Likelihood of switching from Software Engineering -> Med school

[KanyeEast]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to hear the thoughts of people much more knowledgeable in the med school application process than myself, about my potential chances of getting into med school if I were to attempt making the switch from the field I am currently in. A bit of background information about myself:

 

-I'm a resident of Quebec.

-English is my first language, my french would definitely need some work if I were to apply to french med schools, which I am willing to do.

-I'm currently around half way done my bachelors in Computer Science, with a GPA of 3.75/4.3 (Concordia Student).

-I have already completed all the physics pre-requisites, CHEM 1 & 2, and BIO 1, in cegep. I am therefore missing around 4-5 classes I believe. One of which, Human Anatomy, I plan on taking as my last general elective as part of my university degree.

-My Cegep grades are quite bad, I graduated with around a 30 r-score.

-Because of internships, switching from engineering, and generally being a young idiot (I failed a 200 level class but since it was a first year class was able to re-take it and scored well on it), I most definitely won't have completed my degree in the standard full-time student time frame, I've read for some Canadian schools this may be an issue.

 

Having internship experience under my belt, I find myself sometimes unsure in my career in tech, and so I hastily put together the following plan:

Work full time for 1-3 years, put money away and take the remaining 4 science classes I am missing as a night time student. Get some volunteering and/or shadowing experience in the medical field and then apply for med school. Generally speaking, how realistic is this plan? I prefer to work first for a few years because well I hate debt, and I always like being able to keep my options open.

 

Also worth mentioning, I don't mean for this post to come off as dismissive of the difficulties of getting into med school, as I can see how it sounds like I'm shopping around for Plan Bs and just chose medicine because it pay wells (and to a certain degree that's definitely true, pay is indeed important to me). I understand how hard it is and have the utmost respect for our health prospective professionals. I'm just a really physically active guy who likes tech, and wanted to do a little research about the possibility of getting into other fields that don't involve sitting behind a computer all day. 

Thanks!

[indefatigable]

At the moment your GPA is not competitive for medical school.   

The good news is your only half-way through so you still have some time to improve.  But, you would probably need to get your term GPAs up to 4.1+/4.3 to stand a chance.

 Your best chance would probably be at McGill, as you are IP, although it is getting more competitive each year - however interview is based on 70% GPA which is more controllable and objective.  

Your non-academics/ECs do not stand out either, but this won't be that much of an issue in Quebec - you should continue to work on them, but not at the expense of GPA.

I would suggest trying to seriously improve your GPA - try to make it "perfect" e.g. 4.3/4.3.  If you can do that for the next couple of years, then you are partway there.  I would prioritize GPA over pre-reqs and everything else.  Those can be done later.  

I wouldn't touch the French schools unless you are absolutely confident you can perform optimally within such an environment - especially learning and communication (read/write, speak.. etc).  If you are truly bilingual (i.e. can learn/think/read/reason effectively in French), then the French schools are the path of least resistance; otherwise, doing the MCAT is easier.  

Once you improve your GPA you can then adjust and make more plans like MCAT.  You may have an shot over time at some other schools outside Quebec depending on GPA, MCAT and ECs.  

 It's really a battle/commitment to get into medical school - but like anything it means taking things one step at a time.

[KanyeEast]

6 minutes ago, indefatigable said:

At the moment your GPA is not competitive for medical school.   

The good news is your only half-way through so you still have some time to improve.  But, you would need to get your term GPAs up to 4.1+/4.3 to stand a chance.

 Your best chance would probably be at McGill, as you are IP, although it is getting more competitive each year - however interview is based on 70% GPA which is more controllable and objective.  

Your non-academics/ECs do not stand out either, but this won't be that much of an issue in Quebec - you should continue to work on them, but not at the expense of GPA.

I would suggest trying to seriously improve your GPA - try to make it "perfect" e.g. 4.3/4.3.  If you can do that for the next couple of years, then you are partway there.  I would prioritize GPA over pre-reqs and everything else.  Those can be done later.  

I wouldn't touch the French schools unless you are absolutely confident you can perform optimally within such an environment - especially learning and communication (read/write, speak.. etc).  

Once you improve your GPA you can then adjust and make more plans like MCAT.  You may have an outside shot over time at some other schools outside Quebec depending on GPA, MCAT and ECs.  

 It's really a battle/commitment to get into medical school - but like anything it means one step at the time.  

Firstly, thanks for the reply! 

So it really is that much about GPA.

A few more questions for you:

1) What sort of stuff really holds weight in the EC department in the eyes of the admissions board? For example, does my work as an engineer hold any weight? How about study abroad experience, if it makes any difference, I will be spending a semester studying abroad at a top school (NUS) in my upcoming semester (however all those classes will as a result be pass/fail).

