UBC selection process is so screwed up!

[Guest Thewonderer]

I have been waiting to say it for a while but UBC admissions is f**ked up. Heck, I will probably get some heat for it. But there you go....

 

Please look at

www.med.ubc.ca/md/admissi.../page2.htm

 

And you will see that

1) it is a heck LOT easier to get in as female (esp. in year 2000)

and

2) they turn away more people with A+ and A average than they accept. Their MCAT scores for acceptees and rejectees are very very similar as well (a mere difference of 0.26 per section). Basically, they do their admissions their "own" way and don't put much emphasis on stats (or any objectivity, as I like to put it). And guess who usually get A+ and A averges...Asians. I have known friends who didn't get into UBC for med (in-province) and have gotten into U of Alberta, Univ. of Western Ontario, Queen's and even Wash U, Vanderbilt, Univ. of Penn, Medical College of Wisconsin, U. of Hawaii, Albert Einstein, George Washington, and Yale in the States. In the end, they are probably the lucky ones to get their names not associated with UBC med

 

As for Kirsteen who mentioned in another thread that UBC's admission process is very transparent and good in that sense, I respectively disagree.

 

Let me cite 4 friends I have known in the past 3 years (three were UBC undergrads while one went to Queen's). One has A average while the other three have A+ averages. Two have 36 MCAT score, one has 38 and another has 40. And all four have interviewed at various schools on both sides of the border BEFORE their UBC interviews which, for people who apply to states, come belatedly late (When I applied three years ago, I got my first interview at Case Western around August 20ish). So you know that their academic percentiles according to the rejection paper from the UBC admissions office are all 95+. And guess what their interview scores are? 30ish, 30ish, 20ish and 5. So basically, what they are saying is that even with many interview practices they have with VARIOUS schools ahead of time, their interview performance in March at UBC (after being on the interview circuit for 5 months already) are worse off than 95% or 70% of the other applicants who interview at UBC and most of whom probably ONLY apply to UBC med (as oppose to my friends who apply everywhere).

 

For me, that's hard to believe, period. If it only happens to 1 or 2, yeah, maybe by chance. But to all 4?? In all honesty, it is not hard for the admissions committee to make up their minds on whom they want to accept and take a look at your academic percentile and THEN give you an "interview" percentile that is low enough to keep you out of the door. And come on, if they give 50% weight to academics and 50% to interview scores, why does the committee need to meet? One person will be good enough to add the academic and interview scores together and give out acceptances/waitlists/rejections. It all smells very fishy to me. And if they do is called transparency in its admissions process, then so be it.

I, on the other hand, tend to be on the conpiracy-theory side and am very cynical about UBC med.

 

And by the way, all four are Chinese. (Ian will probably give me a hard time on this but this is my opinion) ;P

 

So in the end, none of them waited another year to try to get into UBC med. They took their respective acceptances from the list of schools I mentioned above and are now at different schools on both sides of the border.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi Thewonderer,

 

You sound a little frustrated, and I understand as the selection process can leave some applicants feeling a little helpless and at the potential mercy of others. It's a massive weight when your future hangs in such a balance. To try and alleviate that just a bit, I'll try to clarify the point that I made previously regarding UBC's "transparency". Specifically, what I was referring to was the fairly extensive set of stats that I received from UBC as a rejected applicant last year. Relative to other schools, with respect to rejections at least, UBC provided me with quite a bit of information. I appreciated that greatly and found it useful as I was able to work from it to reconstruct my application this year. The same sort of information, and not nearly as extensive, I had to call and request from some other schools. Of course, with respect to other parts of the admissions process, I completely agree with you that there still are parts of UBC's, as well as other medical schools' that remain shrouded--and that probably will not change, nor should it, necessarily.

 

I've little idea about the remaining, unknown parts of these selection processes, but I assume that each medical school selects their candidates according to their own mandates. These mandates, although they may vary, hopefully dovetail with longer-term objectives for medical care in Canada--some appear to, such as giving preference to candidates who hail from, or reside within province, thereby hopefully assuring that a large enough proportion of graduates remain within the province to provide service. I like to have faith that, even though I was rejected in the past and may be rejected again, that admissions committees make sound and logical decisions in an attempt to select the best future doctors. Based on this faith, there is no reason why I may not give the application process another shot.

