Another RN to MD Thread (focused on Ontario)

[haskayn 0]

I'm doing a bit of preliminary research for my wife - 

She's been a RN for past 7 years at Sick Kids, can get stellar references (not sure if that really matters for Med School admissions)

She's done a Masters, part-time instructor, and has ran numerous labs. 

Here GPA should be 3.7+ for both undergrad and I think Masters

My question then goes... is her biggest obstacle to Med School acceptance in a Ontario school her MCAT score? 

I read that they've eliminated pre-requisites (so I assume her nursing program + masters should be enough --> never took organic chemistry or physics)

[#YOLO 166]

lost income and seniority isnt worth it..tell her to progress in nursing then get a nice cushy admin job

[haskayn 0]

RNs make peanuts - lost income is not even a factor here (lose out on ~85k a year for 4 years to make ~250K-300K for the next 30 years)

NP could be a alternative, but even they dont make much (140 and still dealing with burn out) 




 

[zxcccxz 96]

1 hour ago, haskayn said:

RNs make peanuts - lost income is not even a factor here (lose out on ~85k a year for 4 years to make ~250K-300K for the next 30 years)

NP could be a alternative, but even they dont make much (140 and still dealing with burn out) 




 

Your math is a little off there. Lose out on 85k per year sure... but you also pay 25k per year in tuition on top of that not to mention all the other costs of med school. And of course, when you start working as a resident, you make less money than an RN while working a lot more hours. That money you lose out on isn't just what the dollar amount would be, but also the compounded interest you would've made by investing into the market. And if you can make 140 as an NP that's a pretty sweet deal cause even a family doctor pulling in twice that has 30% overhead and a higher tax rate...

Not saying that at the end of that ~30year career that you wouldn't come out ahead, but when you factor all these things in, you would probably be into your late 40s before you even broke even. So, certainly not a decision that should be made on financial grounds.

[ceelbe 44]

4 hours ago, #YOLO said:

lost income and seniority isnt worth it..tell her to progress in nursing then get a nice cushy admin job

Don’t think you can fairly say what’s worth it or not for someone you know basically nothing about lol. Not everyone wants a cushy admin job, sometimes it just isn’t fulfilling in life and you gotta love what you do, so if they’re drawn to medicine and passionate about it and know they’d live a much happier life then it’s probably something they consider worth sacrificing those things for.

[Pakoon 99]

Was an RN before Medical school, more in line with your original question, some schools still have prereqs, but many don't. The MCAT will probably be the biggest barrier to getting an interview (as an RN with that many years under their belt im sure that will be enough for ECs), but nothing you cant study for. I can't speak whether the choice is right for you, but i have yet to regret it. 

[haskayn 0]

10 hours ago, zxcccxz said:

Your math is a little off there. Lose out on 85k per year sure... but you also pay 25k per year in tuition on top of that not to mention all the other costs of med school. And of course, when you start working as a resident, you make less money than an RN while working a lot more hours. That money you lose out on isn't just what the dollar amount would be, but also the compounded interest you would've made by investing into the market. And if you can make 140 as an NP that's a pretty sweet deal cause even a family doctor pulling in twice that has 30% overhead and a higher tax rate...

Not saying that at the end of that ~30year career that you wouldn't come out ahead, but when you factor all these things in, you would probably be into your late 40s before you even broke even. So, certainly not a decision that should be made on financial grounds.

I think for my wife its also RN burn out, under appreciated and under paid.

4 years lost income + tuition + 1 year residency difference (~480k) - would take 3 years of Family med at $250k salary to cover it up... but I hope the goal is for her to live longer than 40 --> not to mention as well the huge tax savings working as a corporation. 

She's also just fed up with RN - I'm in business and I work half has hard as she does and make more than twice her salary, so she's gotten even more frustrated seeing it play out at home as well. So it has become one of those things we've been talking about where she can set herself up for success later on in life and have a more relaxed lifestyle while still making decent income, as well as the satisfaction/respect of being a doctor (like you said not a decision on financial grounds only). 

I agree on the compounded interest and investing in the market, but who really is that active in the market anyways - no body is making GME style returns sitting in index funds. 

The other impetus would also be my siblings and their spouses are doctors, goal is to eventually open up a practice... so choices we're looking at is NP Family Practice or Med School... 

[haskayn 0]

6 hours ago, Pakoon said:

Was an RN before Medical school, more in line with your original question, some schools still have prereqs, but many don't. The MCAT will probably be the biggest barrier to getting an interview (as an RN with that many years under their belt im sure that will be enough for ECs), but nothing you cant study for. I can't speak whether the choice is right for you, but i have yet to regret it. 

Could I ask where you got in? Her focus would be Ontario... ideally GTA. 

Appreciate the answer

[premed72 94]

Break down the GPA per year of study. And whether or not she took a full course load in each of those years from sept to April. Then we can better evaluate her GPA situation/competitiveness. I'd also mention that most schools are not in Toronto or GTA. You'd both (or just her depending on what you guys prefer) have to be willing to move to other cities. 

 

[offmychestplease 258]

1. GPA is too low, needs to do another undergrad degree before applying

2. Assuming your wife is 30 now, and gets accepted at 34 (since it takes 1 year to apply, likely need time to bump up GPA, study write the MCAT, and the fact that most apply 2-3 times before admission), she will finish medical school at 38, finish FM at 40. And won't break even until age 45 due to the several years of lost income, tuition, opportunity cost etc. 