2) Can you elaborate on what you mean by non-academics not being as important in Quebec? Do med schools in Canada weigh them differently? If so, are my best chances for admission still in Quebec due to caps on out-of-province students?

[KitKatCo]

13 minutes ago, KanyeEast said:

Firstly, thanks for the reply! 

So it really is that much about GPA.

A few more questions for you:

1) What sort of stuff really holds weight in the EC department in the eyes of the admissions board? For example, does my work as an engineer hold any weight? How about study abroad experience, if it makes any difference, I will be spending a semester studying abroad at a top school (NUS) in my upcoming semester (however all those classes will as a result be pass/fail).

2) Can you elaborate on what you mean by non-academics not being as important in Quebec? Do med schools in Canada weigh them differently? If so, are my best chances for admission still in Quebec due to caps on out-of-province students?

2) Quebec french schools do NOT look at extracurriculars at all. It's pure CRU+CASPer+MMIs. CRU is a weighted GPA calculation based on the schools' own estimation of how competitive/difficult your undergrad was. Ontario doesn't have quite the same OOP restrictions as other provinces do but it is extremely competitive, and most require the MCAT.

[mtlwatch2029]

22 hours ago, indefatigable said:

At the moment your GPA is not competitive for medical school.   

The good news is your only half-way through so you still have some time to improve.  But, you would probably need to get your term GPAs up to 4.1+/4.3 to stand a chance.

 Your best chance would probably be at McGill, as you are IP, although it is getting more competitive each year - however interview is based on 70% GPA which is more controllable and objective.  

Your non-academics/ECs do not stand out either, but this won't be that much of an issue in Quebec - you should continue to work on them, but not at the expense of GPA.

I would suggest trying to seriously improve your GPA - try to make it "perfect" e.g. 4.3/4.3.  If you can do that for the next couple of years, then you are partway there.  I would prioritize GPA over pre-reqs and everything else.  Those can be done later.  

I wouldn't touch the French schools unless you are absolutely confident you can perform optimally within such an environment - especially learning and communication (read/write, speak.. etc).  If you are truly bilingual (i.e. can learn/think/read/reason effectively in French), then the French schools are the path of least resistance; otherwise, doing the MCAT is easier.  

Once you improve your GPA you can then adjust and make more plans like MCAT.  You may have an shot over time at some other schools outside Quebec depending on GPA, MCAT and ECs.  

 It's really a battle/commitment to get into medical school - but like anything it means taking things one step at a time.

 

I strongly disagree with your statement that a 4.1+ GPA is required for admission to McGill medicine. This is just not based on any available evidence. To start off, provided that the OP does not have A+ grades (which at Concordia are responsible for the 4.3 scale) having GPA above 4.0 will offer zero benefit to him at McGill. Without A+ grades, McGill and Concordia have a 1 to 1 GPA conversion.

 

Second, you simply don't need a 4.0 GPA to get accepted. Average accepted last year was 3.87, the year before I recall it being 3.82. The average interview GPA isn't even 4.0, in-fact if you look at last years admissions statistics most 4.0 applicants weren't even accepted. You simply don't need a 4.0 GPA to be competitive at McGill. Hell, average applicant GPA this year is 3.67 and average interview GPA is 3.87. In-fact, average applicant GPA and interview GPA is actually down from last year.

 

I agree that OP's GPA isnt very competitive (although I know a number of people admitted with 3.7 range GPA's who had advanced degrees). But saying that he needs a 4.1+ GPA at McGill is simply not true and not grounded in reality. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to stand corrected but I know both from personal experience and McGill's official statistics that what you're saying is misleading to the OP. On top of this, while EC's are not a factor for French schools, your curriculum vitae is worth 10% of McGill's selection process. It is also reviewed independently after your academic credentials. A weak CV can and has ruined potential applications.

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/after-youve-applied/currentapplicantstats

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/prospective/our-statistics

[indefatigable]

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[mtlwatch2029]

13 minutes ago, indefatigable said:

My thinking was trying to help the OP with having possibly a competitive application at more than one medical school (McGill), especially given that his first two years aren't that strong.  

I am familiar with the conversion  - and there's no way to know without calculating directly.  But, the 4-4.1+ would probably safely convert to around 3.9.  It's always good to try and be a bit above average and to have a margin of error.  

If you look at the mode GPA for IP accepted applicants it's 4.0 - it doesn't mean the OP needs a 4.0, but the average GPA interview interview for IP invite is 3.89 this year.  

Yes you're right that without knowing the OP's grades specifically its impossible to know, but I was assuming he does not have any A+ grades, meaning a 1 to 1 conversion. 

