Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

.


garceyues

Recommended Posts

Staying in your grad program and keeping that job offer is a 100% no brainer. What if you drop out, lose that job offer AND don't get an interview/don't get accepted again? Getting into medical school is a big lottery and a lot of it is dependent on chance/luck more than some who luckily got in first try like to beleive. Your marks may suffer but it does not mean you can't still reapply to medical school if your GPA drops. Having a grad degree, and real job experience can counteract the determintal impacts of a dropped GPA at UofA/UofC as they are heavy on the non-academics so even if your GPA drops due to this one year of grades the net impact is not as rough as you make it. Many pre-meds would kill for a chance that you have with this degree/job offer so consider yourself lucky and stay on this path. Just try your best to not let the grades drop too drastically (ie avoid D's, F's). And don't worry about age...I take it you're 24. The average age of admission at UofC/UofA is 25 so even if you get in 2 years from now you won't be signficantly higher than "normal."

tl;dr - I think dropping out of this program/job offer is crazy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, garceyues said:

Hey all, I am in a precarious situation and I'm in desperate need of advice.

Long story short, I am currently entering my third application cycle having only received one interview invite during my second cycle to U of C. Having been waitlisted last cycle without receiving an offer in the end, I started a 1 year course based masters degree. My impetus for pursuing this graduate degree was twofold: I needed to establish a career for myself, and the subject matter of my graduate degree really interested me. I spent a gap year (last year) working and making not much above minimum wage, so that coupled with the relative unemployability of my science degree demanded more schooling. Basically, I have been trying to set up a meaningful alternate career for myself knowing that med is never guaranteed.

I have been lucky enough to recently secure a job offer at a large consulting firm which is contingent upon the successful completion of this graduate degree. My plan was to continue applying to medicine as I pursued my backup career, but I have been met with a significant barrier: this program is absolutely brutal to the point of being unfair, and it looks like it is going to severely impact my GPA for the worst. For reference on how bad things are, a previous cohort had a third of the entire cohort fail one of the courses. Even worse, there were other courses that people failed, although the proportion that failed the other courses wasn't as large as an entire third. In essence, this program is absolutely brutal and people are failing multiple courses throughout this program, even though high grades and significant employment/extracurricular experiences are necessary to get into the program. Even without failing, I can't go through this program getting Bs. We are graduate students; we have gone through the trials and tribulations of undergrad, and I think it's fair to say we all have a realistic idea of what it takes to succeed academically. I can attest that my peers are very smart and accomplished individuals, but all the same, we all feel as though this program is academically overwhelming. 

Graduate grades matter for both of my IP schools (U of A and U of C) which are the only schools I have a shot at, so the stakes are ultra-high. I'm enjoying the topics we study (although the profs suck) and I think I would enjoy my new corporate job that I have been accepted for. However, I have had some time to reflect on my values and interests, and it is so utterly clear to me that medicine is where I want to be more than anywhere else. Personally, working with numbers and data in an office setting would not provide the same satisfaction or fulfillment that being a doctor would. 

With all of this in mind, I am considering dropping out of my graduate program for the sole reason of protecting my GPA and my shot at my dream career. Medicine isn't a guarantee, and doing this would mean I have to give up my corporate job which would provide a good salary and upwards mobility. However, I also cannot simply continue to apply to medicine year after year with no additional schooling. I need a decent job to support myself and actually start a life... Working a job that pays a few dollars over minimum wage isn't really sustainable. I managed to obtain my one interview invite last with a 3.87 GPA, and I planned to continue to apply to medicine until I was accepted. If my GPA is in fact going to get decimated, it looks like my dream and any hopes or reapplying will come to an abrupt end. 

I feel trapped, as though everything I worked for over all of these years is about to be wiped away. I was a poor student during highschool, and it took a lot of willpower, motivation, and raw time to sort myself and become more academically inclined. I always reflect back on that moment in 11th grade when I decided to start on that journey to fixing those things in my life that made it possible to succeed in university. That foundation ultimately allowed me to academically succeed in university while balancing different extracurriculars, jobs, and other activities. When I think back, it's just such a surreal feeling how much I have changed from 8 years ago and that I was able to have all of these experiences and opportunities. It literally just doesn't feel real. I feel so lost, as though everything I have worked for to make this dream a reality is about to be wiped away...

Any advice is appreciated.