So you're looking at 15 years from today before that happens...

[neurologist19 23]

As far as money, sometime it is not the theoretical money you gain or loser but rather the sense of feeling appreciated. She might feel more appreciated if she earns 300K instead of 80K or 100K. It has nothing to do with which option is "economically superior" in the long run.

[bearded frog 712]

I mean I think it's safe to assume she will break even and make more money before she retires if she goes the MD route, even if she has to do some part time extra undergrad, and even if you consider nursing pension etc., so I don't think she will end up at a financial disadvantage, but I agree with the above posters that compared to going the NP route that you're probably overestimating the benefit in terms of income.

I'm also not sure why you think the NP burn out would be any different than MD burn out? I'm a pediatrician and NPs are very common in our NICUs, and there are definitely NP programs in Toronto she can do while working. Using your numbers 140 a year with no overhead and benefits/pension/union is not THAT far off from MD. The average Canadian family doc bills roughly 250k a year with 27% overhead = ~180k income without benefits/pension.

However, I would strongly consider the increased work/stress/life commitments that medicine/residency will change both of your lives for the next 5 to 9 years for probably less financial advantage than you think. If she's absolutely miserable doing what she does and will leave regardless and this is really what will make her happy fulfilled and you both agree its worth sacrificing, realistically the next decade (studying/taking MCAT, probably improving GPA, potentially multiple applications, likely 4 years of MD, minimum 2 years of residency) to do it, then power to you guys.

[haskayn 0]

On 4/9/2021 at 6:26 PM, bearded frog said:

I mean I think it's safe to assume she will break even and make more money before she retires if she goes the MD route, even if she has to do some part time extra undergrad, and even if you consider nursing pension etc., so I don't think she will end up at a financial disadvantage, but I agree with the above posters that compared to going the NP route that you're probably overestimating the benefit in terms of income.

I'm also not sure why you think the NP burn out would be any different than MD burn out? I'm a pediatrician and NPs are very common in our NICUs, and there are definitely NP programs in Toronto she can do while working. Using your numbers 140 a year with no overhead and benefits/pension/union is not THAT far off from MD. The average Canadian family doc bills roughly 250k a year with 27% overhead = ~180k income without benefits/pension.

However, I would strongly consider the increased work/stress/life commitments that medicine/residency will change both of your lives for the next 5 to 9 years for probably less financial advantage than you think. If she's absolutely miserable doing what she does and will leave regardless and this is really what will make her happy fulfilled and you both agree its worth sacrificing, realistically the next decade (studying/taking MCAT, probably improving GPA, potentially multiple applications, likely 4 years of MD, minimum 2 years of residency) to do it, then power to you guys.

Agree with you guys that shouldnt under estimate comparative salary of NPs (though 120-140 depending on specialty) 

I think MD salary of 27% overhead is probably overstated, or self-selected based off reporting as I'm hearing quite higher salaries from my brother and his friends. That and of course tax savings by being incorporated - I think it does win out by large margin especially if you can treat your work more like a business/clinic. 

As for what you're saying NP vs MD burn out - you could very well be right. I'd assume she would want to go family (which is very chill) and co-open a clinic down the line. 

As you guys all saying GPA seems the biggest roadblock if its 3.7ish - we gotta see what it looks like once its standardized, if its closer to 3.9 then I assume we are in solid footing. 

 

[haskayn 0]

On 4/8/2021 at 4:14 PM, neurologist19 said:

As far as money, sometime it is not the theoretical money you gain or loser but rather the sense of feeling appreciated. She might feel more appreciated if she earns 300K instead of 80K or 100K. It has nothing to do with which option is "economically superior" in the long run.

Agreed as well - though the numbers I'd say definitely win out here as well - but for sure the feeling of becoming a doctor is a incredible achievement, the respect, etc. 

 

[1D7 166]

3.9+ and good MCAT score and she has a shot. If her GPA is around 3.7, ideally some full-time classes are done to bring up the GPA a bit (this is assuming she will be more or less 4.0'ing every class).

Unless she's at the cusp of admission it's probably not worth it as other posters have mentioned. As a FM the money won't be much better than a NP and the path is much more difficult. Possibly doing medicine would actually net her less money if admittance to medical school required her to take some years off for undergrad classes.

Plus if you're settled down the stress of potential relocation for medical school (3-4 years) and residency (2-6+ years) is another factor to consider.

[haskayn 0]

18 hours ago, 1D7 said:

3.9+ and good MCAT score and she has a shot. If her GPA is around 3.7, ideally some full-time classes are done to bring up the GPA a bit (this is assuming she will be more or less 4.0'ing every class).

Unless she's at the cusp of admission it's probably not worth it as other posters have mentioned. As a FM the money won't be much better than a NP and the path is much more difficult. Possibly doing medicine would actually net her less money if admittance to medical school required her to take some years off for undergrad classes.

Plus if you're settled down the stress of potential relocation for medical school (3-4 years) and residency (2-6+ years) is another factor to consider.

Yea agreed - I think the ideal case is Family med (I assume that's 2 years). 

Gotta wait and see what the GPA looks like... damn you Med school nerds with your high GPAs lol. 

thanks for advice though