Seriously, we need a revolution

[yesandno]

So, I was thinking about how the med schools are trying to accommodate students during this COVID-19 and every single med.school failed, they did something that is extremely non-accommodating, at least to me. Take the winter grades fiasco, for example, I aced the winter semester. If someone did not or received pass/fail, why should I suffer? Why do med school go to the lowest common denominator and think first of those who did not receive a grade or "could not adjust in a timely manner"? This last one is such a huge BS, we live in the 21st century, everyone has internet, a computer and a smartphone, so spare me these pathetic excuses about "could not adjust".

UofT is the biggest fail of all. They simply prevented a tremendous number of low SES students from competing. They probably thought that they didn't need all these rabbles, so they just changed the wGPA calculations. And of course, they painted it as diversity and inclusion. It screams BS and hypocrisy. What's most maddening is that they expect premeds to believe them, smile and play along. 

Right now, med schools look so terrible to me. They make things worse, they are not flexible, they are definitely not inclusive. None of the higher-ups of Canadian schools deserve to occupy their positions. Seriously, we need a revolution. All these MarieAntoinettes need to be exiled and replaced with real people who understand what premeds need.

[medicallyricalmiracle]

can't think of an opinion i disagree with more tbh.

1. Schools didn't exclude winter2020 grades for people that failed, they did it because it was an outlier. Many people thrived off of cancellations and empathetic professors and had their "first 4.0 semester". This high achievement is attributable to the pandemic and thus, is not a fair data point for peoples' performance. Thus, the most fair approach is to ignore it.

2. Please do not assume you have the competence or experience to occupy high-ranking academic positions in faculties of medicine that have been around longer than many COUNTRIES. I am Black, grew up quite poor and had no mentors or role models through my journey. I still pushed myself through every obstacle required to get into medical schools. I didn't complain, and still don't. Why? Because there are thousands of students who would kill for the chance to be in my position. You think premeds won't happily put themselves through the application process regardless of recent changes?

The only revolution that needs to happen is with your attitude.

 

 

[garceyues]

.

[garceyues]

46 minutes ago, yesandno said:

So, I was thinking about how the med schools are trying to accommodate students during this COVID-19 and every single med.school failed, they did something that is extremely non-accommodating, at least to me. Take the winter grades fiasco, for example, I aced the winter semester. If someone did not or received pass/fail, why should I suffer? Why do med school go to the lowest common denominator and think first of those who did not receive a grade or "could not adjust in a timely manner"? This last one is such a huge BS, we live in the 21st century, everyone has internet, a computer and a smartphone, so spare me these pathetic excuses about "could not adjust".

UofT is the biggest fail of all. They simply prevented a tremendous number of low SES students from competing. They probably thought that they didn't need all these rabbles, so they just changed the wGPA calculations. And of course, they painted it as diversity and inclusion. It screams BS and hypocrisy. What's most maddening is that they expect premeds to believe them, smile and play along. 

Right now, med schools look so terrible to me. They make things worse, they are not flexible, they are definitely not inclusive. None of the higher-ups of Canadian schools deserve to occupy their positions. Seriously, we need a revolution. All these MarieAntoinettes need to be exiled and replaced with real people who understand what premeds need.

I can't say I agree with your assessment. I wasn't even in the crowd that wanted winter 2020 to be discounted, but to say that everyone could adjust equally just isn't true. There are so many pandemic induced factors we could sit here and brainstorm that would result in different outcomes for some far beyond normal circumstances. Some of my acquaintances that come to mind include those that had their living or financial situation drastically upended. Try to be more considerate of others circumstances, especially if you want to enter medical school/some health profession. 

I agree that recent changes outside of winter 2020 have not been conducive to students who may have faced barriers to success or have struggled to adapt initially. U of T and UBC come to mind (UBC's new changes blow my mind), but I don't think Ottawa's changes were particularly unfair. 

I am not sure how you can generalize all Canadian medical schools and the admin/faculty therein. I am a huge fan of U of Cs transparency and open communication, and they have truly gone above and beyond to fairly compensate students during these unprecedented times. The end of your post leads me to think that you are a troll- do you legitimately believe that you know what is best for MD programs and admissions processes as a "premed?" A revolution in this context sounds incredibly entitled and out of touch with reality. We enter medicine to serve patients, communities, society etc. MD admissions committees ultimately exist to select future doctors to meet those ends. They do not exist to serve premeds. Please try to think more critically and from a broader perspective.

[MedicineLCS]

1 hour ago, yesandno said:

So, I was thinking about how the med schools are trying to accommodate students during this COVID-19 and every single med.school failed.

