Cost of living to income ratio in different regions of Ontario!

[medicinist]

Hello!

I am a GIM R4 in a 5 year program in Quebec and I am looking to move to Ontario. I am bilingual but I do prefer working in an English setting (charting in English, etc). Options in Quebec are limited in terms of jobs and I want to explore Ontario. I am trying to determine where in Ontario and "the world is your oyster".

I am trying to find out the income to the cost of living in the GTA area vs Ottawa vs Kingston vs Hawkesbury (I get to have the proximity to Quebec since I have considerable family there). I don't know the average income in any of these cities for a general internist vs the cost of living? If I go to the GTA area how much of a financial strain does the living costs puts on your shoulder ? Do you end up making more money since you are in larger community hospital to offset the increase in expenses?

Also another factor to consider is the Quebec taxes which are insane in comparison to Ontario but then I hear about the house prices in Ontario and I am like the taxes are not so bad!!

 

[medmedmed132]

GTA >> Ottawa > Kingston > Hawkesbury is my guess

[rmorelan]

3 hours ago, medmedmed132 said:

GTA >> Ottawa > Kingston > Hawkesbury is my guess

Yeah I think that is pretty clear - Not sure you actually can earn more in Toronto vs those other areas as well. I mean it isn't like there is a different set of billing codes for Toronto vs everywhere else. 

Always thought Ottawa was a nice balance of things but that is personal preference really. 

[Bambi]

Cornwall

[medicinist]

9 hours ago, Bambi said:

Cornwall

What makes you say that? do you have some numbers in terms of income there vs costs?

 

 

[medicinist]

18 hours ago, rmorelan said:

Yeah I think that is pretty clear - Not sure you actually can earn more in Toronto vs those other areas as well. I mean it isn't like there is a different set of billing codes for Toronto vs everywhere else. 

Always thought Ottawa was a nice balance of things but that is personal preference really. 

I agree. Since the major cost if living is housing, it is understandable that the further away from the city the less expensive it gets, even cities differ. I imagine the cost of housing in GTA > Ottawa > kingston, etc. I did however consult with an accountant who said whatever the cost of housing , it is an investment and since houses don't lose value, then you should not include that into your calculation. 

On the other hand, income might greatly vary from a place like Hawkesbury vs GTA. I contacted someone who did an elective there and their ER consult service have around 3-5 consults a day vs another busy community center you start your day with at least 10! This is a huge income difference. 

[rmorelan]

14 hours ago, medicinist said:

I agree. Since the major cost if living is housing, it is understandable that the further away from the city the less expensive it gets, even cities differ. I imagine the cost of housing in GTA > Ottawa > kingston, etc. I did however consult with an accountant who said whatever the cost of housing , it is an investment and since houses don't lose value, then you should not include that into your calculation. 

On the other hand, income might greatly vary from a place like Hawkesbury vs GTA. I contacted someone who did an elective there and their ER consult service have around 3-5 consults a day vs another busy community center you start your day with at least 10! This is a huge income difference. 

Houses do lose value - ha, that is a classic mistake that even accountants make. They are losing value right now, so I don't know how you can even begin to say that. They lost value over the 2008-2009 recession (massively in some places), and so on. They lose value every time interest rates rise actually, as the price of housing is related to how much it costs to own them, which means mortgages, which are more expensive as the interest rates go up.  

In the long run they tend to rise in value - but even then you have to factor in whether the upkeep cost and taxes which people tend to pay and then forget they paid actually makes it profitable - it doesn't always. Saying in the long run they go up though doesn't mean much - a broad based stock portfolio will go up in value as well. So does the prices of cans of beans for that matter. 

Not including it in your calculation is a bit silly in my mind as a result - the difference between the housing costs can be invested, and historically stock market returns exceed real estate returns on personal property. In the last decade in many cases that hasn't been true but we also have existed in a record breaking long term low interest rate environment. That is far from the norm - and you can argue is the major reason we are now stuck with equally historic rises in interest rates - probably going up yet again quite a bit this coming Oct with the next rate announcement. People with student loans out there - ugh, this isn't going to be fun times. 

Anyway ha! - not to push the point too much, but the fact they can go down is exactly why as staff I didn't buy a house over the past 2 years as I became staff as prices were at all time highs. I got covid times rent discount on a nice condo, which is effectively rent controlled, and have been sitting on the sidelines. 

Hawkesbury  is a small town yes? Any mid sized or later community is probably going to have the same volume per staff in the ER or close to it. How does the Hawkesbury ER staff deal with that lower volume? Are they just happy to have a peaceful life, or are they doing something else at the same time? 