 

It can be a brutally tough battle for some hoping to gain a spot in their medical school of choice, and perhaps this process may seem odd, incongruent or misguided to some who face rejections. Hopefully though, this doesn't stop those who can be fabulous and talented doctors from pressing against the wheel, and in the case of your pals, it seems that such diligence and drive may have paid off. Hopefully they are enjoying their medical educations and thriving.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest anon]

Let me first state that I was rejected pre-interview by UBC this year.

 

First, UBC can set their own criteria for admissions. If they want to admit a class full of olympic athletes, then all the more power to them.

 

However, the rejection letter I got was one of the rudest and most demeaning rejection letters I have ever received. It seemed to imply that I was not fit to be a doctor and that UBC was my only chance in becoming a doctor.

 

I have had multiple acceptances to top 20 schools in the US, so I really do not need this from UBC. (And no, I do not have stellar stats. In fact, my stats are pretty average: 3.72/33Q)

 

If they wanted to reject me, fine. But do so gracefully. But the degree of what my friends and I call "fakeness" perpetrates throughout the student body. I recently saw on the local news a report that interviewed five M3s (last year if I remember correctly). All five of the students said they were leaving BC for greener pastures (i.e., the US). If their goal is to train physicians to stay in BC then they are failing miserably. I suspect this is a result of the lengths to which candidates have to go in order to gain a spot in this school. Is it the candidates fault? Hardly. But seeing the admissions counselor after my rejection she told me to be an olympic athlete, plant trees and do other stuff in which I am not interested. What, so I can please some admissions committee at UBC? Puuuuhlease!

[Guest Ian Wong]

Well, I'm glad that your friends all ended up in med school after their efforts. You're right, I don't see a bias against Asians here at UBC; there's plenty of us in the Med 3 class and in the school itself, and I assume I probably supplanted at least one of your friends at some point in the application process.

 

Med school admissions is inherently a variable thing, and when a med school sets specific criteria, such as weighting the interview at 50%, that by no means guarantees that the distribution of accepted students will rest at a fifty:fifty split for men and women, nor does it predict that people from different backgrounds will perform equally well in the interview.

 

From my admittedly jaded perspective, I think women, and in particular women with a background in interviewing, public speaker, public presentations would probably perform better than average in an interview where strong communication skills are emphasized. We could debate the pros and cons of selecting for med students using various weighting criteria and then sticking with the applicants who succeed most under those rules, or else maintaining rigid quotas in an attempt to maintain perfect proportions, and get nowhere after a lengthy discussion. My viewpoint is that good communication skills are crucial in any PBL curriculum, where your own personal learning depends so much on the interactions with your peers.

 

All that really matters is that from UBC's perspectives, they found students who they felt would be a better fit in the curriculum than your friends. "Why" is a question that is impossible and certainly hazardous to extrapolate on individual performances as compared to the global statistics that UBC uses.

 

As far as MCAT scores go, UBC has consistently used the MCAT as a flag, so that higher scores on the MCAT past the threshold don't contribute significantly to your admissions chances. The only important point is that the average MCAT scores of accepted UBC students remains roughly at 10's across the board, showing a level of MCAT competence comparable with other Canadian med schools.

 

From my perspective, UBC admissions does a hell of a good job. I think my classmates are amazingly strong and diverse in their experiences, with a bare minimum in people who I think might not make the strongest clinicians. Clearly, UBC grads aren't slouches. This year's class did exceptionally well in the match, landing a Plastic Surgery spot and an Emerg spot, with multiple spots in ENT, Ophthalmology, Radiology, Urology, Pediatrics, Orthopedics, and Radiation Oncology.

 

All on an annual tuition of under $4000 Cdn, in one of the most beautiful cities in the world with a huge center for medical education. I'm happy to be here at UBC Med, and proud of it as well. I'd say the same on behalf of most of my classmates.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Thewonderer]

Actually I was just on the phone with one of those friends. And she said that she met up with the office staff for post-rejection info gathering as well and yeah, that said 1) extracurricular is not strong, for ex. no olympics experience and 2) no career experience yet (duh, that's why my friend applied to med school in the first place). It is amazing both her and anon got the same words! must be the same staff member from the admissions office.......