Considering that school responses varied from including the grades to not including then I find this hard to believe. 

1 hour ago, yesandno said:

they did something that is extremely non-accommodating, at least to me. Take the winter grades fiasco, for example, I aced the winter semester. If someone did not or received pass/fail, why should I suffer? Why do med school go to the lowest common denominator and think first of those who did not receive a grade or "could not adjust in a timely manner"? This last one is such a huge BS

I'm sorry to hear that you lost a good semester but I don't think this allows you to pass judgment on other people. I see too much focus on you in this paragraph and not enough recognition of how other people may have suffered. Someone who lost their optimal study space, their social support net, their job, or even in some cases family members (at least to hospital) was impacted. Everyone seems to lose sight of what grades are for, showing you can do well over time with other things going on in life. Corona wrecked this comparison since it is the example of a black swan event. This loss of predictive power+disparate impacts on people is a strong reason to ignore it. 

1 hour ago, yesandno said:

UofT is the biggest fail of all. They simply prevented a tremendous number of low SES students from competing. They probably thought that they didn't need all these rabbles, so they just changed the wGPA calculations. And of course, they painted it as diversity and inclusion. It screams BS and hypocrisy. What's most maddening is that they expect premeds to believe them, smile and play along. .

With all the work schools are doing to address their SES blindspot do you seriously believe schools are moving in the opposite purposely to "keep the rabble out?" We can debate if this change is good or bad (I'm not a fan) but it's hardly designed to keep people out.

1 hour ago, yesandno said:

Right now, med schools look so terrible to me. They make things worse, they are not flexible, they are definitely not inclusive. None of the higher-ups of Canadian schools deserve to occupy their positions. Seriously, we need a revolution. All these MarieAntoinettes need to be exiled and replaced with real people who understand what premeds need.

This reeks of entitlement. Any schools number one priority is selecting the best possible class that will serve Canadians effectively. "Premed needs" are not, and should not, be their main concern. Even then, they made their changes for Winter 2020 expressively to accommodate all the different people impacted in different ways and give them as fair an assessment as possible, given the circumstances and each school's policies. Sure, some decisions look better than others, but they're trying. How would you feel of your undergrad school forced P/F on you and schools refused to accommodate you? Or if schools counted grades you obtained while stuck in a busy home environment while cheating classmates wrecked the curve? All things considered, schools do a decent job providing information to applicants and explaining the process (some better than others) while still cloaking it in some secrecy to prevent people from figuring out how to blatantly play the system. It's not perfect but it will never be perfect. 

Here's my favourite thought exercise when everyone complains about how unfair this is (to them). Consider this entire scenario as an MMI prompt and see how your answers change. I can understand being upset, you have a right to be annoyed that changes impacted you, but that doesn't discount how others were impacted in adverse fashions or how the utility of using that semester flew out the window.

 

[PequalsMD]

Deleted

[OMGsoNERVOUS]

1 hour ago, yesandno said:

So, I was thinking about how the med schools are trying to accommodate students during this COVID-19 and every single med.school failed, they did something that is extremely non-accommodating, at least to me. Take the winter grades fiasco, for example, I aced the winter semester. If someone did not or received pass/fail, why should I suffer? Why do med school go to the lowest common denominator and think first of those who did not receive a grade or "could not adjust in a timely manner"? This last one is such a huge BS, we live in the 21st century, everyone has internet, a computer and a smartphone, so spare me these pathetic excuses about "could not adjust".

UofT is the biggest fail of all. They simply prevented a tremendous number of low SES students from competing. They probably thought that they didn't need all these rabbles, so they just changed the wGPA calculations. And of course, they painted it as diversity and inclusion. It screams BS and hypocrisy. What's most maddening is that they expect premeds to believe them, smile and play along. 

Right now, med schools look so terrible to me. They make things worse, they are not flexible, they are definitely not inclusive. None of the higher-ups of Canadian schools deserve to occupy their positions. Seriously, we need a revolution. All these MarieAntoinettes need to be exiled and replaced with real people who understand what premeds need.

the amount of anger and naivety in this post is astronomical 

[yesandno]

Whoever thinks that I propose myself to occupy the med school admin positions, I don't understand how you guys finished your CARS because my post does not suggest that.

"Someone who lost their optimal study space, their social support net, their job" - I get it but why do their cases win over mine? Why these people are to be accommodated and thought of and the people who did great in the winter are not? The universities themselves implemented PLENTY of measures to finish the winter as fair as possible, so the additional measures by med. schools simply do a 180-degree flip negating everything that universities have done.