GPA is not everything -- I got into both medical schools ( u of c and a) with a very  low GPA. I don't think your GPA is what is impeding you, you need to focus on other areas (aka your interviews if you are getting ones)... If it makes you feel better, my wGPA was 3.75 and cGPA was 3.4, and I had no graduate degrees.

Stay in grad school if you enjoy it - try your best to get good grades... but it is not end of world if you don't get good grades. You need to learn how to deal with failure or not meeting your own expectations/standards... because when you get into medicine that will happen so many times. Trust me, it does not end.  It's a skill that you will need in this career. It's only a matter of time before you get into medicine and I think you are focusing so much on grades- forget about  ur grades... it is only a small portion of application... sometimes even failures and how you deal with failure and difficulties  may help you moving forward - in terms of building resiliency.  You may also gain life experiences in your corporate career which may be useful moving forward.

Plus,  realize that U.S medical schools are viable options. Currently, at U of C IM program there are US and Ireland medical school grads, in their surgery program, there are US grads, in FM program there are US grads. It's not the end of the world if U of C is not accepting you...there are a hundred other school in the USA... I'd encourage you to apply to US schools if you are dead set on medicine. The only con is that it may be expensive.  

You need to be flexible and not approach life w/ scarcity mindset because nothing is getting wiped away- so what if you are getting bad grades? So what if you did not make it into medical school so far? - there is a million other option if U of C or U of A or even every Canadian medical school not accept you. There is US/ ireland, various other professional schools...etc. You need to adopt this mindset in your interviews as well.  They can tell when people are being hyper-focused on medicine. You need to be chill, and don't be desparate, you need to understand your value and what you will add to the profession( although I Understand how difficult it is to not get multiple times - it is hard- but try to change your mindset)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, garceyues said:

There's one caveat I should have outlined in my original post: if I withdraw and protect my GPA, I should be able to apply to other graduate programs or after degrees no problem using my undergrad grades. It would be another year and some money down the drain for sure, but OT, PT, SLP, or a nursing after degree would provide stable careers and would likely not obliterate my GPA. I'm confident I could gain admission to some of these programs.

 

That changes things... from your post you made it seem like you liked being in this degree/future job offer so that's why I was so quick to say why drop those opportunities to protect your GPA. Also, I was not aware the GPA drop would be that much. If you are happy pursuing those other programs then sure drop out now, see if you get an interview/acceptance this year to med and if not, start those other programs if you are happy with any of them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey OP, idk why I felt the need to chip in to this thread but I do.

Currently in a similar-ish boat as you, early 20s in age and making advancements in an alternate career path (in my case, counselling) while still applying to med. And feeling like if I take bigger and bigger steps in this path (ex. enrolling in a Masters of Counselling program to be eligible for higher paying counselling jobs), that I would be shutting the door on med.

I've only applied to med once before this current cycle and did not get any interviews. It's been close to 12 months since I received the dreaded pre-interview R, and a lot of growth happened for me personally in that time. I saw life in a different light and "grew out of" being a desperate premed. Now, I just want a job in a helping profession that gets me enough income to support a family on my own (just a run of the mill middle class lifestyle is fine by me, it's all I've known and I don't see anything wrong with it). Would probs pursue FM or something if I do go to med school (but who knows without actually doing clerkship yet, I guess).

In that time, I've realized concepts like religion, family (spouse & kids), work-life balance, etc. are way more important to me than having the title Dr. in front of my name. If pursuing medicine takes me even an inch away from my religion, from being a present and loving partner, from spending genuine time with my kids each night, etc., then I will give up my pursuit.

I'm pretty confident I'll get in to medicine, but by my stats (3.65 cGPA, 512 MCAT) one might think that I have no right to be. I think losing the desperation gave me a lot of confidence in return and I would love for you to experience the same thing.

That being said, I myself have not fully decided yet if I should willingly walk away from med or not, and I think that seems to be the question you're grappling with too. I guess if I could give any advice, it would be not to walk away out of fear of failure. Walk away only if you're really actually genuinely happy with the alternate path, and if you'll have no regrets about turning your back on med.

