Should I go to US or Canadian undergrad if I want to get into medical school in either country (Canadian citizen)?

[overtest123]

Hello, a fellow high school student here. I'm really debating where should I do my undergrad if my ultimate goal is just to get accepted into any medical school. I'm a Canadian citizen but I'm doing high school in the US. My two options for college are 1) go to my decent state school in US and 2) go to UG in Ontario, Canada.

Yes, I know competition is fierce in Canada (especially Ontario), but the acceptance rate for an international student in the US isn't much higher, IMO (Ontario acceptance rate is ~15%, US international student is ~17/18% although it may be slightly higher for canadians?). I consider myself pretty good at academics (compared to ECs, academics is definitely my strength), like I'm pretty confident I can get a good GPA and MCAT. Canada is more stats heavy I believe (and some schools are very clear about their pre-interview selection criteria), which gives me some favor in securing a med school interview, but the interview is weighted much more heavily than US and that may lower my chances of getting accepted perhaps (I think I'm an average or better-than-average communicator). For US, I'll be treated as a international student (very disadvantaged) and also as a ORM. US has a more holistic view of applicants and I'm not sure if it would work in my favor or not (of course I'll try my very best to do good ECs but I think I won't have like a superstar EC or anything like that, and I'm an average writer for essays). On the side note, I'm not sure if I'll have as many EC opportunities in Canada (ie. volunteering in hospital) compared to US but that's just based on what I learned (I could be wrong!).

If I do UG in Canada, I can apply to both US and Canadian med schools (but of course my focus would be on applying to Canadian/mostly Ontario med schools), whereas I'm pretty much stuck to US med schools if I do UG in US. There is fewer schools that I can apply and have a realistic chance of getting accepted to in Canada (bc of heavy IP favor and others), whereas I can apply to a ton of schools in US (although limited to the schools that accept international/Canadian students that include many top tier schools). Some minor details include that I can try applying 3rd year if I do UG in Canada, which is like an extra chance (though a very slim chance of getting accepted). Tuition in Canada is obviously cheaper but that is like the last factor I'll consider. I really don't have any preferences for where I live or practice (I'm ok with practicing in either US or Canada eventually), and I just want to know which route will I have a better shot of getting into medical school. Thank you all for your insights beforehand!

[zoxy]

This is an easy choice. Go to school in Canada for multiple reasons.

1) Studying in the US means that you will be Out-of-Province for every Canadian medical school since you'd have spent both high school and undergrad in the US. It is an order of magnitude more difficult to get into Canadian schools as an OOP. Since you're not an American citizen, you won't be in state for any of the public medical schools and staying there won't benefit you in any way. The vast majority of public medical school's don't accept internationals.

2)American schools don't have A+ grading. This will hurt you when applying to school in Canada since your grades will automatically be lower. McGill is the only Canadian school that has such a grading system and many of its graduates struggle when it comes to GPA conversions.

3)American schools are tougher graders, especially if you go to a good flagship state school like Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, UVA, UWashington, etc. Grades are on a curve and only 10-15 percent of a class gets an A. And unlike Canada where anyone with a pulse can study science in a university, state flagships have selective admission and the kids are smart. In Canada, only UofT grades on a strict curve (it too should be avoided), other schools are generally much easier.

4)Since you have to pay out of state/international tuition the cost of undergrad be much lower in Canada. Same thing for Medical School in the US. Will you be able to pay out-of-state or private medical school tuition for four years without US federal loans? Private US loans will require a co-signer. Map out the costs and your financial support to see if it's even an option.

5)You're quoting the Ontario admissions rate which is the wrong way to go about it since there's very little IP preference in Ontario. Go to University in another province to markedly increase your chances of getting into school. It will only hinder you for McMaster (only Ontario school to have IP preference) but gaining IP status in a non-Ontario province will greatly increase your odds. Also, the median admission MCAT for internationals in the US is a 515. There's a lot of self selection involved in applying to the US for medical schools. Comparing admissions chances at face value is meaningless if you don't know the underlying characteristics of the two applicant populations. Most importantly, applying to the US with a Canadian undergrad won't greatly disadvantage if you do the requisite clinical volunteering and shadowing that American schools want. Not having IP status in Canada will suck. Even if Ontario is your only option, I'd still pick it over being an international in the US.