In one of my classes, instead of the multiple-choice final, we were given 3 hours to write several essays. It was effing hard and there was not a chance to cheat, I did great and why on earth is it fair to ignore this mark now? Moreover, it is my most valuable and well-deserved mark.

As to UofT, I truly believe they simply decided to keep the poor out. If you pay attention to what's going on in the world, it's a huge inconvenience to have lower-class ppl in your midst because they demand more. They ( and all Canadian schools) already do that by establishing astronomically high fees. It takes on average $300 per school per application. How is this serving the poor?

Yes, my post is bitter, very much so, because I see the flaws of the admission process, the hypocrisy of the schools, their rigidness and, frankly, malice, and there's nothing I can do.

I think med. schools need to be way more flexible with premeds.

[pixieMD]

***

 

[takasugi]

Your just mad you didn't get in.

[yesandno]

"I'm almost 100% sure that it's not going to fly at the interviews", you are funny, man, if you think that I am going to say anything like that on the interviews or CASPer then you don't know life and maybe it's you who should postpone your application to grow up.

"You might consider CASPer to be bs, but at least people who succeed in it know to look at multiple perspectives of a situation", yeah yeah I know all about that multiple perspective bs. I am not going to argue the ineffectiveness of CASPer here, my post is not about that.

My post is about how med.schools are detached from what premeds are going through. The admins are so out of touch with the public, they lost the perspective. The admins need real people to correct the admission process and make it more premed oriented, more individualized, more open-minded and eventually more inclusive.

On the example of winter grades, med.schools should be flexible and consider every situation individually. I got grades, someone else got pass/fail, evaluate our situations individually. Accommodating the pass/fail people should not be more important, than accommodating the students who got grades.

“Your just mad you didn't get in”, even if it’s true, so what? Am I supposed to be ashamed of being mad?

P.S.: I am not here for you to evaluate my character and give me your useless advice, thank you. If you don’t want to contribute to the topic, stop flooding with personality characterizations, I am not interested.

[bearded frog]

12 hours ago, yesandno said:

So, I was thinking about how the med schools are trying to accommodate students during this COVID-19 and every single med.school failed, they did something that is extremely non-accommodating, at least to me. Take the winter grades fiasco, for example, I aced the winter semester. If someone did not or received pass/fail, why should I suffer? Why do med school go to the lowest common denominator and think first of those who did not receive a grade or "could not adjust in a timely manner"? This last one is such a huge BS, we live in the 21st century, everyone has internet, a computer and a smartphone, so spare me these pathetic excuses about "could not adjust".

UofT is the biggest fail of all. They simply prevented a tremendous number of low SES students from competing. They probably thought that they didn't need all these rabbles, so they just changed the wGPA calculations. And of course, they painted it as diversity and inclusion. It screams BS and hypocrisy. What's most maddening is that they expect premeds to believe them, smile and play along. 

Right now, med schools look so terrible to me. They make things worse, they are not flexible, they are definitely not inclusive. None of the higher-ups of Canadian schools deserve to occupy their positions. Seriously, we need a revolution. All these MarieAntoinettes need to be exiled and replaced with real people who understand what premeds need.

lmao

[PequalsMD]

Deleted

[Remyelination]

I go to McGill, and in the Faculty of Science we had 72 hours to complete all finals. Some of the profs just gave us the 3 hour MC exam we were going to have anyways; the average must have been over 95% (this is a class with a usual B/B- average). If you legitimately had a 4.0 for the first time this past semester that sucks, but let's not pretend that there aren't numerous variables at play other than students "not being able to adapt". There's most likely a bimodal distribution between those who took advantage of all the accommodations and those who were legitimately affected by the pandemic. 

[MedicineLCS]

11 hours ago, yesandno said:

Whoever thinks that I propose myself to occupy the med school admin positions, I don't understand how you guys finished your CARS because my post does not suggest that.

It's probably best not to directly insult people. 

11 hours ago, yesandno said:

"Someone who lost their optimal study space, their social support net, their job" - I get it but why do their cases win over mine? Why these people are to be accommodated and thought of and the people who did great in the winter are not? The universities themselves implemented PLENTY of measures to finish the winter as fair as possible, so the additional measures by med. schools simply do a 180-degree flip negating everything that universities have done.

In one of my classes, instead of the multiple-choice final, we were given 3 hours to write several essays. It was effing hard and there was not a chance to cheat, I did great and why on earth is it fair to ignore this mark now? Moreover, it is my most valuable and well-deserved mark.

