ENT Salary

[RicardoKaká 317]

Whats salary like for the average general otolaryngologist? How much average % overhead? 

I've read the profiles via the CMA but I have heard that those aren't the most accurate numbers.

Thanks!

[bruh 502]

$460K national average ($710K in AB!) According to this: 

And $443K according to the CIHI:

https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/physicians-in-canada-2018.pdf
 

the only source I know of is 32% overhead based on CMA: 

https://www.cma.ca/sites/default/files/2019-01/otolaryngology-e.pdf#page10

hopefully someone with more info can chime in. 
 

EDIT: found this 2012 study on Ontario physicians. Overhead is 32% here for ENT as well:

[DrOtter 373]

1 hour ago, bruh said:

$460K national average ($710K in AB!) According to this: 

And $443K according to the CIHI:

https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/physicians-in-canada-2018.pdf
 

the only source I know of is 32% overhead based on CMA: 

https://www.cma.ca/sites/default/files/2019-01/otolaryngology-e.pdf#page10

hopefully someone with more info can chime in. 
 

EDIT: found this 2012 study on Ontario physicians. Overhead is 32% here for ENT as well:

these look like they only look at FFS  there's no way Derm and Plastics are not among the top earners haha

[James Nystead 252]

5 minutes ago, DrOtter said:

these look like they only look at FFS  there's no way Derm and Plastics are not among the top earners haha

To be fair theres no way to quantify private practice earnings unless through self-report and they would never report on it themselves lol

[DrOtter 373]

1 minute ago, James Nystead said:

To be fair theres no way to quantify private practice earnings unless through self-report and they would never report on it themselves lol

 

haha I know. but at least it's warming to the heart that their income is not coming from taxpayers 

[James Nystead 252]

1 minute ago, DrOtter said:

haha I know. but at least it's warming to the heart that their income is not coming from taxpayers 

Nope, just middle aged ladies in the case of derm and ENT private practice lol

[bruh 502]

23 minutes ago, DrOtter said:

these look like they only look at FFS  there's no way Derm and Plastics are not among the top earners haha

I’m trying to figure out how much plastic surgeons actually make and it seems like it’s an enigma lol. If they are among the top, they should be billing around a million but I can’t find a source to back that up.

[offmychestplease 267]

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[offmychestplease 267]

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[James Nystead 252]

1 hour ago, bruh said:

I’m trying to figure out how much plastic surgeons actually make and it seems like it’s an enigma lol. If they are among the top, they should be billing around a million but I can’t find a source to back that up.

You really need to talk to staff about this one, Even then youre likely only getting an academic perspective. Private practice varies so much depending on their structure and volume

[PequalsMD 121]

2 hours ago, offmychestplease said:

That chart is extremely deflated for every single speciality. Just as an example, in Ontario and Alberta community Cardiology/GI/Radiology median net income are all 700K+ AFTER overhead not the 400K-450K figure seen here.

 

Source?

[offmychestplease 267]

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[1D7 187]

10 hours ago, bruh said:

$460K national average ($710K in AB!) According to this: 

And $443K according to the CIHI:

https://www.cihi.ca/sites/default/files/document/physicians-in-canada-2018.pdf
 

the only source I know of is 32% overhead based on CMA: 

https://www.cma.ca/sites/default/files/2019-01/otolaryngology-e.pdf#page10

hopefully someone with more info can chime in. 
 

EDIT: found this 2012 study on Ontario physicians. Overhead is 32% here for ENT as well:

The gross billing numbers in there are pretty accurate in Ontario, even in 2020.

[Edict 697]

On 8/6/2020 at 9:51 AM, offmychestplease said:

That chart is extremely deflated for every single speciality. Just as an example, in Ontario and Alberta community Cardiology/GI/Radiology median net income are all 700K+ AFTER overhead not the 400K-450K figure seen here.

 

If you look at the toronto star database however, you see a lot of people are not billing those high numbers. While it is probably true you can bill those numbers if you choose to work a full time+ equivalent like around 60 hrs a week, a lot of doctors don't choose to do that which drags those numbers down significantly. 

[rmorelan 2,637]

On 8/6/2020 at 9:51 AM, bruh said:

I’m trying to figure out how much plastic surgeons actually make and it seems like it’s an enigma lol. If they are among the top, they should be billing around a million but I can’t find a source to back that up.

ha well if you were them I would make it very hard to find out how much I would make as well - anyone with a brain making good money doesn't want anyone else to know about it  

in Canada there may be a few at the "top" but I don't think we are dealing with similar to US style time of billing. It is just a lot harder to get the general support you need to run a practise (like pre and post op care etc.) Sure a lot of it is day care but there are still complications and the local health system won't appreciate dealing with them all that much ha. 

Basically it is always messy and always best to try to go to the sources on these things if you can and gain their trust. The fact that so much medial lately has focused on doctors and basically implying or flatly saying we are overpaid means we are putting up walls (totally missing from the above chart is the point that income is great - but income per hour of work is also extremely important to consider, and in addition to actual work when are you on call and thus don't have real control of your life. Sure for example ER docs earn less - but they also generally work less shifts per month - part of that is their often weird hours - and when they are off they are off. A lot of surgeon types as expected work a ton of hours, and also on top of that can do a ton of call. )

Radiology also often does a lot more call than you think ha. I am a special case and work 1 in 3 overnights (ha, so basically I am on call worse than a resident forever) - and that shields my group from having to do call. Other places don't have that and are called overnight for critical things (then have to work the next day - that can mess you up if it happens too much for too long ha). 

