I do think the majority did as well as they could to get into medicine.

I agree there are definitely paths to success in all industries. The difference with medicine is that it's all laid out for you. Get these grades, do these tests, etc. and you can move onto the next step of med school. Then in med school, it's another list of things to do, and then onto the next step. If you want a career that provides that level of certainty in reaching upper middle class or higher, I think medicine is the safest bet. Of course, you have to enjoy it and find it meaningful or none of this will be worth it to you.

Other industries can reward people with the right mix of intelligence, hard work, luck, and networking. If you don't mind, can you share what your friends do and make and what they lives are like?

[blah1234]

35 minutes ago, burneraccount909 said:

I think we agree here, my only concern is that I don't want pre-meds to think your situation is the norm. I personally know a lot of people in those corporate type of roles as well, but they are far and away the exception to the rule. A lot of them also have terrible quality of life because of the amount of work, and type of work they do (getting up at 5 AM, living at the office working with numbers and talking on the phone all day, and then getting home at 9 PM). Medicine definitely isn't for everyone, but you do get to do amazing work, have job security and be paid well. It's really hard to find a career that beats it, even in the upper echelons of other industries.

Yea I think are. I just want pre-meds who are exceptional in more ways than medicine to understand you can do well in other fields.

[blah1234]

50 minutes ago, gogogo said:

I agree there are definitely paths to success in all industries. The difference with medicine is that it's all laid out for you. Get these grades, do these tests, etc. and you can move onto the next step of med school. Then in med school, it's another list of things to do, and then onto the next step. If you want a career that provides that level of certainty in reaching upper middle class or higher, I think medicine is the safest bet. Of course, you have to enjoy it and find it meaningful or none of this will be worth it to you.

Other industries can reward people with the right mix of intelligence, hard work, luck, and networking. If you don't mind, can you share what your friends do and make and what they lives are like?

The big thing in medicine is the escalator like you mentioned. You need a luck in other industries but we still need some amount in medicine. Getting into medical school requires a certain type of luck all by itself.

I don't want to comment too specifically as I don't want to be doxxed but here is a small sample. Generally speaking I have close friends who:

1) Big Tech in California (they 100% make more than me even before currency conversion and work ~40-45 hours a week. Our partners talk so I know this is true haha). They just climbed naturally and with their stock refreshes it has been a good deal.
2) Big Law (also they do better than me but they work pretty hard).
3) Corporate senior management (comparable to me and some work hard and some have pretty cushy gigs i.e. 9-5)

4) Finance (these guys make way more but also work more than me but probably less than surgeons)

 

[offmychestplease]

-

[blah1234]

29 minutes ago, offmychestplease said:

nice you know several people in the top <1% of their fields. Comparisons and generalizations like this should not be made when the average person in these fields make no where near an average doctor.

Are MDs not the top <1% of healthcare professionals? Compared to nurses, OT/PTs, perfusionists etc.? We are quite successful and rare ourselves. Don't think we should be comparing average workers to average doctors when doctors are not "average".

[justdoingmybest]

1 hour ago, blah1234 said:

Are MDs not the top <1% of healthcare professionals? Compared to nurses, OT/PTs, perfusionists etc.? We are quite successful and rare ourselves. Don't think we should be comparing average workers to average doctors when doctors are not "average".

^ Something to think about for sure! Don't know if we can lump all healthcare professionals in with us as many don't aspire to medicine when they start out. If they all did, some of us wouldn't be here. 

A more apt comparison might be that we're the top ~10% of pre-meds? It's less about who is in your field really, and more who you're competing with for jobs. That's about the national acceptance rate if I recall correctly, and pre-meds are the ones who actually try to become doctors. Do the top 10% in any other "field" have all (or any) of the career benefits that medicine has? I wouldn't say so

[blah1234]

35 minutes ago, burneraccount909 said:

^ Something to think about for sure! Don't know if we can lump all healthcare professionals in with us as many don't aspire to medicine when they start out. If they all did, some of us wouldn't be here. 

A more apt comparison might be that we're the top ~10% of pre-meds? It's less about who is in your field really, and more who you're competing with for jobs. That's about the national acceptance rate if I recall correctly, and pre-meds are the ones who actually try to become doctors. Do the top 10% in any other "field" have all (or any) of the career benefits that medicine has? I wouldn't say so

I think there's also the notion that many people self select out of medicine because they know they can't compete so is the applicant pool % truly reflective? I don't know to be honest. I can get on board with the fact that the top 10% of premeds make into medicine and do well. I think about the top 10% of Ivey or Queens Commerce or other top business program and I think all those people all do pretty well in the business world based on my personal alumni tracking.

I think rather than looking into the funnel prospectively I'm looking retrospectively at the people who are MDs. I think a good portion of them (not all or even the majority) could've been successful elsewhere.

There are a lot of "less prestigious" jobs out there that let people live comparable lives to average FM or lower billing specialists. That's not even including the complaining we get about nurse practitioners or other stable healthcare workers that we know about on this forum. I recognize we have the higher bound out there in some sub-specialties but I think we are going to be comparing those outliers you are looking at the top of other prestige jobs as well which are often comparable.

I'm not trying to say everyone can attain this. I'm just saying think about how hard it is to get into medicine and how hard many of us have to work through the training. If you apply the same amount of effort and grit into many other jobs you can get far. It's not going to be every job or field but there are others out there that reward your time and effort. As mentioned earlier I think the advantage to medicine is the extremely linear path upwards. The road is defined for you for the most part. Other fields do not have that level of certainty but it's not that bad from my experiences or observations.