We're not all going to get into med and thats a fact (even accounting for reapplicants). Queens, for example, just had 5700+ applications for 109 seats. That's how it is going to be in Canada. There's no shame in "giving up" to build a happy life for yourself with the things that truly matter to your life. If med is the #1 thing that matters, more power to you. For me, it's not #1 (albeit it is high on the list and hence why my name is still in the premed game atm)

Sorry for the long response, just wanted to give a kind and caring word that your ears might've needed to hear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, garceyues said:

Congrats on the admission, you should be proud! I know that I will have to work on my interview if I am lucky enough to get one again, but I feel like my entire profile as an applicant needs work lol.

Honestly, I am interested in the subject material of my degree, but I would be lying if I didn't say that I'm having a really bad time. I feel overwhelmed, the profs and program staff are very "old school" for lack of a better word and don't seem to care about us whatsoever. It's been a pretty bad experience so far. Even if I wasn't applying to med, the thought of failing a course is on my mind - I have literally never felt like that ever before. I think its not so much failure in the broad sense of the word that scares me. I have failed in so many regards in life, but I try to take those in stride as much as I can. Its the fact that this academic environment that I'm in doesn't really give me any leeway to fail, to grow, or to learn, especially if medicine is the objective. I feel like the amount of work I'm putting in doesn't matter which is something I have never felt before. I know that failure is a part of medical school, a part of life, a part of growing as a human. I just feel that in this context, it irrevocably closes the door on Canadian medical schools for me. I wish that I felt more comfortable with failing to grow in an academic sense, but the MD admissions process incentives the opposite of that. It is one thing to fail in a pass/fail MD environment built on intrinsic learning and collaboration (I long for this sort of learning environment). It's another to fail in the hyper competitive environment of MD admissions which harshly penalizes any sort of academic performance short of excellent. 

US medical schools have been something I have been considering more lately. I am not sure what my shot is like with a 3.75 cGPA and two MCAT takes (I know US med schools look unfavoruably on rewrites), the higher of which was 512. Ideally I wouldn't want to go to a DO school since I couldn't practice in Canada and US matching becomes more difficult, but any sort of American MD school I am quite open to, even with the substantial tuition. Ireland or any other international programs seem like too much of a risk. I have heard that matching back to Canada is difficult, and you often times cannot match to a residency within the nation you do your degree in (such as with Ireland). 

I think my wGPA is at risk of dropping to a 3.5-3.6 here from my current 3.87 to give an idea of how brutal this program is. I hope that Canadian med works out, but whether its going abroad and enduring extraordinarily high tution rates, having lower match rates or limited specialties, it seems like a big gamble. You are right though, I definitely need to work on relaxing with this process in general and not appearing overly focused on one objective. 

1. GPA is not a big deal. Trust me! The majority of my friends don't have perfect grades by all means and they are all residents now. You are relying too much on it - you need to diversify your application.They do not not penalize low GPA because i just told you myself and all my friends have low GPA and we are all currently residents.  They may penalize low GPA and lacking in other areas as well though.They look at things holistically. It is also not even "penalize" - they don't penalize it lol.  There are just too many good applicants to pick from.

2. Every single person who left to study in Ireland or USA is currently doing residency in anesthiology, pediatrics, FM, IM, radiology, general surgery in Cda or the USA.  Unless you plan to do derm or plastics, then being an IMG will not be a problem, especially if you are okay with pursuing residency in US. I even have a friend who was few years ahead of me who did his med school in Carribean and did 3 years of research fellowship and just got into plastics residency.  So really anything can be possible with perseverance. You need to stop having a limiting mindset. You can achieve whatever you want, your path may be unconventional or longer but eventually you will reach your destination, and you will learn along the way.  W/ everything in life there is a gamble and risk.  Finishing your medical school in Cda, does not guarantee you any competitive specialties by any means.  It's not your medical school that will define if you will be a good doctor or not. It is mainly YOU.

3. If you dislike the program for other reasons which seems like that may be the root of the issue / or if you feel overwhelmed, it is affecting you mentally or making you ++ anxious, then drop these courses! It's not worth your mental well-being.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, lovemedicinesomuch said:

1. GPA is not a big deal. Trust me! The majority of my friends don't have perfect grades by all means and they are all residents now. You are relying too much on it - you need to diversify your application.They do not not penalize low GPA because i just told you myself and all my friends have low GPA and we are all currently residents.  They may penalize low GPA and lacking in other areas as well though.They look at things holistically. It is also not even "penalize" - they don't penalize it lol.  There are just too many good applicants to pick from.