 

[whatisgoingon 43]

Do ER docs actually make this "little"? I was under the impression they were bringing home 400k+

[rmorelan 2,637]

2 minutes ago, whatisgoingon said:

Do ER docs actually make this "little"? I was under the impression they were bringing home 400k+

ok one other thing - I really don't think that chart dealt well with the numbers, and also I think in particular part time people are not included - when you don't have any fix patient lists you can be more flexible - and ER attracts people that want that flexibility. 

Still I think some of those are too high and some are too low based on the less formal assessments I have done. This will always be hard though - different number of hours, different job stresses, different times the shifts are, different overheads...... it is a huge mess to figure out in the end. 

[Edict 697]

9 minutes ago, whatisgoingon said:

Do ER docs actually make this "little"? I was under the impression they were bringing home 400k+

You can if you take on more than the average number of shifts. I heard the typical ER doc working 16 shifts a month (8 hrs a shift) or so with a mix of days and nights made around 300k but no overhead. So that is actually a really sweet gig, since you can easily scale up when you are younger if you want. 

Also, as a general rule, don't read too much into salary numbers, the more you hear about the numbers bandied around by folks the more you realize consistency between numbers is often lacking and the more you realize that in many specialties you can find a way to bill at least 400k and in most specialties you can find a way to bill 150-200k and have more flexibility in your life. There are exceptions to this of course, surgical specialties tend to have little control over their hours. 

[whatisgoingon 43]

1 minute ago, Edict said:

You can if you take on more than the average number of shifts. I heard the typical ER doc working 16 shifts a month or so with a mix of days and nights made around 300k but no overhead. So that is actually a really sweet gig, since you can easily scale up when you are younger if you want. 

It blows my mind. I have also heard Peds ER often make much, much more than that.

Money is certainly not the most important aspect for me in choosing a specialty, but lifestyle is important... Sometimes I wonder if I am not about to get screwed by gunning for a fairly intense surgical specialty lol

[rmorelan 2,637]

1 minute ago, Edict said:

You can if you take on more than the average number of shifts. I heard the typical ER doc working 16 shifts a month (8 hrs a shift) or so with a mix of days and nights made around 300k but no overhead. So that is actually a really sweet gig, since you can easily scale up when you are younger if you want. 

that is close to what I understand

but I should add ha that a lot of times those shifts again are at times all over the clock - you cannot work 22 shifts (which I would say is base standard on average) if the shifts keep moving around - nights, evenings, mornings, weekends........

so yeah you need recovery time, and that needs to be factored into any schedule. moving your sleep schedule around can really mess you up. A lot of older ER docs have that as the number one issue they have to deal with. 

[Edict 697]

7 minutes ago, whatisgoingon said:

It blows my mind. I have also heard Peds ER often make much, much more than that.

Money is certainly not the most important aspect for me in choosing a specialty, but lifestyle is important... Sometimes I wonder if I am not about to get screwed by gunning for a fairly intense surgical specialty lol

Don't let it, because crazy numbers spread faster than normal numbers. If I told you that I knew of a surgeon making 2 million a year, you are much more likely to tell others than if i told you i knew of a surgeon who made 300-400k. But that one surgeon making 2 million a year may be also lucky, working 70 hrs a week and taking so much clients that no other surgeon in the area can now make an average salary or that some of the younger surgeons are now forced to find a job elsewhere etc. 

I have never heard that Peds ER makes much for instance, so is that really true or is that just one guy who has a great set up? 

The only thing i wonder is will this intense surgical specialty offer you lifestyle? 

I always believe that salary numbers are pretty inaccurate and really shouldn't be used to make a decision on your specialty. It is similar to lifestyle as well as you will be surprised at what kind of specialties can also have a set up with lifestyle if they so chose. There are broad ranges sure, but these salary ranges between specialties overlap so heavily that in most cases it doesn't matter. Generally speaking, there is no free lunch and as a doctor working a standard 40-50 hrs a week I would not expect more than 400k income in most cases. If you want to make more than 400k expect to put in more training and/or at least 50 or 60+ hrs a week. If you want to make more than 1 mil you'll need to be lucky, good, in the right specialty at the right time in the right location and you will still have to put in 60+ hrs a week. 

[offmychestplease 267]

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[whatisgoingon 43]

2 minutes ago, Edict said:

The only thing i wonder is will this intense surgical specialty offer you lifestyle? 

Highly unlikely :p 

I am finding it really difficult to make a choice when my interest/passion does not seem to align with what I would like to get out of life outside of the hospital... Was it easy for you to choose?

[Edict 697]

4 minutes ago, offmychestplease said:

ER can make up to $900,000 if you work 25+ shifts (8hrs a shift) a month (yes, some do this at least in younger years).

$600,000 is doable working 19 shifts a month.

The low $400,000 comes from if you are only working 12 shifts a month.

Again, these numbers are extremely deflated..and I will echo the quote above "anyone with a brain making good money doesn't want anyone else to know about it". It seems the common sentiment in medicine to greatly deflate numbers, but it does harm to medical students who want to understand realistic prospects for different fields. There are some honest people who will privately discuss numbers.

I would only expect those numbers at certain busy centers, can you share your sources? 

[offmychestplease 267]

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