[justdoingmybest]

22 minutes ago, blah1234 said:

I think there's also the notion that many people self select out of medicine because they know they can't compete so is the applicant pool % truly reflective? I don't know to be honest. I can get on board with the fact that the top 10% of premeds make into medicine and do well. I think about the top 10% of Ivey or Queens Commerce or other top business program and I think all those people all do pretty well in the business world based on my personal alumni tracking.

I think rather than looking into the funnel prospectively I'm looking retrospectively at the people who are MDs. I think a good portion of them (not all or even the majority) could've been successful elsewhere.

There are a lot of "less prestigious" jobs out there that let people live comparable lives to average FM or lower billing specialists. That's not even including the complaining we get about nurse practitioners or other stable healthcare workers that we know about on this forum. I recognize we have the higher bound out there in some sub-specialties but I think we are going to be comparing those outliers you are looking at the top of other prestige jobs as well which are often comparable.

I'm not trying to say everyone can attain this. I'm just saying think about how hard it is to get into medicine and how hard many of us have to work through the training. If you apply the same amount of effort and grit into many other jobs you can get far. It's not going to be every job or field but there are others out there that reward your time and effort. As mentioned earlier I think the advantage to medicine is the extremely linear path upwards. The road is defined for you for the most part. Other fields do not have that level of certainty but it's not that bad from my experiences or observations.

I'd give you a like if I had any left to give for today! You hit on some good points for sure - the 10% is definitely a simplification on my part but even if it's 2% I think the argument still holds. I don't know if I would say there are a lot of jobs that compare to average FM/low-billing specialists unless we're well into the top 1% of most other fields, which in my mind isn't really the argument. And we'll have to agree to disagree on the level of uncertainty that most other fields have when it comes to reaching that upper tier. If I'm being honest, my experiences tell me it's not as bad as well, but I come from a fairly privileged background so I know that's not the case for all.

Thank you for the conversation though! Was interesting to talk about!

[blah1234]

2 minutes ago, burneraccount909 said:

I'd give you a like if I had any left to give for today! You hit on some good points for sure - the 10% is definitely a simplification on my part but even if it's 2% I think the argument still holds. I don't know if I would say there are a lot of jobs that compare to average FM/low-billing specialists unless we're well into the top 1% of most other fields, which in my mind isn't really the argument. And we'll have to agree to disagree on the level of uncertainty that most other fields have when it comes to reaching that upper tier. If I'm being honest, my experiences tell me it's not as bad as well, but I come from a fairly privileged background so I know that's not the case for all.

Thank you for the conversation though! Was interesting to talk about!

You're right we shouldn't discount the level of privilege some of us have.  It's difficult to quantify but it's there.

Also I use "a lot" and that can mean different things to different people. All I mean as it's not just the typical medicine, dentistry, law, etc.

[innocentius]

I think going to UWaterloo or a top tech school in the U.S. like M.I.T/Ivy League for Comp Sci/ Soft Eng and getting a job in SV/Seattle after graduating with FAANG is far better in terms of pay than Medicine. Fresh grads  start at 200k+ USD at like 22 or 23 and salary keeps going up. In tech, the sky is the limit in terms of what you can achieve as you progress in your career.  IMO, tech >>>medicine, but too late for me anyways ..

[justdoingmybest]

30 minutes ago, innocentius said:

I think going to UWaterloo or a top tech school in the U.S. like M.I.T/Ivy League for Comp Sci/ Soft Eng and getting a job in SV/Seattle after graduating with FAANG is far better in terms of pay than Medicine. Fresh grads  start at 200k+ USD at like 22 or 23 and salary keeps going up. In tech, the sky is the limit in terms of what you can achieve as you progress in your career.  IMO, tech >>>medicine, but too late for me anyways ..

That's a common belief but isn't true. Take a look at this link: https://www.payscale.com/data/tech-industry-salaries. Average start, while awesome, is still only ~$110k at the big 3 social media companies (Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn). There might be a few people making $200k right out of high school, but again that's the top 1% of the 1% considering how hard it is to land a job in a big Silicon Valley tech company and even harder to excel once you're there (much much harder than getting into medicine). And mid-career numbers don't increase like you think they might (Twitter has a $157k median mid-career salary). Not saying any of that is bad money, but you won't strike it rich unless you're both extremely fortunate and extremely skilled. And if you think those companies don't work their employees into the ground, think again. Quality of life would be less than optimal for those very high earners.

Again, the vast majority of those who try to go into tech, or any industry other than med, will be making <$80k per year well into their careers.

[innocentius]

 

10 minutes ago, burneraccount909 said:

That's a common belief but isn't true. Take a look at this link: https://www.payscale.com/data/tech-industry-salaries. Average start, while awesome, is still only ~$110k at the big 3 social media companies (Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn). There might be a few people making $200k right out of high school, but again that's the top 1% of the 1% considering how hard it is to land a job in a big Silicon Valley tech company and even harder to excel once you're there (much much harder than getting into medicine). And mid-career numbers don't increase like you think they might (Twitter has a $157k median mid-career salary). Not saying any of that is bad money, but you won't strike it rich unless you're both extremely fortunate and extremely skilled. And if you think those companies don't work their employees into the ground, think again. Quality of life would be less than optimal for those very high earners.

Again, the vast majority of those who try to go into tech, or any industry other than med, will be making <$80k per year well into their careers.

Go to this thread. to get an idea of typical new grad tech salaries in SV.. 

 

[offmychestplease]

-