I can tell you right now why their case matters more (to me). You did well, presumably this isn't too different than normal. I'm not going to presume you weren't affected in a similar way (lost study spaces/support), maybe you were and overcame it, in which case, congratulations on overcoming adversity. Now let's look at the other person, they entered into what is a horrible situation, they're working towards the same goal as you, but they drew a significantly worse lot. Maybe being cutoff from friends and confined to home made them feel depressed or anxious (Stressed at the least), Kids Help Phone usage has soared over the last couple months. Now, if schools prioritized your type of applicant (who did well) you're only making their situation worse. Why should one semester, during a once in a century (hopefully) pandemic crater their cGPA, knocking out a bunch of schools? That's the equivalent of kicking someone who's already been knocked down. Instead of treating the people who managed to make it through Winter 2020 standing and those who were knocked down, for whatever reason, differently, an incredibly difficult task to adjudicate if they tried, most schools made the call to simply recognize that the semester really isn't worth a whole lot in the grand scheme of things since how are they suppossed to use GPA, already a fraught comparison tool, when so many schools handled things so differently, and so many people faced different scenarios. As far as the measures universities implemented some were good, but none of them went anywhere near making the semester fair or dealing with the trauma this kind of a change causes. 

You expressed concern about the UofT trying to "keep the rabble out". Assuming "rabble" means low SES, who do you think takes the bigger hit in Winter 2020? Higher SES students who can return to (larger) parental homes, have monetary support, don't need to worry about money at all/as much, or low SES students? 

I'm glad your university made it harder to cheat. Mine sure didn't. In one class midterm averages went from ~65% pre-COVID to 78% post-COVID. The prof in that class also gave everyone 100% on attendance, if it was a curved class class this would have completely wrecked the curve. These kinds of different responses make comparing grades a shot in the dark. This is also missing all the people who had no choice in going to P/F. 

1 hour ago, yesandno said:

The admins need real people to correct the admission process and make it more premed oriented, more individualized, more open-minded and eventually more inclusive.

On the example of winter grades, med.schools should be flexible and consider every situation individually. I got grades, someone else got pass/fail, evaluate our situations individually. Accommodating the pass/fail people should not be more important, than accommodating the students who got grades.

Earlier you complained about application fees, now you want people (some of them would need to be paid presumably) to pore over potentially 5,000 applications to determine each situation individually? The amount of time and money this would take is astronomical. And again, you haven't made a strong argument for why your grades are more important than someone who was involuntarily given P/F or chose it themselves. 

I can understand being frustrated by the process, it does weird things sometimes and the loss of control when you hit the "submit" button doesn't feel great, but there is no perfect process. All things considered the process is substantially more transparent than many other processes surrounding us. In the business world, for instance, personal connections and networking (which are even more vulnerable to influence than grades/test scores) matter significantly more. In the end, there will always be winners and losers in what is a zero-sum game, and it's impossible to accommodate everyone. When I hear people complaining and suggesting "improvements" what they often seem to mean is "Make the process easier for my type of applicant". 

[Remyelination]

This was too fitting not to post

[pixieMD]

...

 

[MedGoldfish]

Honestly, excluding winter 2020 grades seems tame compared to using a lottery system for offers like last cycle.

 

[whatisgoingon]

1 hour ago, pixieMD said:

I've actually never seen a premed this entitled LMAO. I'll reiterate this again. The med school admissions does not owe you anything. If you don't like it, don't apply (I don't understand why this is so hard to understand). If you want a job but hate the hiring committee, don't apply to that job? Cause chances are, everyone in that job is going to have the same mentality. 

"My post is about how med.schools are detached from what premeds are going through. The admins are so out of touch with the public, they lost the perspective. The admins need real people to correct the admission process and make it more premed oriented, more individualized, more open-minded and eventually more inclusive." 

Yes because it's not like they haven't been having countless numbers of meetings to find the most fair approach. It's not like they've asked for feed backs from medical students. You don't have any idea how hard they've worked throughout this pandemic to ensure that it is most fair for everyone. 

There are many barriers to getting into medical schools like SES, racial inequality, gender biases, etc. that the admissions committee would rather focus on to improve. Sorry but "taking out 1 semester of marks because of A PANDEMIC" ain't it. 

Again, sorry everyone else for the rant. It's just frustrating to see this kind of entitlement. I've personally had convos with people on the admissions committee at my med school during the pandemic and I know how hard they are working. It's just disheartening to see this kind of post...

 

"If you don't like it don't apply" is a terrible thing to say. Admissions Committees are entrusted with tremendous social responsibility and owe both society and applicants equity and fairness in the process.