[insomnias]

30 minutes ago, zoxy said:

This is an easy choice. Go to school Canada for multiple reasons.

1) Studying in the US means that you will be Out-of-Province for every Canadian medical school since you'd have spent both high school and undergrad in the US. It is an order of magnitude more difficult to get into Canadian schools as an international. Since you're not an American citizen, you won't be in state for any of the public medical schools and staying there won't benefit you in any way. The vast majority of public medical school's don't accept internationals.

2)American schools don't have A+ grading. This will hurt you when applying to school in Canada since your grades will automatically be lower. McGill is the only Canadian school that has such a grading system and many of its graduates struggle when it comes to GPA conversions.

3)American schools are tougher graders, especially if you go to a good flagship state school like Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, UVA, UWashington, etc. Grades are on a curve and only 10-15 percent of a class gets an A. And unlike Canada where anyone with a pulse can study science in a university, state flagships have selective admission and the kids are smart. In Canada, only UofT grades on a strict curve (it too should be avoided), other schools are generally much easier.

4)Since you have to pay out of state/international tuition the cost of undergrad be much lower in Canada. Same thing for Medical School in the US. Will you be able to pay out-of-state or private medical school tuition for four years without US federal loans? Private US loans will require a co-signer. Map out the costs and your financial support to see if it's even an option.

5)You're quoting the Ontario admissions rate which is the wrong way to go about it since there's very little IP preference in Ontario. Go to University in another province to markedly increase your chances of getting into school. It will only hinder you for McMaster (only Ontario school to have IP preference) but gaining IP status in a non-Ontario province will greatly increase your odds. Also, the median admission MCAT for internationals in the US is a 515. There's a lot of self selection involved in applying to the US for medical schools. Comparing admissions chances at face value is meaningless if you don't know the underlying characteristics of the two applicant populations. Most importantly, applying to the US with a Canadian undergrad won't greatly disadvantage if you do the requisite clinical volunteering and shadowing that American schools want. Not having IP status in Canada will suck. Even if Ontario is your only option, I'd still pick it over being an international in the US.

Counterpoints:

1) In-province status may also look at where you went to high school, depending on university, and many universities won't consider you in-province if you only move for the purposes of undergrad. I went to HS in AB and retained my in-province status throughout university.

2) Yes they do? It is however more difficult (but not impossible) to get an A+ in an American university because they're more likely to curve grades to an A as the ceiling, and an A+ is at the discretion of a prof (one prof gave me a 100% = A. One prof gave me 95 = A+).

3) Eh. I went to an Ivy League university and found the difficulty comparable to what I went through in my year in a Canadian undergrad.

4) Financial aid is available depending on the university. I paid less in the US than I did in Canada, including room and board

5) See 1. That said, I believe Western and Mac are the only two universities in ON that look at IP status.

Having said that, I would have gotten into med school 4 years sooner if I'd done undergrad in Canada, i.e. out of second year instead of after a master's (although maybe if I'd applied to my IP schools the first time around I would've gotten in straight out of undergrad lol). I don't believe it's possible to get in that early anymore. Do I regret it? Absolutely not: the undergrad experience in the US, if you go to an Ivy, is way better: there's way more $$ for research, there's way more on-campus socialization, and there's a club for everything. Plus, now that most Canadian med schools don't have prereqs, you don't have to worry about your GPA getting killed by organic chemistry. I would 100% do it again.

As for applying to US med schools: honestly, it's luck of the draw. I had excellent stats (521/3.8something) and ECs but didn't get in to any US MD/PhD programs, but one of my friends who went to McGill for undergrad+grad did.

[zoxy]

1 hour ago, insomnias said:

Counterpoints:

1) In-province status may also look at where you went to high school, depending on university, and many universities won't consider you in-province if you only move for the purposes of undergrad. I went to HS in AB and retained my in-province status throughout university.

2) Yes they do? It is however more difficult (but not impossible) to get an A+ in an American university because they're more likely to curve grades to an A as the ceiling, and an A+ is at the discretion of a prof (one prof gave me a 100% = A. One prof gave me 95 = A+).

