Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

Recommended Posts

When the majority of the community is not vaccinated, this gives the virus an advantage to stay within a host and also spread and infect multiple people. Giving the virus this luxury allows it to replicate much easier which means giving it an opportunity to mutate. With everyone vaccinated ASAP, the virus has less of a chance to replicate and less of a chance to mutate and generate a "variant". Rapid replication = rapid mutation development = stronger or weaker variant. Being unvaccinated gives the virus a ticket to make variants as it pleases. We can prevent this by working together getting vaxxed and tone down the total replication potential of the virus within our communities. 

Hope this helps with your choice!

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Zachary Turbide said:

I'm I the only one that believes it makes complete sense to wait a few years before getting a covid vaccine ?

Unfortunately not.

9 hours ago, Zachary Turbide said:

With all the variants I hate to feel as a guinea pig.

How do covid variants make you feel like a guinea pig? Or are you saying the different types of vaccine? You understand that there can be more than one medicine that treats something right?

9 hours ago, Zachary Turbide said:

I'm smart enough to understand the science and arguments from both sides so no bashing!

Clearly, you're not. "Science" overwhelmingly suggests getting the vaccine is the most rational choice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Zachary Turbide said:

I'm smart enough to understand the science and arguments from both sides

So, what are your specific concerns regarding the vaccines? For example, do you think mRNA can get integrated into DNA and stay there forever? Or are you worried that CD8 t cells will attack the cell that takes up the mRNA vaccines and presents the spike protein? My worry was that mRNA will not end up in a muscle cell but will get onto the bloodstream and get endocytosed by hepatocytes or cardiomyocytes, or some other important cells. Then, those important cells will present the antigen on MHC I, which will result in a CD8 t cell attack and death of those precious cells. So, maybe what I am writing here is ignorant, but these are my genuine concerns. And although I did a B.Sc. in cell biology, we never studied mRNA vaccines and their effects.

I also found it's hard to find good information regarding the mRNA vaccines. When I google some info about vaccines, the first several dozens of results are mainstream media with their stupid cartoons, which don't answer my questions. It's frustrating. I don’t mind digging for quality information, it’s just buried so deep, it’s almost suspicious :)
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, who_knows said:

So, what are your specific concerns regarding the vaccines? For example, do you think mRNA can get integrated into DNA and stay there forever? Or are you worried that CD8 t cells will attack the cell that takes up the mRNA vaccines and presents the spike protein? My worry was that mRNA will not end up in a muscle cell but will get onto the bloodstream and get endocytosed by hepatocytes or cardiomyocytes, or some other important cells. Then, those important cells will present the antigen on MHC I, which will result in a CD8 t cell attack and death of those precious cells. So, maybe what I am writing here is ignorant, but these are my genuine concerns. And although I did a B.Sc. in cell biology, we never studied mRNA vaccines and their effects.

I also found it's hard to find good information regarding the mRNA vaccines. When I google some info about vaccines, the first several dozens of results are mainstream media with their stupid cartoons, which don't answer my questions. It's frustrating. I don’t mind digging for quality information, it’s just buried so deep, it’s almost suspicious :)
 

To be honest, most bachelors degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Undergraduate biology courses provide such a rudimentary understanding (like the one you tried to explain above and those of cartoon drawings meant to explain things to the public) of the field that you really don't know enough to do draw your own conclusions or suggest those with PhDs, MDs, multiple fellowships, and other advanced degrees who know much more than you do are wrong. So yes, what you are writing here is incredibly ignorant. I don't pretend to understand every bit of science that goes into the vaccine myself, but much the way i expect my patients to trust me when i'm looking after them to the best of my abilities in the hospital, I trust those who's responsibility it is to develop, produce, study and approve these medications. The research is there, and perhaps the reason you can't find information isn't because its too simplified for you, but too complicated for you when its presented in the primary articles.

Nearly 2.5 billion people worldwide have been fully vaccinated, with nearly 6 billion doses of the vaccine given in total. Is that sample size not enough for you to not feel like a guinea pig? Or is the risk of some mild side effects and very low risk of rare serious side effects still not warrant protecting your community, saving someones life, helping manage our ICUs so people who need them (traumas, post-cardiac surgery, post-neuro surgery, brain bleed, ruptured aortic aneurysms, suicide attempts) have a space to go when they come to emerg. To me the choice not to vaccinate is either based in a) incredible selfishness or b) misinformation and ignorance.