OP is certainly a particularly entitled, arrogant and whiny applicant, sure. But AdComs had to make decisions pertaining to the pandemic and those decisions came with their controversies and disagreements. This is the perfect place to voice them and discuss them IMHO.

[yesandno]

"Earlier you complained about application fees, now you want people (some of them would need to be paid presumably) to pore over potentially 5,000 applications to determine each situation individually? The amount of time and money this would take is astronomical" Nah, there are many tools to make the selection individualized and, at the same time, automatic. Med schools simply don't want to explore this avenue because it is still more work and they are going through the path of least resistance.

"There are many barriers to getting into medical schools like SES, racial inequality, gender biases, etc. that the admissions committee would rather focus on to improve. Sorry but "taking out 1 semester of marks because of A PANDEMIC" ain't it" I honestly don't see how they address these things, maybe only as empty statements on their websites, but that is it. The winter grade situation is just an example, I have much more beef with the med. school admission.

“The med school admissions does not owe you anything”, they are not a private company, they are paid out of the pockets of taxpayers, including me and my family. They have to be dynamic and flexible and reflect societal changes and satisfy public demands.

“If you don't like it don't apply" is a terrible thing to say. Admissions Committees are entrusted with tremendous social responsibility and owe both society and applicants equity and fairness in the process”, yeah agree. It’s actually shocking to see future leaders talking like sheep: well, if you don’t like it just accept it or go away. The level of conformity and obedience is staggering.

[yesandno]

"That's the equivalent of kicking someone who's already been knocked down", good point and I agree with it. That is why we need a more flexible and individualized admission process and a complete revision of how admins operate. The higher-ups are too comfortable with their cookie-cutter approaches to premeds, they don;t want to evolve. The majority of the recent changes seem to be in the direction of simplifying the admin’s job and worsening the conditions for premeds.

[youbesee]

While my heart goes out to those that are negatively affected by these changes, what is the fairest alternative?

Even if you were able to get better grades despite your classes remaining difficult, how does admissions differentiate you from the many people who had inflated grades or even cheated? And if you retain all these grades, how do you address the disadvantages that face students at Alberta who had all their courses P/F, or the individuals who may have lost their only source of income to pay for tuition and rent? Perhaps the worst outcome is that those who successfully cheated are now in a better place to be admitted than honest individuals that were disadvantaged by the pandemic.

I think the main problem is that there just isn't enough objective information for admissions to reliably judge every individual's circumstances. And even if there were, they certainly don't have the time to do so.

[theevilsloth]

20 hours ago, MedicineLCS said:

Here's my favourite thought exercise when everyone complains about how unfair this is (to them). Consider this entire scenario as an MMI prompt and see how your answers change.

I love this argument so much, this is really all that needs to be said. Almost every single time a 'Winter 2020' thread is posted, this response is all that is needed to show OP how selfish they're being.

[yesandno]

"to show OP how selfish they're being", me, who proposes a more inclusive and individualized approach, is selfish, wow. 

"Consider this entire scenario as an MMI prompt and see how your answers change", what does this have to do with the thread? Don't tell me your answers on the MMI are 100% genuine and they are exactly what you would write anonymously on the internet.

I am here to discuss (and vent) the med.schools’ administrative swamp, its detachment from the reality and how it can be drained.

[MedicineLCS]

I think considering it as an MMI prompt is relevant because it shifts the focus from "Me, me, me" to "Let's look at this situation and balance the pros and cons". We seem to be wired to think of ourselves first so viewing things through a MMI lens would help avoid expressing our own selfish feelings, and then being forced to try and contort our original line of argument after being called out for our selfishness into some vague generalized statement...

I'm not sure what to say to your cynicism towards the MMI/interviews and CASPer but I definitely have answered with the same opinions I've expressed both in-person and online prior to being "tested" on it. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I'd like to think if someone ever put 2 and 2 together I'd have nothing to go and delete or hide, anonymity shouldn't be an excuse for letting negative feelings flow freely. 

As far as "discussing" what's your alternative? Some changes would be good, what about an OMSAS fee waiver program like the AAMC has? I personally find it kinda funny (in a head shaking way) that schools beat the drum for low SES initiatives and haven't done anything to their fees (yet).

It's very easy to point out flaws and say the best course of action is to burn it all down. It's an entirely different approach to suggest improvements. What does an "inclusive and individualized approach" look like in practice? How do OMSAS schools go from 5,000 applications to 500 interviews? Why is that system "best" ("favours me/my type of applicant" isn't a valid a priori reason, there needs to be some principle behind it)?