3) Eh. I went to an Ivy League university and found the difficulty comparable to what I went through in my year in a Canadian undergrad.

4) Financial aid is available depending on the university. I paid less in the US than I did in Canada, including room and board

5) See 1. That said, I believe Western and Mac are the only two universities in ON that look at IP status.

Having said that, I would have gotten into med school 4 years sooner if I'd done undergrad in Canada, i.e. out of second year instead of after a master's (although maybe if I'd applied to my IP schools the first time around I would've gotten in straight out of undergrad lol). I don't believe it's possible to get in that early anymore. Do I regret it? Absolutely not: the undergrad experience in the US, if you go to an Ivy, is way better: there's way more $$ for research, there's way more on-campus socialization, and there's a club for everything. Plus, now that most Canadian med schools don't have prereqs, you don't have to worry about your GPA getting killed by organic chemistry. I would 100% do it again.

As for applying to US med schools: honestly, it's luck of the draw. I had excellent stats (521/3.8something) and ECs but didn't get in to any US MD/PhD programs, but one of my friends who went to McGill for undergrad+grad did.

Did you even read what OP wrote? Or are you being a devil's advocate for the sake of being a devil's advocate?

You mention going to high school and qualifying as IP but OP mentioned they're attending high school in the US.

Their options are decent state school vs Ontario school. They weren't talking about an Ivy. Not all schools allow A+ grading. I know my Ivy-Plus school didn't have it and neither do Harvard, Dartmouth and Yale where my friends went. Brown doesn't even have any + or - grades, it's just A/B/C. I think Columbia and Cornell are the only schools that allow A+'s and it's exceedingly rare there. Plus, who wants to go to Cornell? It's basically a state school in the middle of nowhere. 

Also your comment about Md/PhD is irrelevant. Md/PhD funding comes from the MSTP program of the NIH. The requirements for the MSTP are having a greencard/being a citizen. If a program takes a non-American, they have to pay all of the costs from their own pockets and not the NIH. So if you look at the application requirements for MD/PhD, the vast majority say that international students are ineligible for Md/PhD. There are a few exception for the schools that have insane amounts of funding like WashU or Harvard, but again the vast majority don't take internationals. Just compare the matriculant/applicant rate for American applicants vs Internationals.

Your anecdotes don't jive with data or OP's question.

Md/Phd Links:

https://www.aamc.org/media/6146/download

https://www.aamc.org/media/6136/download

Ivy-Plus College Grading:

https://poorvucenter.yale.edu/YaleGrading

https://handbook.fas.harvard.edu/book/grades-and-honors

http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com/current/orc/Regulations/Undergraduate-Study/Requirements-for-the-Degree-of-Bachelor-of-Arts/Scholarship-Ratings

https://history.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/major-minor/grading-guidelines.html

https://registrar.uchicago.edu/records/grading/

https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/registrar/course-enrollment/grades

 

[overtest123]

3 hours ago, zoxy said:

This is an easy choice. Go to school in Canada for multiple reasons.

1) Studying in the US means that you will be Out-of-Province for every Canadian medical school since you'd have spent both high school and undergrad in the US. It is an order of magnitude more difficult to get into Canadian schools as an international. Since you're not an American citizen, you won't be in state for any of the public medical schools and staying there won't benefit you in any way. The vast majority of public medical school's don't accept internationals.

2)American schools don't have A+ grading. This will hurt you when applying to school in Canada since your grades will automatically be lower. McGill is the only Canadian school that has such a grading system and many of its graduates struggle when it comes to GPA conversions.

3)American schools are tougher graders, especially if you go to a good flagship state school like Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, UVA, UWashington, etc. Grades are on a curve and only 10-15 percent of a class gets an A. And unlike Canada where anyone with a pulse can study science in a university, state flagships have selective admission and the kids are smart. In Canada, only UofT grades on a strict curve (it too should be avoided), other schools are generally much easier.

4)Since you have to pay out of state/international tuition the cost of undergrad be much lower in Canada. Same thing for Medical School in the US. Will you be able to pay out-of-state or private medical school tuition for four years without US federal loans? Private US loans will require a co-signer. Map out the costs and your financial support to see if it's even an option.

