Non-clinical Career Paths Post-MD Completion

[redman123123]

Has anyone considered non-clinical paths following med school and forgoing residency entirely? I ask because I have quite a few of my Canadian and American MD friends that have done this/are considering it seriously. 
 

They are gunning for either high finance roles (IB, ER, VC/HF/PE), healthcare consulting, big pharma (med/reg affairs, business dev, strategy), and biotech startups. A few have successfully made the pivot to the finance/consulting side, and are doing some pretty high impact work in the early-stage biotech space. I also know their compensation is quite lucrative and more than what they would make as a practicing physician. Btw, they all went to the US. 
 

Thoughts? 

[Bambi]

It seems to me that one is better off to be qualified to practice before taking this jump, and doing residency is well worth doing, otherwise this path is effectively lost forever. And, as you say, this path is available in USA only. Given the gun violence, the turmoil in the US, I wouldn't move there if I would be offered 5M a year for life. In my opinion, it is not a safe environment in which to live or bring up children.

[unarmed walrus]

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[Bambi]

You are entirely correct about Cambridge and there are many cities like that. However, gun killing in schools, places of work and in other situations in US has almost reached sport status. The idiotic Trumpist consider it their right to destroy democracy if they can and injuries or killing is just a part of this process. We each have our own views. Canada is much safer, calmer and has no gun problem close to the US. We are entirely different societies and I will bring up my children in Canada and can never be tempted to move to the US.

[redman123123]

Would appreciate this thread not to be hijacked discussing the above. Thanks! 

[shikimate]

In USA you only need 1 year of residency to obtain an unrestricted license in some states, so it's certainly more plausible to do a "quick" transitional year, get a license, and go do something else.

I do know someone who declined 2 Canadian medical school offers in favor of VC. He went to Boston or NYC area I believe. He benefited greatly from the market crash in 2009 and the rise of crypto, and nowadays he's long retired and just tinkering with things for fun.

His view is that he could go back and ace the MCAT any day (he scored 42T on his first try) and get accepted to med school anytime he wants (he got 2 Ontario offers after 3rd year), but VC opportunities may only come once a lifetime. A very smart and brave man he was; a cut above the rest of us plebeians and bourgeoise.

[robclem21]

If you are going to go this route, why bother pursuing an MD at all. It's an ineffective utilization of time, tuition money, and limited spots for people interested in clinical work. Going this route, you would be better getting a PhD and at least becoming an expert in something that you will be able to meaningfully contribute to a role/company.

Frankly, with only a 4 year MD degree and no residency, you have essentially no practical medical knowledge, and no area of expertise that would make you an asset in any medically centred role. At least in Canada, an MD without residency training provides no prestige.

TBH, this route seems like a waste to me, and theres no reason something like this couldn't be pursued on the side of a less rigorous clinical schedule once you actually complete your training. 

[1029384756md]

18 hours ago, redman123123 said:

Has anyone considered non-clinical paths following med school and forgoing residency entirely? I ask because I have quite a few of my Canadian and American MD friends that have done this/are considering it seriously. 
 

They are gunning for either high finance roles (IB, ER, VC/HF/PE), healthcare consulting, big pharma (med/reg affairs, business dev, strategy), and biotech startups. A few have successfully made the pivot to the finance/consulting side, and are doing some pretty high impact work in the early-stage biotech space. I also know their compensation is quite lucrative and more than what they would make as a practicing physician. Btw, they all went to the US. 
 

Thoughts? 

Yep all these opportunities are best found in the US. They are receptive to Canadian MDs in my experience, but you do have to sell yourself well. If it's something you're interested in - go for it! The pay beats clinical work in the long run.

[redman123123]

17 hours ago, robclem21 said:

If you are going to go this route, why bother pursuing an MD at all. It's an ineffective utilization of time, tuition money, and limited spots for people interested in clinical work. Going this route, you would be better getting a PhD and at least becoming an expert in something that you will be able to meaningfully contribute to a role/company.

Frankly, with only a 4 year MD degree and no residency, you have essentially no practical medical knowledge, and no area of expertise that would make you an asset in any medically centred role. At least in Canada, an MD without residency training provides no prestige.

TBH, this route seems like a waste to me, and theres no reason something like this couldn't be pursued on the side of a less rigorous clinical schedule once you actually complete your training. 

I disagree on it being a waste. I’d actually go on to say that the macro level impact these individuals have in medicine is much higher than your typical physician in clinic. Plus, the work is more stimulating/interesting. 