 

As for the "transparency" issue, yes, that's what we both are talking about. Kirsteen thinks it is good while I am holding on conpiracy theory and saying that it is an attempt to be tranparent and show pseudo-objectivity because they give you two scores, one academic and one interview. But my theory is that the interview score is altered.

 

I have no problem with UBC med setting its own criteria. But I have problem that they put out a facet that their admissions is transparent while what's behind the door seems dubious. At least, in the states, they are pro-Affirmative Action and they say and they do it, but I just get the feeling that UBC med is doing something to look that they are not biased but in fact....

 

I have 5 friends/acquaintances from highschool at UBC med right. The one in 3rd year med says that some students do study but MANY others are raudy, loud, social but get drunk quite often. If that's whom UBC med wants, then that's whom they get.

[Guest BrainDrain]

Thewonderer,

I don't know what it's like at UBC but everything you described is exactly my opinion of most Canadian med schools. It's so discouraging how people can work hard in undergrad to get A+'s (GPA 4.0) and see others with just A-'s get in. I don't know about you but if I got an A- in ANY course I'd be embarrassed. Most of my friends who got 4.0's and insane MCAT scores experienced the same rejections from Canadian schools (mainly Ontario) which makes me wonder why I didn't try the US earlier. These Canadian schools must love breeding mediocrity and watch all the bright and qualified students leave for the States. That is why I feel vindicated every time I (or my friends) get another acceptance from a top 20 US school, proving indeed that if you stay in Canada, you get treated like garbage.

[Guest strider2004]

It actually isn't just UBC that eliminates people with high GPAs. Queens feels that if you reach a certain GPA, then you've shown that you can handle a medical education. It's great if you can get a 4.0GPA but school would rather you have a 3.8 and have done some pretty cool things with your life.

It's really unfortunate that people have to be rejected from med school. I interviewed 12 students this year and only found 1 that I wouldn't want in my class. However, you're talking about over 400 interviewees and only 100 spots(in Queens). A lot of people deserve to be in med school and they probably could get in if the winds were blowing a little harder or there was less rain that day or whatever. The application process is depressing(even from my perspective, the other side) and I want everyone to know that just because you weren't accepted, it doesn't mean that you don't deserve a seat. The committee just thought that somebody else deserved it a bit more than you did.

 

I also don't believe that Canadian med schools breed mediocrity. A good doctor isn't necessarily the one who can memorize facts and spit them out on a piece of paper. A good doctor is one who can talk to a patient and heal them, physically AND emotionally. You can't mark that on an exam. Even the interview is a sorry representation but it's the closest thing we have.

[Guest Ian Wong]

I wonder if that Olympic experience comment was just tongue in cheek. Certainly that can't be a criteria for entry as just one of my classmates is a former Olympian. If you choose to believe in the hidden AA theory, there's nothing I can really say to refute that except that we have lots of Asians in UBC Med. We've got students who come from a variety of educational, cultural, and social backgrounds. As a third year, yes there are a few people who hit the drinks more often than others, but we all work hard when the chips are serious. When we are off, we do things to relax, whatever hobbies and interests those may be.

 

I think the only conclusion that I can reach is that UBC doesn't select primarily for students with 4.0 GPA's and super MCAT scores. That's no big loss to me, as I think I'm in a superb class regardless, and I'm positive that high marks are not a great predictor of clinical success. If students wish to go to the US they're quite welcome to choose whichever path they feel will best accomplish their career goals. However, for the cost I'm paying in tuition, I think I'm getting the best value for my money, as well as receiving a quality education that gives me the opportunity to match into any number of competitive specialties.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Thewonderer]

Where have you gotten in? I can probably offer you some opinions since I have been involved in three years of admissions including me and my friends. Or you might as well post on the American board at http://www.studentdoctor.net

[Guest KatieKat]

Why would you be embarrased by an A-? :rolleyes

 

If UBC wants to admit well-rounded people, why do you care? Go to your top 20 American school, waste a lot of money, and get over it!