5)You're quoting the Ontario admissions rate which is the wrong way to go about it since there's very little IP preference in Ontario. Go to University in another province to markedly increase your chances of getting into school. It will only hinder you for McMaster (only Ontario school to have IP preference) but gaining IP status in a non-Ontario province will greatly increase your odds. Also, the median admission MCAT for internationals in the US is a 515. There's a lot of self selection involved in applying to the US for medical schools. Comparing admissions chances at face value is meaningless if you don't know the underlying characteristics of the two applicant populations. Most importantly, applying to the US with a Canadian undergrad won't greatly disadvantage if you do the requisite clinical volunteering and shadowing that American schools want. Not having IP status in Canada will suck. Even if Ontario is your only option, I'd still pick it over being an international in the US.

Thank you for your advice.

2) I wasn't aware Canadian schools use A+ grading, that is good to know!

4) For tuition, the cost difference for UG is around 1k a year, so it's not that big, but definitely much more expensive in US for med school. 

5) I guess I wasn't clear with my wording. My intention was to say that other provinces excluding Ontario have IP preference and that limits me to apply to mostly only Ontario schools. In terms of the applicant population for both countries, what's your opinion? Do you think the international US pool or the Ontario pool is full of more competitive applicants? And lastly, how much of an advantage/benefit is there to attending a US UG over a Canadian UG for US med school (this is a question I've been thinking about forever)

[overtest123]

2 hours ago, insomnias said:

Counterpoints:

1) In-province status may also look at where you went to high school, depending on university, and many universities won't consider you in-province if you only move for the purposes of undergrad. I went to HS in AB and retained my in-province status throughout university.

2) Yes they do? It is however more difficult (but not impossible) to get an A+ in an American university because they're more likely to curve grades to an A as the ceiling, and an A+ is at the discretion of a prof (one prof gave me a 100% = A. One prof gave me 95 = A+).

3) Eh. I went to an Ivy League university and found the difficulty comparable to what I went through in my year in a Canadian undergrad.

4) Financial aid is available depending on the university. I paid less in the US than I did in Canada, including room and board

5) See 1. That said, I believe Western and Mac are the only two universities in ON that look at IP status.

Having said that, I would have gotten into med school 4 years sooner if I'd done undergrad in Canada, i.e. out of second year instead of after a master's (although maybe if I'd applied to my IP schools the first time around I would've gotten in straight out of undergrad lol). I don't believe it's possible to get in that early anymore. Do I regret it? Absolutely not: the undergrad experience in the US, if you go to an Ivy, is way better: there's way more $$ for research, there's way more on-campus socialization, and there's a club for everything. Plus, now that most Canadian med schools don't have prereqs, you don't have to worry about your GPA getting killed by organic chemistry. I would 100% do it again.

As for applying to US med schools: honestly, it's luck of the draw. I had excellent stats (521/3.8something) and ECs but didn't get in to any US MD/PhD programs, but one of my friends who went to McGill for undergrad+grad did.

Based on your post, I assume you've attended UG at both US and Canada? Can I ask did you end up in US or Canada for med school.

I thought people usually like to describe Canada med school as a lottery process (but I think luck factors in for either country), which country do you think has more unpredictable admissions?

[insomnias]

2 hours ago, zoxy said:

Did you even read what OP wrote? Or are you being a devil's advocate for the sake of being a devil's advocate?

You mention going to high school and qualifying as IP but OP mentioned they're attending high school in the US.

Their options are decent state school vs Ontario school. They weren't talking about an Ivy. Not all schools allow A+ grading. I know my Ivy-Plus school didn't have it and neither do Harvard, Dartmouth and Yale where my friends went. Brown doesn't even have any + or - grades, it's just A/B/C. I think Columbia and Cornell are the only schools that allow A+'s and it's exceedingly rare there. Plus, who wants to go to Cornell? It's basically a state school in the middle of nowhere. 

