Third degree or additional year?

[Noah]

Hello everyone, 

I'm conflicted on which route I should take. An additional year or jump right into a third degree. Here is the break down for my GPA and MCAT:

Year 1: 3.32 (10 classes)

Year 2: 3.64 (10 classes) 

Year 3: 3.80 (8 classes) 

Year 4: 3.65 (9 classes) 

OMSAS GPA: 3.60

MCAT: 127, 127, 129, 127 (510)

Completed M.Sc.

The last time I took undergrad classes was in the year 2017. Would it be better if took an additional year (5th year) or did a 2 year third degree? I'm working full-time right now. Should I transition to part-time while taking on full time studies? Also, I was wondering on ur thoughts for rewriting the MCAT or would it be okay for queens and western assuming I do additional year or third degree to improve GPA and qualify for Western? Thanks.

 

 

 

[neurologist19]

I am a bit confused. How can you take an additional year when you are already graduated. So you have a 4 year BS and a finished MSC already. right? what is your MSC GPA? how many courses have you taken during your MSc?

[Noah]

7 minutes ago, neurologist19 said:

I am a bit confused. How can you take an additional year when you are already graduated. So you have a 4 year BS and a finished MSC already. right? what is your MSC GPA? how many courses have you taken during your MSc?

Hey, I took 5 courses as a part of my thesis based M.Sc. My cumulative GPA in those courses was a 4.0. I'm not completely sure of the process but I thought I could maybe take additional year of courses to be added on to my transcript? I'm also open to the idea of doing an MD/phD. My wGPA is 85% for UBC, so I'm thinking of applying there for an MD/phD. 

[neurologist19]

I see so that is cool. I am not sure about other universities but for UBC, everything counts including the courses you took in your master's. I am in a similar situation with you. I have an undergrad and master's and thinking about doing a second undergrad. doing second undergrad could be done in 2 years but the thing is that depending on how much improvement you need for your GPA, you may want to take my courses in your second undergrad degree. 

[bearded frog]

16 hours ago, neurologist19 said:

I am a bit confused. How can you take an additional year when you are already graduated. So you have a 4 year BS and a finished MSC already. right? what is your MSC GPA? how many courses have you taken during your MSc?

You can definitely do post-baccalaureate classes not as part of a a degree. You just sign up for random courses. I did it and took like astronomy 101 just for the GPA boost.

16 hours ago, Noah said:

Hey, I took 5 courses as a part of my thesis based M.Sc. My cumulative GPA in those courses was a 4.0. I'm not completely sure of the process but I thought I could maybe take additional year of courses to be added on to my transcript? I'm also open to the idea of doing an MD/phD. My wGPA is 85% for UBC, so I'm thinking of applying there for an MD/phD. 

Dunno why people are asking for your MSc GPA, it doesn't matter and no school consider graduate degree marks (because everyone gets 4.0) (Disclaimer: I have a MSc). Edit: wow, my apologies on this one, I was wrong and UBC does consider GPA. I know that unless things have changed recently this is true for Ontario schools though, and seems to be new since I applied back in the day.

85% is literally the OOP bare minimum cut off for UBC. The question of weather to do an extra year or and extra degree comes down to math. Doing some quick back of the napkin math, you have a 3.59 over 37 courses. If you did a full course load and got 4.0 in every class, then your cumulative GPA will be a 3.68. Much more in the realistic range for medical school, but at the same time not close to the 92% GPA average for OOP interviewees. Two years of 4.0 gets you to 3.73, so as you can see diminishing returns. But, if you do those two years in a second degree, some schools let you get a GPA boost through various formulas that require them to be part of a degree granting year. Note that UBC just takes off your worst year it doesn't look like they have the requirements to be part of a course? So you might qualify if you just took another year. I think you are just under the full 120 credits to optimize the bonus. Don't take my word for this, see if someone else can confirm. If that's the case your GPA as it stands is a little higher but could get up to 3.75ish with one extra year (I think with 37 courses you currently would only be eligible to have your 7 worst courses dropped from your first year).