[MilkshakeSludge]

Aren't the majority of finance jobs typically gotten via internships/recruiting seasons, where those people visit your schools' business programs? How do medical students get those finance jobs?

[robclem21]

3 hours ago, redman123123 said:

I disagree on it being a waste. I’d actually go on to say that the macro level impact these individuals have in medicine is much higher than your typical physician in clinic. Plus, the work is more stimulating/interesting. 

I wasn't debating the impact that those roles can have on a macro level. I was questioning the added value (if any) provided solely by an MD degree without any additional residency, research, or niche training. At the end of the day, medical school provides only the very basics of medicine with the main focus being basic pathophysiology, basic pharmacology, basic anatomy (if any), and with little to no training in research, basic science, clinical relevance or practice, or public health.

I think the value of an MD alone with no additional training does not provide the knowledge to make any impactful change on a macro level (using just knowledge from an MD degree). I think people who go on to have successful careers in those industries have some prior training/qualifications such as a background in engineering, research, etc. In that case, there is only minimal value to add an MD degree weighing the time/cost risk/benefit.

[redman123123]

22 minutes ago, MilkshakeSludge said:

Aren't the majority of finance jobs typically gotten via internships/recruiting seasons, where those people visit your schools' business programs? How do medical students get those finance jobs?

With the rise of biotech, the need for individuals well versed in the technicals of medicine/life science, as well as the extremely complex/nuanced world of healthcare (at least the perverted US system), from a science and regulatory standpoint, makes for more of an “as needed” recruiting process. The biggest thing is networking of course… and being able to seriously banter ;). None of my friends broke in without grinding coffee chats with funds/banks, etc. Honestly, they were relentless with their reaching out and didn’t give up. In some cases, going to NYC for follow ups with their most high quality informational chats to grab coffee/pints/meal. That’s how you break in. No one submits apps online; that won’t work for us advanced healthcare degree folk. 

[redman123123]

1 minute ago, robclem21 said:

I wasn't debating the impact that those roles can have on a macro level. I was questioning the added value (if any) provided solely by an MD degree without any additional residency, research, or niche training. At the end of the day, medical school provides only the very basics of medicine with the main focus being basic pathophysiology, basic pharmacology, basic anatomy (if any), and with little to no training in research, basic science, clinical relevance or practice, or public health.

I think the value of an MD alone with no additional training does not provide the knowledge to make any impactful change on a macro level (using just knowledge from an MD degree). I think people who go on to have successful careers in those industries have some prior training/qualifications such as a background in engineering, research, etc. In that case, there is only minimal value to add an MD degree weighing the time/cost risk/benefit.

My apologies - I misinterpreted! 
 

I think an MD, as well as a PhD and even PharmD, all do a fairly decent job in providing the foundational elements of the life sciences for an individual to then work off of. They all have very translatable objective skills learned such as critical thinking, analytical, problem solving, etc. You can take this, grind out some side teachings/learnings, and be a pretty damn good asset to have in the biopharma landscape. Of course, you’ll have to teach yourself finance, accounting, DCF/valuations, etc.
 

Now to your point of having a residency under your belt, I 100% agree with you; these individuals are more valuable. With that said, it’s not necessarily needed to break in from what I see. I will add that the individuals that do go in right after the MD have a good amount of quality research under their belt (i.e., immune-oncology). 
 

All in all, yep, an MD is expensive but it adds credibility and is worth it in the grand scheme. Sure, you can do a PhD or PharmD and break into similar roles, but most individuals don’t necessarily pursue an MD straight away knowing they want industry/finance roles. In the grand scheme, the tuition really is negligible. It’s just another path that people could take! If you’re thinking the most efficient, then a PhD probably wins since they don’t have loans. But, they also don’t get the clinical teachings medical school gives. 
 

[1D7]

23 hours ago, robclem21 said:

If you are going to go this route, why bother pursuing an MD at all. It's an ineffective utilization of time, tuition money, and limited spots for people interested in clinical work. Going this route, you would be better getting a PhD and at least becoming an expert in something that you will be able to meaningfully contribute to a role/company.

Frankly, with only a 4 year MD degree and no residency, you have essentially no practical medical knowledge, and no area of expertise that would make you an asset in any medically centred role. At least in Canada, an MD without residency training provides no prestige.