[zoxy]

On 9/22/2022 at 9:40 AM, rmorelan said:

In the long run they tend to rise in value - but even then you have to factor in whether the upkeep cost and taxes which people tend to pay and then forget they paid actually makes it profitable - it doesn't always.

Not to mention the amount of interest you will be forking over to the bank for the mortgage on that detached home in the GTA.

I've been told not to buy a house immediately upon finishing residency/fellowship and geting your first attending job, but to wait 2-3 years.  Buying one will tie you down to a location/job that you might not like and the transaction cost of selling and buying again can get expensive. Imagine paying realtor fees and land transfer tax only to move in three years, and taking a loss on top of it.

[medicinist]

10 hours ago, rmorelan said:

Houses do lose value - ha, that is a classic mistake that even accountants make. They are losing value right now, so I don't know how you can even begin to say that. They lost value over the 2008-2009 recession (massively in some places), and so on. They lose value every time interest rates rise actually, as the price of housing is related to how much it costs to own them, which means mortgages, which are more expensive as the interest rates go up.  

In the long run they tend to rise in value - but even then you have to factor in whether the upkeep cost and taxes which people tend to pay and then forget they paid actually makes it profitable - it doesn't always. Saying in the long run they go up though doesn't mean much - a broad based stock portfolio will go up in value as well. So does the prices of cans of beans for that matter. 

Not including it in your calculation is a bit silly in my mind as a result - the difference between the housing costs can be invested, and historically stock market returns exceed real estate returns on personal property. In the last decade in many cases that hasn't been true but we also have existed in a record breaking long term low interest rate environment. That is far from the norm - and you can argue is the major reason we are now stuck with equally historic rises in interest rates - probably going up yet again quite a bit this coming Oct with the next rate announcement. People with student loans out there - ugh, this isn't going to be fun times. 

Anyway ha! - not to push the point too much, but the fact they can go down is exactly why as staff I didn't buy a house over the past 2 years as I became staff as prices were at all time highs. I got covid times rent discount on a nice condo, which is effectively rent controlled, and have been sitting on the sidelines. 

Hawkesbury  is a small town yes? Any mid sized or later community is probably going to have the same volume per staff in the ER or close to it. How does the Hawkesbury ER staff deal with that lower volume? Are they just happy to have a peaceful life, or are they doing something else at the same time? 

I just put what the accountant said out there but definitely wasn't going to follow that advice blindly. I never thought buying a house was an investment especially with the current prices. If the prices are back where they should be, it is at least not a depreciating asset. The cost of upkeeping a house is the cost you  pay for the luxury of having your own backyard. We are here to crunch numbers though so I get your point.

You and @zoxy raise a good point of not committing to a house at the beginning since there is a high chance of moving between jobs the first few years unless you land your dream job then that is a different story. 

 

[Bambi]

On 9/21/2022 at 5:31 PM, medicinist said:

What makes you say that? do you have some numbers in terms of income there vs costs?

 

 

No, just another option with perhaps easier access to Quebec than Hawkesbury.

[rmorelan]

On 9/22/2022 at 10:47 PM, medicinist said:

I just put what the accountant said out there but definitely wasn't going to follow that advice blindly. I never thought buying a house was an investment especially with the current prices. If the prices are back where they should be, it is at least not a depreciating asset. The cost of upkeeping a house is the cost you  pay for the luxury of having your own backyard. We are here to crunch numbers though so I get your point.

You and @zoxy raise a good point of not committing to a house at the beginning since there is a high chance of moving between jobs the first few years unless you land your dream job then that is a different story. 

 

I was pointing out the accountant's somewhat strange comments, without of course attributing them to yourself

Crunching the numbers I think really is the name of the game - one rule that has some sold backing is if you can rent a place for less than 5% of the purchase price and you are organized it is better to rent in terms of pure numbers - that is just because the maintenance cost of a property is 1-2% its value a year usually, the interest costs you have to bare relative to the overall housing case, and the different in expected return on real estate and the most logical alternative which is the stock market. This is all long term averages of course. If you were lucky enough to get in an the rent dip during covid you can be well below those levels for sometime. 

The other issue is if you can even rent the equivalent to what you would want to buy - a lot fewer higher end properties to rent of course and people will have individual needs. 

Personally I am rented for sure as while as I don't know ultimately where I will be standing, and a purchase has to be long term. I am an ER radiologist so while I live downtown TO right now I actually don't have to in the end. I only have to be one site one week out of four, so there is an opportunity to live some place else and just stay in the city when needed - an obvious possibility i suppose it to buy an airbnb and rent it out 3/4 weeks, and use it for the other week. When you are working seven days in a row for 60-70 hours, where you are sleeping doesn't matter as much ha.