Secondly, I provided this link above 

 

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/after-youve-applied/currentapplicantstats

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/prospective/our-statistics

This year, mode GPA for interviews is 3.95 and average interview GPA is 3.87. Your numbers are from last year. Also since you seem well enough versed in this stuff, the mode GPA number isn't a particularly useful statistic given McGill's selection process (I dont know why they include it). If you look at the numbers from the year you're quoting (2020), mode GPA was higher between interviews and admitted, but average GPA was lower. Mode GPA just represents the most common GPA in the sequence, given that McGill weights the interview as 100% for the basis of admission, all that mode GPA is telling you is that that year a lot of 4.0 students also had strong interviews. The GPA and whatever the mode GPA is plays no role in admission, its just the basis for the interview and nothing GPA related is of much use beyond the interview point.

And I did make a mistake, the average applicant GPA this year was 3.69, not 3.67. Given that the interview is weight at 100%, 1/4 applicants getting an interview is a pretty encouraging statistic.

[indefatigable]

22 hours ago, KanyeEast said:

Firstly, thanks for the reply! 

So it really is that much about GPA.

A few more questions for you:

1) What sort of stuff really holds weight in the EC department in the eyes of the admissions board? For example, does my work as an engineer hold any weight? How about study abroad experience, if it makes any difference, I will be spending a semester studying abroad at a top school (NUS) in my upcoming semester (however all those classes will as a result be pass/fail).

2) Can you elaborate on what you mean by non-academics not being as important in Quebec? Do med schools in Canada weigh them differently? If so, are my best chances for admission still in Quebec due to caps on out-of-province students?

Yes - GPA is the biggest component.  

1) Professional experience can help - at McGill your CV is worth 10% of a pre-interview score.  I don't know if it's possible, but I would suggest considering studying abroad in a French environment with P/F if you are interested in pursuing studies or improving your French.  

2) Aside from the 10% component at McGill, non-academic are not evaluated in Quebec.  At almost every other school outside of QC they are - however, given that you are IP in QC, I think it makes the most sense to prioritize GPA.  As another poster mentioned the French school look at GPA differently - I have no idea where your program would stand.   

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/prospective/selection-process

[mtlwatch2029]

9 minutes ago, indefatigable said:

Yes - GPA is the biggest component.  

1) Professional experience can help - at McGill your CV is worth 10% of a pre-interview score.  I don't know if it's possible, but I would suggest considering studying abroad in a French environment with P/F if you are interested in pursuing studies or improving your French.  

2) Aside from the 10% component at McGill, non-academic are not evaluated in Quebec.  At almost every other school outside of QC they are - however, given that you are IP in QC, I think it makes the most sense to prioritize GPA.  As another poster mentioned the French school look at GPA differently - I have no idea where your program would stand.   

https://www.mcgill.ca/medadmissions/prospective/selection-process

I also think its worth mentioning that OP will benefit from the 7% academic context that McGill factors into their academic review, as he's getting a professional degree. It'll probably be a very minor addition (generally in mtl its known that the academic context score is more substantial when considering advanced degrees and confers a notable advantage) but it'll help.

[indefatigable]

.

[mtlwatch2029]

2 hours ago, indefatigable said:

The average applicant GPA doesn't help the OP with an interview - the number of applicants has increased too.  

The mean interview IP invite GPA is 3.87/4.0 - the OP is currently at 3.75/4.30 halfway through their degree.  They are not starting from scratch.    

With 4.1+/4.3 over the next terms, they may be able to increase their average to ~3.9/4.3.  It would still probably put them on the very lower end of interview invites, but may give them a chance not only at McGill, but also outside of the province.   

Given your statement, the average GPA for interview invites for non-advanced degree holders (like the OP) may be even higher since the OP will only get a "very minor addition".

Not sure what you're litigating here. For one, the number of applicants fluctuates every year. I've seen it as low as 900, and I wasn't saying that applicant GPA average will help with an interview.

The minor addition is from the 7% academic context, within the grand scheme of things having a portion of that 7% added to their preinterview score wont make a colossal difference but will help out their application. All I was saying is that generally its pretty well known at least for McGill that having an advanced degree (i.e. masters) will incur a greater benefit in the academic context section. Part of that score is the difficulty of your undergrad too, by the way. So its entirely possible that GPA's are higher overall with those not holding advanced degrees, it could also just mean those with higher GPA's had weaker CV's, or partook in easier undergraduate degrees and such didn't benefit from the academic context bonus.