New variants, as others have pointed out, are a result of new infections and failure to vaccinate. Hopefully the next round of vaccines will have higher and faster uptake to prevent the development of new strains. The positive effectiveness of this vaccine has been seen globally by the vast reduction in infections, admissions, and deaths. Majority of those infected now are unvaccinated. So stop with the wrong facts (the choice to get vaccinated is no longer "opinion"), and get a needle in your damn arm so I can stop reading about complications of ECMO on my morning rounds.... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi robclem21, could you comment substantially about my reasoning regarding the CD8 t cells and why you find it incredibly ignorant? I read several articles stating that after translation, the spike protein is degraded and presented on MHC I.

robclem21, talks about blind trust in professionals and I get it, we trust professionals blindly all the time. But if I have a specific question and I can't find an answer and instead of answering the question, I get something like: stops asking questions and trust me. Nope, this only reinforces my worries.

Link to post
Share on other sites

agree dont feed trolls.

I literally see covid patients all the time, all of them unvaccinated. The *few* patients I have seen with a significant vaccine side-effect (Myocardititis) were not actually that sick and just needed to be monitored for a day before discharging them. The ones with covid stay in hospital forever or end up dying. I think the choice is relatively easy.

I also think anyone who doesn't believe in vaccines (including the mRNA ones) should not be allowed into medicine or to practice. Unfortunately there are a *few* already practising physicians that fall into this category.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/18/2021 at 12:18 PM, who_knows said:

Hi robclem21, could you comment substantially about my reasoning regarding the CD8 t cells and why you find it incredibly ignorant? I read several articles stating that after translation, the spike protein is degraded and presented on MHC I.

robclem21, talks about blind trust in professionals and I get it, we trust professionals blindly all the time. But if I have a specific question and I can't find an answer and instead of answering the question, I get something like: stops asking questions and trust me. Nope, this only reinforces my worries.

As others have said, I'm not going to get into a long argument with you here, but in short, you are taking a very over-simplified approach to a very complex problem and a very complex field in immuno-histochemistry (such as ignoring the biomolecular details of how these antigens are processed and presented to the immune system, the many different subtypes of MHC and their location and role in developing immune response, and the complex mechanisms of T-cell response *hint, it isn't a single schematic like your first year biology textbook would have you believe* ). 

Often this approach leads to incomplete understanding of how these processes play into the real-world development of therapy and disease management on a practical level. This is akin to why it often takes most specialists 10-15 years of training after undergrad to truly understand how to treat complex conditions.

I would never tell anyone to "blindly" trust professionals, but there comes a time where its important to recognize the limits of your own knowledge and expertise. There is a lot of misinformation out there which someone with poor understanding of science (or in your case undergrad level science) cannot differentiate. There is a reason we spend so much time learning and training and the truth is it doesn't compare to your few hours of reading articles on google. So of course do your research, but don't pretend we have the same level of understanding of a topic based on that and certainly don't be arrogant to suggest your google search is equivalent to most peoples decade+ of training and now 2+ years of experience with covid patients in the ICU (nearly all of which now are entirely unvaccinated).

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/17/2021 at 10:30 AM, Zachary Turbide said:

I'm I the only one that believes it makes complete sense to wait a few years before getting a covid vaccine ?

With all the variants I hate to feel as a guinea pig. I'm smart enough to understand the science and arguments from both sides so no bashing! What do you guys think?

It's normal to be hesitant about getting a vaccine that just came out and wanting to wait a few years before finding out the long term effects of said vaccine. But you're comparing getting the vaccine vs. not getting it provided you don't catch covid. A better comparison is which would you rather roll the dice with, long term effects of a vaccine or long term effects of covid 19?

Do you know the long term effects of covid- 19 on your lungs? Do you know the long term effects of getting intubated on your trachea? Do you know the long term effects of ECMO cannulas being stuck in your neck for weeks on end? Do you know the long term effects of steroids on your system? Do you know the long term effects of tocilizumab or any other drugs people are using to fight covid? People are okay with all these drugs when they're sick but they're unwilling to get a simple stupid vaccine that could've prevented all this crap. 

People who get admitted to the ICU unvaccinated should have to apologize to the individuals who get booted from the ICU, who get booted from their surgeries, who get booted from their cancer therapies because of their stupidity. 

If it were me, and I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the ICU should deny admission to all unvaccinated covid - 19 patients. Forgive me for wanting patients to take some responsibility for their actions. And before people give me crap about how its a slippery slope with smokers and obese patients, yes it is possible to reach a medium between treating pts with comorbid conditions that tax our health care systems while denying anti-vaxxors admission to the ICU. If everything was a slippery slope, everyone would be an extremist by definition. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/21/2021 at 11:28 AM, Zachary Turbide said:

Let's agree long term effects are unknown. 