TBH, this route seems like a waste to me, and theres no reason something like this couldn't be pursued on the side of a less rigorous clinical schedule once you actually complete your training. 

I think this is for people who realized medical school was not a good fit for them late into medical school. I like these sort of questions that OP is asking because having more career options is never a bad thing.

To OP, I know a few people who didn't want to do medicine after finishing medical school. All of them ended up doing FM because it was the quickest way toward board certification in a specialty, which meant they could work for money or try to pivot and leave medicine. I haven't seen people able to do anything with just a MD in Canada without completion of a residency.

[Organic Chemistry]

The answers above are all quite informative and interesting. Barring the cost/benefit aside, there is definitely a demand for MD in the consulting industry. Consulting, in theory, requires quantitative research and analytic skills, and qualitative presentation and networking skills. A MD might not prepare for this as well as a MBA, but having a MD from a Canadian Uni is proof that you are a hard worker, and that is enough for many consulting firms. Although this is mainly a phenomenon limited to the US, many consulting firms actively recruit from MD campuses.

In terms of salary, it is debatable, but if you survive in the consulting industry (many use a up or out promotion process), you will definitely make more than a MD ever will, since partners in MBB firms make up to several million a year. But again, consultants work as long or even longer hours than MDs and travel is a major part of the work, where the schedule is typically being away from the office (in another city/country) from Monday-Thursday, and returning to your home office on Friday. And the work, which is just entering values in excel or making Powerpoint decks, then moving up to supervising others making ppt decks, then moving up again where your job is to convince companies to hire your team so that you can do a fancy ppt presentation for them, may not be for everyone with a MD.

[diamondbur]

10 minutes ago, Organic Chemistry said:

The answers above are all quite informative and interesting. Barring the cost/benefit aside, there is definitely a demand for MD in the consulting industry. Consulting, in theory, requires quantitative research and analytic skills, and qualitative presentation and networking skills. A MD might not prepare for this as well as a MBA, but having a MD from a Canadian Uni is proof that you are a hard worker, and that is enough for many consulting firms. Although this is mainly a phenomenon limited to the US, many consulting firms actively recruit from MD campuses.

In terms of salary, it is debatable, but if you survive in the consulting industry (many use a up or out promotion process), you will definitely make more than a MD ever will, since partners in MBB firms make up to several million a year. But again, consultants work as long or even longer hours than MDs and travel is a major part of the work, where the schedule is typically being away from the office (in another city/country) from Monday-Thursday, and returning to your home office on Friday. And the work, which is just entering values in excel or making Powerpoint decks, then moving up to supervising others making ppt decks, then moving up again where your job is to convince companies to hire your team so that you can do a fancy ppt presentation for them, may not be for everyone with a MD.

This is really interesting. Can someone graduating from a DDS (doctor of dental surgery) program in Canada also do consulting after graduation?

[Organic Chemistry]

16 hours ago, diamondburr said:

This is really interesting. Can someone graduating from a DDS (doctor of dental surgery) program in Canada also do consulting after graduation?

They take in anyone with a degree. If you have a doctoral (i.e. PhD, MD, DDS or JD) degree, you should enter at the associate level (just above the entry analyst level). The most important part is passing the case interview (very similar to prepping for MMIs in a sense). I think for MBBs, only 1% of applicants get an offer, which says something about the interview and hiring process. Secondary to case interview performance is the prestige/ranking of your university, GPA and any interesting extracurriculars (i.e. student council president, starting a business, raised x amount of money for charity).

[redman123123]

16 hours ago, diamondburr said:

This is really interesting. Can someone graduating from a DDS (doctor of dental surgery) program in Canada also do consulting after graduation?

Because of the specialized nature of the degree, relative to a MD/PharmD/PhD, I’d gun for: 1) biotech/medtech startup in the dental space; 2) finance roles with specific coverage in the oral/dental space (though, this is a relatively small therapeutic landscape so you’ll really have to shine to firms when you chat with them….. an interesting point here is maybe show your intellectual ability in tying your dental education in something hot right now such as Alzheimer’s. A company Cortexyme is targeting toxic processes from the gum disease bacteria, P. Gingivalis, in the brain. If you could connect thoughts like this in a logical manner, you will be considered an asset to buyside investing roles in general. Equity research (sell-side) too. 
 

In consulting, you will deviate right out of dental and likely not use much of those technical aspects at all really. Why not go into a career path that still allows you to nerd out on dental and then some??