Again though, I'm not sure where you're getting that OP having a 3.9 GPA would put him at the lower end of interview invitees. It would put him above average. I'm sure you know that the average interview GPA being 3.87 means those with GPA's both under and over that 3.87 figure were successful applicants. As you said, it impossible to convert the OP's GPA to a 4.0 scale, but under the assumption that he doesn't have any A+ grades (which I think is a safe bet) then his GPA is in-fact 3.75. Also, engineering degrees take 4 years, this should give him ample time to raise his GPA to somewhere in the 3.8 range (on a 4.0 scale), which will make him competitive at McGill provided he has a solid CV and performs well on the Casper test. All of the statistics we have access to supports this.

And I'm not sure if you're from Montreal (I am), but generally "on the ground" a 3.8+ GPA is considered competitive for McGill. A lot of this has to due with Casper being weighted 20% in the pre interview score, which is a sizeable chunk. I anecdotally can say that everyone I've known with a 4.0 GPA was rejected, but those with lower GPA's (although still very high) were accepted.

 

[indefatigable]

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[mtlwatch2029]

21 minutes ago, indefatigable said:

I'm not sure why you started to begin with an accusatory post - but you did.  

Your implication was that the average applicant GPA had gone down - I was simply pointing that the number of applicants had also gone up quite significantly.

Previously you said that the context for OP's degree would be a "very minor addition".  Now you seem to be hedging your bets.  Regardless, the OP is not enrolled in a Master's degree so it's not something that I would count on.

 The OP has stated that they are half-way through their degree.  

The OP will not be able to increase his GPA to 3.9/4.3 without any A+s and getting 4.1+/4.3 on the Concordia scale.  A+ are not common, but they are given out at Concordia.  

A 3.9/4.3 with A+s will convert to a lower GPA on the McGill scale - hard to tell exactly, but with a bit of luck ~3.8/4.0.  We don't know that average interview invite GPA will be in a few years - it's safe to say it's unlikely to be smaller.  Assuming that it's around 3.9/4.0 (a bit above this year's 3.87), then the 3.8/4.0 will give them a chance.

GPA is 70% of the pre-interview score; CV is 10%. 

I honestly don't feel like engaging on any more discussion on this.  

I started off my comment like that because it seemed like you were challenging my points, and I can't really see why you'd do that because all I did was regurgitate McGill's official numbers.

I go to Concordia, you don't have to explain to me how they're GPA scale works. I stated something very simply; under the assumption that the OP does not have any A+ grades his GPA is a 1 to 1 conversion. The only difference between each schools grading scale is that A+ from Concordia will be considered A's at McGill and be given their associated value. A 4.3 (straight A+'s) at Concordia will be a 4.0 at McGill . A 4.0 at Concordia, obtained through A grades and not a mix of A+'s and lower grades will also be a 4.0 at McGill. As such, if the OP raises his GPA WITHOUT the inclusion of A+ grades, his GPA will convert 1 to 1 on McGill's scale. The only instance where your GPA guesstimating makes sense is if the OP's current GPA is the product of some A+ grades, which, as I clearly stated in my comment I was not considering. And even then, OP could calculate his GPA just by reducing his A+ grades to A grades. Theres no magic involved. Hence, OP does not have to try and get a 4.1+ GPA because of some mystical GPA conversion. All he has to do is calculate everything with an A as the maximum possible grade, and voila, he knows his GPA. Not luck involved.

That's why I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. You basically rehashed what I already said in my comment, it's as if you're disagreeing with me but saying the same thing. If theres something you disagree with me on, like I'm making a miscalculation or quoted an incorrect number, please tell me. But I don't see anything 

And GPA is not 70% of the pre-interview. Its 90% of 70%, which equates to 63%. The other 7% is the academic context score.

[indefatigable]

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[mtlwatch2029]

Just now, indefatigable said:

If the OP could pluck As out the air - I'm sure the OP would.  Thinking that one can rationally aim for A vs A+ or A- is absurd and bound to lead to error and disappointment.  

But that isn't the point that was being made. It was a simple explanation that the OP doesn't need to do any guesstimating or involve any "luck" in determining what his GPA would be or what grades he needs. He simply needs to consider any A+ grades to be A's. That's it. He could do it right now, hence telling him he should aim for a hypothetical 4.1+ GPA because of an uncertain GPA conversion is is silly. There's no uncertainty and there is no luck involved.

[indefatigable]

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[mtlwatch2029]

1 minute ago, indefatigable said:

The OP doesn't have a competitive GPA and needs to raise their GPA. 

Fine man, we already agreed on this. I think its pretty obvious why I had an issue with your wording and I explained it pretty clearly. Telling the OP he has to raise his GPA is reasonable. Telling them to shoot for a hypothetical, very high GPA because of a non-existent mystery conversion factor is just silly.