2. Every single person who left to study in Ireland or USA is currently doing residency in anesthiology, pediatrics, FM, IM, radiology, general surgery in Cda or the USA.  Unless you plan to do derm or plastics, then being an IMG will not be a problem, especially if you are okay with pursuing residency in US. I even have a friend who was few years ahead of me who did his med school in Carribean and did 3 years of research fellowship and just got into plastics residency.  So really anything can be possible with perseverance. You need to stop having a limiting mindset. You can achieve whatever you want, your path may be unconventional or longer but eventually you will reach your destination, and you will learn along the way.  W/ everything in life there is a gamble and risk.  Finishing your medical school in Cda, does not guarantee you any competitive specialties by any means.  It's not your medical school that will define if you will be a good doctor or not. It is mainly YOU.

3. If you dislike the program for other reasons which seems like that may be the root of the issue / or if you feel overwhelmed, it is affecting you mentally or making you ++ anxious, then drop these courses! It's not worth your mental well-being.

You got into medical school over 5 years ago..things have changed since due to more apps, rampant (online) grade inflation which explains OP's worry about GPA. You can even check the median admitted GPA's over the last 5 years change.

Anecdotal sucess stories of your small sample size aren't a good endorsement for going abroad especially now that Step is P/F and thousands of data points exist for CaRMS show otherwise. Yes, going to the US is way safer but not everyone has $400,000 - $500,000 lying around or the cosigners needed / comfort taking this loan. 

3. is a good point that I agree with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, offmychestplease said:

You got into medical school over 5 years ago..things have changed since due to more apps, rampant (online) grade inflation which explains OP's worry about GPA. You can even check the median admitted GPA's over the last 5 years change.

Anecdotal sucess stories of your small sample size aren't a good endorsement for going abroad especially now that Step is P/F and thousands of data points exist for CaRMS show otherwise. Yes, going to the US is way safer but not everyone has $400,000 - $500,000 lying around or the cosigners needed / comfort taking this loan. 

I got into med school 3 years ago. I also review applications and interview applicants. I am suggesting to go to the States and Ireland because I have seen ppl succeed over and over again -but  perhaps every single friend I know was dedicated and managed to get a residency ( so my sample could be very biased and its small,n=7, they also mostly got residency right after graduation). Finances is a big hurdle, I understand.  But if you keep waiting in Cda, you are also losing years of potenail income. However it is a personal decision. I am a person who is more risk tolerant, but i understand not every one may be that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, lovemedicinesomuch said:

I got into med school 3 years ago. I also review applications and interview applicants. I am suggesting to go to the States and Ireland because I have seen ppl succeed over and over again -but  perhaps every single friend I know was dedicated and managed to get a residency ( so my sample could be very biased). Finances is a big hurdle, I understand.  But if you keep waiting in Cda, you are also losing money. However it is a personal decission.

IMG match rate in Canada is around 25% I believe (compared to 97% for CMGs), so while everyone you know is in that 25%, the vast majority of IMG's dont match (and several that matched took more than one attempt to do so). Also, as OP mentioned it is even harder to get a residency position in Ireland as Canadian due to how Ireland gives first choice to EU citzens. Also, it's not just if you want derm or plastics. You can add Optho, neurosurgery as some others (with 0 spots across Canada for IMG's) and many of the specalities you mentioned have literally 1-5 spots for IMGs across Canada.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, offmychestplease said:

IMG match rate in Canada is around 25% I believe, so while everyone you know is in that 25%, the vast majority of IMG's dont match (and several that matched took more than one attempt to do so). Also, as OP mentioned it is even harder to get a residency position in Ireland as Canadian due to how Ireland gives first choice to EU citzens. 

 I know it is low, but matching to the States is a very viable and easier option. Most of the people  I know actually matched to the States ( and not Cda)  and they believe their decision to leave Cda to pursue medicine elsewhere allowed them to grow a lot as person. Most of them have lots of debt, but they can pay that debt easily in first few years of practice. I am just here to provide another view other  than the fear mongering associated with studying in USA or Ireland.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, garceyues said:

Hey all, I am in a precarious situation and I'm in desperate need of advice.