I saw you posted that you're interested in MD/PhD in the other thread, nobody will be able to give you a solid answer, other than you have to hit the minimum requirements for MD and have a somewhat compeditive app (but the standards for the MD part are a little lower) and also a clear interest in an academic pathway, and not just looking like you're using the PhD as a backdoor. A lot of schools now have strict policies that you cannot drop the PhD part and continue with MD after you start, I do not know if UBC currently has this policy, but consider your future carefully.

 

[neurologist19]

5 minutes ago, bearded frog said:

You can definitely do post-baccalaureate classes not as part of a a degree. You just sign up for random courses. I did it and took like astronomy 101 just for the GPA boost.

Dunno why people are asking for your MSc GPA, it doesn't matter and no school consider graduate degree marks (because everyone gets 4.0) (Disclaimer: I have a MSc).

85% is literally the OOP bare minimum cut off for UBC. The question of weather to do an extra year or and extra degree comes down to math. Doing some quick back of the napkin math, you have a 3.59 over 37 courses. If you did a full course load and got 4.0 in every class, then your cumulative GPA will be a 3.68. Much more in the realistic range for medical school, but at the same time not close to the 92% GPA average for OOP interviewees. Two years of 4.0 gets you to 3.73, so as you can see diminishing returns. But, if you do those two years in a second degree, some schools let you get a GPA boost through various formulas that require them to be part of a degree granting year. Note that UBC just takes off your worst year it doesn't look like they have the requirements to be part of a course? So you might qualify if you just took another year. I think you are just under the full 120 credits to optimize the bonus. Don't take my word for this, see if someone else can confirm. If that's the case your GPA as it stands is a little higher but could get up to 3.75ish with one extra year (I think with 37 courses you currently would only be eligible to have your 7 worst courses dropped from your first year).

I saw you posted that you're interested in MD/PhD in the other thread, nobody will be able to give you a solid answer, other than you have to hit the minimum requirements for MD and have a somewhat compeditive app (but the standards for the MD part are a little lower) and also a clear interest in an academic pathway, and not just looking like you're using the PhD as a backdoor. A lot of schools now have strict policies that you cannot drop the PhD part and continue with MD after you start, I do not know if UBC currently has this policy, but consider your future carefully.

 

Can you show me where UBC mentions they do not consider the grad school courses?  I saw this statement in the past too but couldn't find a source for it. Is it a thing for UoT, etc? at least for UBC, I couldn't find a single reference to it. I did grad school at UBC and the average is definitely high (like 87-88%) but the people in the classes are also those who had a similar GPA in their undergrads, so it doesn't mean it is easier.

 

 

 

[frenchpress]

1 hour ago, bearded frog said:

You can definitely do post-baccalaureate classes not as part of a a degree. You just sign up for random courses. I did it and took like astronomy 101 just for the GPA boost.

Dunno why people are asking for your MSc GPA, it doesn't matter and no school consider graduate degree marks (because everyone gets 4.0) (Disclaimer: I have a MSc).

 

 

UBC does use graduate degree grades.  https://mdprogram.med.ubc.ca/admissions/frequently-asked-questions/

Edit: And it’s been awhile since I checked, but pretty sure UofAlberta and UofCalgary both include any grades assigned to graduate courses in their calculations in some form (they did back when I was applying).

Even though graduate grades tend to be inflated compared to undergraduate grades, it usually only works out to a single semester (most thesis-based) or full semester (most course-based) worth of grades. It makes sense to me that they include them: when you already have 4+ years of undergrad, the ultimate grade boost for most people with an MSc is pretty small (maybe a couple percent at most unless you really killed it compared to your undergrad). I’ve always assumed it was one way these schools give extra ‘points’ for having an MSc/PhD.

Edited February 22, 2021 by frenchpress

[frenchpress]

5 hours ago, Noah said:

Hello everyone, 

I'm conflicted on which route I should take. An additional year or jump right into a third degree. Here is the break down for my GPA and MCAT:

Year 1: 3.32 (10 classes)

Year 2: 3.64 (10 classes) 

Year 3: 3.80 (8 classes) 

Year 4: 3.65 (9 classes) 

OMSAS GPA: 3.60

MCAT: 127, 127, 129, 127 (510)

Completed M.Sc.