Let's agree there is no rationale whatsoever that would lead us to believe there would be any long term side effects. Let's agree side-effects of vaccine usually occur shortly after administration. Let's all agree that covid-19 itself definitely has long-term side-effects. Let's agree you might be responsible of the death of people more vulnerable than you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/18/2021 at 12:34 PM, MedicineLCS said:

8 hiệu ứng tâm lý chứng minh não bộ không phải là thứ tuyệt vời như ta nghĩ

Ha, ok I just laughed. 

Man I just cannot escape this debate even when surrounded by people dying from this bloody virus. I have the great joy of reading all the ICU films every day from my hospital prior to their morning rounds. People think radiologists don't have the same sort of patient relationships - which can be true - but on the other hand I have personally seen radiographically each person who died from this slowly degrade over and over again one plain film at a time going through the same process each time for unending months, and I know they reach terminal point when I just stop seeing my morning chest x ray from them.  Another one bites the dust.....

I used to say quite a bit I avoid XYZ like the plague. I have stopped doing that because apparently people will just wade unprotected through plagues and complain the entire time about those same protective measures. 

You don't want your chest x ray to show up on my computer monitor. Get the darn vaccine. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/21/2021 at 3:40 PM, ACHQ said:

I don't think you are alone on this one among real M.D.'s

Alternatively, the government should not pay the cost of healthcare for people who are unvaccinated without a medical exemption and get COVID-19. I understand your freedom to choose, but the buck stops when your freedom to choose affects the rest of society. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Edict said:

Alternatively, the government should not pay the cost of healthcare for people who are unvaccinated without a medical exemption and get COVID-19. I understand your freedom to choose, but the buck stops when your freedom to choose affects the rest of society. 

Ha have to be careful with that argument - they are going to say ok fine, don't pay for it. While you are at it then don't charge me taxes for health care services you will no longer be providing. I assure you there will be a long line up of people that will sign up for that one. 

There is a point in a society where the balance tips to protecting the community at large and individuals hit boundaries in their personal freedoms. Where that is exactly is up to particular societies, but usually basic precautions against so say large plagues would fit into that. Freedom of choice is not absolute - no right is absolute actually. This can all be done in a sane way with respect for everyone - although what we have now is often a mess. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, rmorelan said:

Ha have to be careful with that argument - they are going to say ok fine, don't pay for it. While you are at it then don't charge me taxes for health care services you will no longer be providing. I assure you there will be a long line up of people that will sign up for that one. 

There is a point in a society where the balance tips to protecting the community at large and individuals hit boundaries in their personal freedoms. Where that is exactly is up to particular societies, but usually basic precautions against so say large plagues would fit into that. Freedom of choice is not absolute - no right is absolute actually. This can all be done in a sane way with respect for everyone - although what we have now is often a mess. 

 

Well can't you use the argument of private schooling in Canada. I.e., you don't have to go to public school but you do still have to pay your taxes to fund public schools if you choose to go private? I.e. by opting out of vaccination you are essentially saying you no longer want the publicly funded method of covid care. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Edict said:

Well can't you use the argument of private schooling in Canada. I.e., you don't have to go to public school but you do still have to pay your taxes to fund public schools if you choose to go private? I.e. by opting out of vaccination you are essentially saying you no longer want the publicly funded method of covid care. 

You can and people do ha. Repeatedly actually, they just keep arguing about it. 

The difference I guess is there would a LOT more people complaining about the health cost reduction. I mean private schooling is relatively rare after all. There could be enough of them to actually have some form of political power - and that would just introduce more stupidity. 

Plus I suppose you always get the slippery slope arguments about this sort of stuff. Should we pay for health care of smoking related illness? What about people that get injured doing ha stupid things. What about any so called modifiable health risk that you go into - endless arguing there. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/16/2021 at 7:05 PM, rmorelan said:

Ha have to be careful with that argument - they are going to say ok fine, don't pay for it. While you are at it then don't charge me taxes for health care services you will no longer be providing. I assure you there will be a long line up of people that will sign up for that one. 

There is a point in a society where the balance tips to protecting the community at large and individuals hit boundaries in their personal freedoms. Where that is exactly is up to particular societies, but usually basic precautions against so say large plagues would fit into that. Freedom of choice is not absolute - no right is absolute actually. This can all be done in a sane way with respect for everyone - although what we have now is often a mess. 

 

But as you mentioned, personal freedoms have boundaries and in the case of an infectious disease like COVID-19, your decisions affect others as well. Therefore, they may feel they shouldn't have to pay for their own healthcare but they sure as hell still need to contribute to the costs induced by treating their "victims". This is different than eating junk food where the only person affected is you.

Of course, this is all purely theoretic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...