Long story short, I am currently entering my third application cycle having only received one interview invite during my second cycle to U of C. Having been waitlisted last cycle without receiving an offer in the end, I started a 1 year course based masters degree. My impetus for pursuing this graduate degree was twofold: I needed to establish a career for myself, and the subject matter of my graduate degree really interested me. I spent a gap year (last year) working and making not much above minimum wage, so that coupled with the relative unemployability of my science degree demanded more schooling. Basically, I have been trying to set up a meaningful alternate career for myself knowing that med is never guaranteed.

I have been lucky enough to recently secure a job offer at a large consulting firm which is contingent upon the successful completion of this graduate degree. My plan was to continue applying to medicine as I pursued my backup career, but I have been met with a significant barrier: this program is absolutely brutal to the point of being unfair, and it looks like it is going to severely impact my GPA for the worst. For reference on how bad things are, a previous cohort had a third of the entire cohort fail one of the courses. Even worse, there were other courses that people failed, although the proportion that failed the other courses wasn't as large as an entire third. In essence, this program is absolutely brutal and people are failing multiple courses throughout this program, even though high grades and significant employment/extracurricular experiences are necessary to get into the program. Even without failing, I can't go through this program getting Bs. We are graduate students; we have gone through the trials and tribulations of undergrad, and I think it's fair to say we all have a realistic idea of what it takes to succeed academically. I can attest that my peers are very smart and accomplished individuals, but all the same, we all feel as though this program is academically overwhelming. 

Graduate grades matter for both of my IP schools (U of A and U of C) which are the only schools I have a shot at, so the stakes are ultra-high. I'm enjoying the topics we study (although the profs suck) and I think I would enjoy my new corporate job that I have been accepted for. However, I have had some time to reflect on my values and interests, and it is so utterly clear to me that medicine is where I want to be more than anywhere else. Personally, working with numbers and data in an office setting would not provide the same satisfaction or fulfillment that being a doctor would. 

With all of this in mind, I am considering dropping out of my graduate program for the sole reason of protecting my GPA and my shot at my dream career. Medicine isn't a guarantee, and doing this would mean I have to give up my corporate job which would provide a good salary and upwards mobility. However, I also cannot simply continue to apply to medicine year after year with no additional schooling. I need a decent job to support myself and actually start a life... Working a job that pays a few dollars over minimum wage isn't really sustainable. I managed to obtain my one interview invite last with a 3.87 GPA, and I planned to continue to apply to medicine until I was accepted. If my GPA is in fact going to get decimated, it looks like my dream and any hopes or reapplying will come to an abrupt end. 

I feel trapped, as though everything I worked for over all of these years is about to be wiped away. I was a poor student during highschool, and it took a lot of willpower, motivation, and raw time to sort myself and become more academically inclined. I always reflect back on that moment in 11th grade when I decided to start on that journey to fixing those things in my life that made it possible to succeed in university. That foundation ultimately allowed me to academically succeed in university while balancing different extracurriculars, jobs, and other activities. When I think back, it's just such a surreal feeling how much I have changed from 8 years ago and that I was able to have all of these experiences and opportunities. It literally just doesn't feel real. I feel so lost, as though everything I have worked for to make this dream a reality is about to be wiped away...

Any advice is appreciated.

First of all I feel for you as it must be difficult to feel like you're at a major crossroads right now with huge implications depending on which path you take. A few things come to mind, hopefully it can give you some food for thought:

You are quite young. At 22, in theory you could still for example finish grad school with terrible grades, work a year or 2 in corporate, then go back and do a 2nd undergrad to raise your grades, and then reapply to med with a newly obtained 4.0 gpa, and you'd still only be 27 :) 

School is finite; whether it be your grad program or med school. So not liking ur school program does not necessarily translate into not liking the job afterward. Have u exposed yourself to the realities of the potential worklife after grad school, ie outside of academia? It's possible you dislike your program, but if u get the feeling you'd really like the job afterward, then u could suck it up for a year of grad school and simply view it as a means to an end. 

I think ur right in being inclined to protecting your gpa. GPA is important in canada, and your 3.87 is perfectly acceptable. Others have pointed out that it's certainly possible to get in with a lower gpa, but seeing as it's generally the main metric for admissions I'd try to protect it and focus on other aspects of the admissions process to boost your chances. 

there's no one way right way forward. stay true to yourself, do things that you're genuinely drawn to, you're young and I think you've got time to make it to med school whether you stay in grad school right now or not.

I wish you good luck!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...