The last time I took undergrad classes was in the year 2017. Would it be better if took an additional year (5th year) or did a 2 year third degree? I'm working full-time right now. Should I transition to part-time while taking on full time studies? Also, I was wondering on ur thoughts for rewriting the MCAT or would it be okay for queens and western assuming I do additional year or third degree to improve GPA and qualify for Western? Thanks.

 

 

 

I can’t tell if you’re a UBC student. But if you are, and are wanting a full-time course load, you may be better off being in an undergraduate degree program. At UBC, you can apply take courses after you’ve finished your degree as an ‘unclassified’ student. You can, in theory, take as many courses as you want. However, unclassified students at UBC have the lowest registration priority, meaning you can only register for courses after all the other students, majors, etc register. Some courses, especially upper year courses, may also be restricted to students in particular major programs. In practice this can lead to limited choices as an unclassified student at UBC, depending on which courses you want to take and how likely they are to be full. I don’t know how it works at other schools, but I imagine it’s an issue at some of them, depending on their registration policies.

Looking at your grades, I am not sure how you get an adjusted GPA of 85%?  3.7 is usually ~80-84%/A-, no? UBC will drop your worst year only.

 

 

[bearded frog]

12 hours ago, neurologist19 said:

Can you show me where UBC mentions they do not consider the grad school courses?  I saw this statement in the past too but couldn't find a source for it. Is it a thing for UoT, etc? at least for UBC, I couldn't find a single reference to it. I did grad school at UBC and the average is definitely high (like 87-88%) but the people in the classes are also those who had a similar GPA in their undergrads, so it doesn't mean it is easier.

My apologies, you are correct. UBC does consider graduate courses it seems, thanks to the other poster who linked it. This is a change from when I applied way back when. At least when I applied Ontario schools did not consider them, that might have changed too. This also changes the math of OP's GPA so can't really comment on that anymore.

I stand by my statements on grad school grades being inflated. I was on the admissions committee of my medical school and this was the reason they were not considered... (and again I got a 4.0 on my masters degree basically automatically...)

[Noah]

16 hours ago, bearded frog said:

You can definitely do post-baccalaureate classes not as part of a a degree. You just sign up for random courses. I did it and took like astronomy 101 just for the GPA boost.

Dunno why people are asking for your MSc GPA, it doesn't matter and no school consider graduate degree marks (because everyone gets 4.0) (Disclaimer: I have a MSc). Edit: wow, my apologies on this one, I was wrong and UBC does consider GPA. I know that unless things have changed recently this is true for Ontario schools though, and seems to be new since I applied back in the day.

85% is literally the OOP bare minimum cut off for UBC. The question of weather to do an extra year or and extra degree comes down to math. Doing some quick back of the napkin math, you have a 3.59 over 37 courses. If you did a full course load and got 4.0 in every class, then your cumulative GPA will be a 3.68. Much more in the realistic range for medical school, but at the same time not close to the 92% GPA average for OOP interviewees. Two years of 4.0 gets you to 3.73, so as you can see diminishing returns. But, if you do those two years in a second degree, some schools let you get a GPA boost through various formulas that require them to be part of a degree granting year. Note that UBC just takes off your worst year it doesn't look like they have the requirements to be part of a course? So you might qualify if you just took another year. I think you are just under the full 120 credits to optimize the bonus. Don't take my word for this, see if someone else can confirm. If that's the case your GPA as it stands is a little higher but could get up to 3.75ish with one extra year (I think with 37 courses you currently would only be eligible to have your 7 worst courses dropped from your first year).

I saw you posted that you're interested in MD/PhD in the other thread, nobody will be able to give you a solid answer, other than you have to hit the minimum requirements for MD and have a somewhat compeditive app (but the standards for the MD part are a little lower) and also a clear interest in an academic pathway, and not just looking like you're using the PhD as a backdoor. A lot of schools now have strict policies that you cannot drop the PhD part and continue with MD after you start, I do not know if UBC currently has this policy, but consider your future carefully.