Also your comment about Md/PhD is irrelevant. Md/PhD funding comes from the MSTP program of the NIH. The requirements for the MSTP are having a greencard/being a citizen. If a program takes a non-American, they have to pay all of the costs from their own pockets and not the NIH. So if you look at the application requirements for MD/PhD, the vast majority say that international students are ineligible for Md/PhD. There are a few exception for the schools that have insane amounts of funding like WashU or Harvard, but again the vast majority don't take internationals. Just compare the matriculant/applicant rate for American applicants vs Internationals.

Your anecdotes don't jive with data or OP's question.

Md/Phd Links:

https://www.aamc.org/media/6146/download

https://www.aamc.org/media/6136/download

Ivy-Plus College Grading:

https://poorvucenter.yale.edu/YaleGrading

https://handbook.fas.harvard.edu/book/grades-and-honors

http://dartmouth.smartcatalogiq.com/current/orc/Regulations/Undergraduate-Study/Requirements-for-the-Degree-of-Bachelor-of-Arts/Scholarship-Ratings

https://history.northwestern.edu/undergraduate/major-minor/grading-guidelines.html

https://registrar.uchicago.edu/records/grading/

https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/registrar/course-enrollment/grades

 

Fair points. I read OP's OP poorly; thanks for clarifying all that.

22 minutes ago, overtest123 said:

Based on your post, I assume you've attended UG at both US and Canada? Can I ask did you end up in US or Canada for med school.

I thought people usually like to describe Canada med school as a lottery process (but I think luck factors in for either country), which country do you think has more unpredictable admissions?

I ended up in Canada, and my perception is that admissions is more unpredictable here if you take citizenship out of the equation.

[zoxy]

58 minutes ago, overtest123 said:

Based on your post, I assume you've attended UG at both US and Canada? Can I ask did you end up in US or Canada for med school.

I thought people usually like to describe Canada med school as a lottery process (but I think luck factors in for either country), which country do you think has more unpredictable admissions?

I did my undergrad in the US and it was definitely a sub optimal decision. It basically made it impossible for me to get an interview in Canada except with a 99th percentile MCAT since my GPA was below a 3.8 and my IP school doesn't look at MCAT pre-interview. I was lucky enough to ultimately get that score but you can imagine how nerve-racking it was knowing that my only shot at getting into any school in Canada was a 522+ MCAT. I was also at an Ivy-Plus school on scholarship and I was studying Math/Econ until second year. If I had been a pre-med from the start, I would never have gone there in the first place, despite it being my dream school from the age of 15.

It is easier for an American citizen to get into an American medical school than it is for a Canadian to get into a Canadian school. However, as a Canadian, you'd still run into a lot of problems applying to the US even if you did your undergrad there. Most importantly, I don't think an American undergrad will be that much better than a Canadian undergrad for med school in the US. You won't have in-state status anywhere and will have to apply mostly to private schools anyway. But you'd be hurting yourself quite a bit by being OOP everywhere in Canada since you went to high school in the US as well.

I actually think that for an individual school, the Canadian system is less random. If you have a 3.9+ and meet the MCAT cutoffs, you're more than likely to get an interview at Western for example. A good CARS and 3.9 GPA and a decent CASPer will guarantee an interview at Mac as an IP.

What saves the US is the sheer number of schools. People regularly apply to over 30 schools. If you cast a wide enough net, you'll probably catch something. I'd still lean heavily towards a Canadian school and especially a non-Ontario one where you could get IP status.

[JohnGrisham]

4 hours ago, zoxy said:

)American schools are tougher graders, especially if you go to a good flagship state school like Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, UVA, UWashington, etc. Grades are on a curve and only 10-15 percent of a class gets an A. And unlike Canada where anyone with a pulse can study science in a university, state flagships have selective admission and the kids are smart. In Canada, only UofT grades on a strict curve (it too should be avoided), other schools are generally much easier.

This is very much so the opposite of the students I know who did undergrad in the U.S., and peers who did exchanges back in the day. My old med school classmates who did US undergrads also generally felt getting strong grades was easier in your average state US school compared to  the "tougher" schools in Canada such as UofT, McGill and UBC.

Surely it cuts both ways, some US schools are easier to get high grades and other more difficult - much like how there is significant variation amongst canadian undergrads also.