 

I'm OOP from Ontario. I have more than 37 courses taken (I did not include summer courses here). I believe UBC considers summer courses as well as Master's courses in their wGPA formula towards the 120 credits. I will be considered an IP if I apply for the MD/phD route at UBC. I understand that my wGPA of 85% is still low considering the average for successful IP applicants is around 88%. Do you happen to know the policy around stopping a second degree halfway through? Say I start a 2 year UG degree and apply to UBC MD/phD the same year. If I happen to get accepted into the MD/phD stream, is it possible to abandon the second degree? MD/phD would be better for my own personal growth and future goals over a second degree. Should I concurrently apply for the MD/phD stream along with a second UG degree? Or apply MD/phD alone or MD/phD with a additional 5th year? I need some clarity on what would be the smartest thing to do here...

[Noah]

16 hours ago, frenchpress said:

I can’t tell if you’re a UBC student. But if you are, and are wanting a full-time course load, you may be better off being in an undergraduate degree program. At UBC, you can apply take courses after you’ve finished your degree as an ‘unclassified’ student. You can, in theory, take as many courses as you want. However, unclassified students at UBC have the lowest registration priority, meaning you can only register for courses after all the other students, majors, etc register. Some courses, especially upper year courses, may also be restricted to students in particular major programs. In practice this can lead to limited choices as an unclassified student at UBC, depending on which courses you want to take and how likely they are to be full. I don’t know how it works at other schools, but I imagine it’s an issue at some of them, depending on their registration policies.

Looking at your grades, I am not sure how you get an adjusted GPA of 85%?  3.7 is usually ~80-84%/A-, no? UBC will drop your worst year only.

 

 

Hey, I'm OOP from Ontario. My adjusted grades take off the worst year and include summer courses (not shown here) along with my grades for my master's courses. Thank you for bringing up the registration priority. I need to look into that further.  

[bearded frog]

1 hour ago, Noah said:

I'm OOP from Ontario. I have more than 37 courses taken (I did not include summer courses here). I believe UBC considers summer courses as well as Master's courses in their wGPA formula towards the 120 credits. I will be considered an IP if I apply for the MD/phD route at UBC. I understand that my wGPA of 85% is still low considering the average for successful IP applicants is around 88%. Do you happen to know the policy around stopping a second degree halfway through? Say I start a 2 year UG degree and apply to UBC MD/phD the same year. If I happen to get accepted into the MD/phD stream, is it possible to abandon the second degree? MD/phD would be better for my own personal growth and future goals over a second degree. Should I concurrently apply for the MD/phD stream along with a second UG degree? Or apply MD/phD alone or MD/phD with a additional 5th year? I need some clarity on what would be the smartest thing to do here...

Clearly I'm not super knowledgeable about the intricacies of UBC's policies but they do include summer courses, I do not know exactly how the factor into their grade adjustment. As far as I know there isn't an issue with stopping undergraduate degrees like there is with unfinished graduate degrees at some places. You can apply for a 5th year either as part of a degree (which I assume you would have to apply to and be accepted) or as a post-bac year (for which, as was noted above, you may not have priority for some courses). You might have to reach out to an advisor at UBC about what their rules are. It seems like for UBC at least there would be no advantage to doing a 5th year as a second degree vs just a undeclared pos-bac year.

[idontwannabehopeless]

On 2/21/2021 at 10:14 PM, frenchpress said:

UBC does use graduate degree grades.  https://mdprogram.med.ubc.ca/admissions/frequently-asked-questions/

Edit: And it’s been awhile since I checked, but pretty sure UofAlberta and UofCalgary both include any grades assigned to graduate courses in their calculations in some form (they did back when I was applying).

Even though graduate grades tend to be inflated compared to undergraduate grades, it usually only works out to a single semester (most thesis-based) or full semester (most course-based) worth of grades. It makes sense to me that they include them: when you already have 4+ years of undergrad, the ultimate grade boost for most people with an MSc is pretty small (maybe a couple percent at most unless you really killed it compared to your undergrad). I’ve always assumed it was one way these schools give extra ‘points’ for having an MSc/PhD.

Hi, I'm checking at the link about "UBC does use graduate degree grades" and can't seem where it stated they do check it. Which part? Thank you

[frenchpress]

31 minutes ago, idontwannabehopeless said:

Hi, I'm checking at the link about "UBC does use graduate degree grades" and can't seem where it stated they do check it. Which part? Thank you

Under ‘grade average calculations’

[idontwannabehopeless]

23 hours ago, frenchpress said:

Under ‘grade average calculations’

Oooh, gotcha! Saw it. Thank you :))