OP, go where you think you'll do the best, and would prefer to ultimately go to medical school - I would reccomend a mid-sized canadian undergrad - cheaper, good education and reasonable to get decent grades for a Canadian undergrad. Then you can apply to both Canada and the US for medical school etcs.

[indefatigable]

6 hours ago, zoxy said:

3)American schools are tougher graders, especially if you go to a good flagship state school like Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, UVA, UWashington, etc. Grades are on a curve and only 10-15 percent of a class gets an A. And unlike Canada where anyone with a pulse can study science in a university, state flagships have selective admission and the kids are smart. In Canada, only UofT grades on a strict curve (it too should be avoided), other schools are generally much easier.

2 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

This is very much so the opposite of the students I know who did undergrad in the U.S., and peers who did exchanges back in the day. My old med school classmates who did US undergrads also generally felt getting strong grades was easier in your average state US school compared to  the "tougher" schools in Canada such as UofT, McGill and UBC.

Surely it cuts both ways, some US schools are easier to get high grades and other more difficult - much like how there is significant variation amongst canadian undergrads also.

I think it's hard to quantify the debate.  There's someone in the US obsessed with grade inflation and has created a website about it.

http://www.gradeinflation.com

Big observations

• There's differences in both inflation and in grading patterns (i.e. average GPA).
• Private schools generally have had more grade inflation since 2000 except for some very high-prestige schools - e.g. Princeton, Emory, Brown (although it had the highest GPA too)
• Community colleges have had the least grade inflation
• State schools are all over the map with South Carolina matching the private schools Gardner Webb for inflation; otoh UW-Milwaukee has actually had grades go down!
• Finally, for the Canadian schools mentioned : Brock, Calgary, Lethbridge, Simon Fraser, Waterloo, Western Ontario - Simon Fraser has had the least inflation with Brock having the lowest average GPA

I personally think UofT and Waterloo are two of the more difficult schools to get a strong GPA especially considering strength of students (high-school GPA, etc).  

 I also do think that some smaller, primarily undergraduate colleges focused on teaching do present an opportunity for those that are able to consider them as having a model which is easier to attain a higher GPA.  They do not typically attract as "strong" students as some of the larger universities, and the mission of the faculty is teaching, so if one were able to maturely understand that one could do well (realizing that some research opportunities could be limited),.   

However, I think with the advent of dedicated teacher/lecturers at large research universities, I think it's possible with judicious program/course/section/ selection to do well there too.  

Finally, from personal experience in an academic environment - there is a LOT of variability - different sections, departments, grading styles, etc..   so choosing a school based on perceived GPA, but ignoring social support, desire to do major, research opportunities etc.. may not work well either.

6 hours ago, zoxy said:

2)American schools don't have A+ grading. This will hurt you when applying to school in Canada since your grades will automatically be lower. McGill is the only Canadian school that has such a grading system and many of its graduates struggle when it comes to GPA conversions.

Actually that helps McGill grads everywhere I think except in the rest of Quebec and UBC.  Everywhere else, especially Ontario, the "A"s get converted to 4.0 the same as "A+" at another place.  

 

[zoxy]

2 hours ago, indefatigable said:

Actually that helps McGill grads everywhere I think except in the rest of Quebec and UBC.  Everywhere else, especially Ontario, the "A"s get converted to 4.0 the same as "A+" at another place. 

It really hurts when converting to percentages for UBC and UofS and conversion to Manitoba's wonky 4.5 scale. Even if you have a perfect 4.0 from McGill, it converts to a 92 at UBC. A perfect GPA at McGill would put you below the mean for OOP who interviewed at UBC.

[indefatigable]

51 minutes ago, zoxy said:

It really hurts when converting to percentages for UBC and UofS and conversion to Manitoba's wonky 4.5 scale. Even if you have a perfect 4.0 from McGill, it converts to a 92 at UBC. A perfect GPA at McGill would put you below the mean for OOP who interviewed at UBC.

Thanks for pointing that out - I know less about admission policies at Manitoba and Saskatchewan..  

That is kind of crazy at UBC - to be fair A+ converts to 95 and that may be low in a decade the way things are going.