 

I'd understand the complaining if you all had applied to UBC numerous times, tried to *improve* your application and still got rejected. But all you're saying is "I get really high grades because I have few interests outside of school and UBC sucks because they won't let me in!" Well, I really don't see the arguement in that!

 

I am so sick of all the whining on this board. UBC is gracious enough to tell you exactly what you need to do to improve your application. If getting into UBC means that much to you, do what they say! That might sound a little crazy, but I'm not about to let some little admissions technicalities get in my way of entering a great med school in the province I love.

 

And you know what? I went to high school and university in Vancouver, have tons and tons of Asian friends and far fewer non-Asian friends. But almost everyone I know applying to medicine isn't Asian. Really. The Asian population might be high in Vancouver, but I have my doubts that the percentage of Asian applicants is similar.

[Guest anon]

Ian, I do not like to get into heated arguments, but while I think it's cool you are paying 4k in tuition, you should be aware that not everyone can get into UBC med or any other canadian med school for that matter. Some of us do not have the choice but to go to the US to achieve our dreams. Please stop reminding us of the awesome education you get for dirt cheap. Yes, we get the point... you are very good to have gotten into UBC. Not all of us are that lucky. And while you may dispute how many olympic athletes there actually are in your class, I can only report to you what the counselor told me. BTW, I think I have been treated nicer at any US medical school than at UBC. I think it is a general feeling that Americans are more open than Canadians. I have been to eight interviews and not any of the interviews have been stressful--quite the opposite of what I heard at UBC. And to katiekat, I am not whining (you may be referring to someone else but I am defending him/her as well) and I don't think anyone else is on this board. We are simply expressing our feelings about this school. Imagine having worked so hard for four years in undergrad, busting your ass to get that high GPA only to have disappointing results in the end. No, I am not the 4.0, as I said before, I have a 3.72, nowhere near the top of my class, but I have done extensive volunteer and work experience and have many outside interests. I hope we can continue to have a nice debate without denigrating into the name-calling and swearing.

[Guest BrainDrain]

Like a lot of people, you equate students with high marks to be not "well-rounded". Are you saying that someone who has 4.0's cannot have time to do much else? Gimme a break! At least with marks and MCAT, you have some sort of measuring stick whereas interviews/extracurriculars are so subjective. How can you compare two people's EC activities and say one is more "well-rounded".

[Guest brandonite]

I don't know if schools in Canada breed mediocrity or not. But they certainly don't encourage excellence. I tend to think that your friends should have easily gotten into UBC. I know someone who didn't even get an interview at UBC, and got an acceptance by Washington University, which is the 4th ranked med school in the US! That tells me something is awry.

 

I didn't apply to UBC, because I would never have a shot there as an OOP. But all of you are right in saying that it is an amazing school... I'm not disputing that. I think things could be improved immensely by focusing more on MCAT scores, and less on GPA and interviews. I'm not saying that it isn't important to have doctors who have excellent interpersonal skills. But really, how much can you tell about a person based on a 1 hour interview? Anybody can act like a nice person for an hour. And the GPA's that schools in Canada tend to rely upon can vary extremely dramatically depending on the school, program, courses taken, etc...

 

There's no real easy way to tell if someone is going to be a great clinician or not. And an interview should be an important part of that decision. But I don't know if it should be the most important part...

 

Something that I would really like to see done is the establishment of a couple new research universities dedicated exclusively to excellence. Maybe one in each region of the country. Or perhaps work with existing Universities... Schools with very competitive admissions policies, attracting the top students from across Canada and the rest of the world, and admissions policies that in no way favor people from one province over another. These schools could compete with the Harvards, Stanfords, and Dukes of the world, and graduate great clinicians and great scientists.

 

Right now, med schools in most provinces are being pulled towards graduating strictly clinicians who can manage the needs of their province's health care, and are ignoring research. At least, that's my opinion...

[Guest Jase133]

Okay... why has the focus of this discussion turned onto Asian people?

 

I happen to be asian and just feel a bit uncomfortable that we are singled out.

 

Back to you, Larry...

[Guest anon]

brandonite, as long as Canada remains the socialistic hell hole that it is, Canada will never establish any "excellent" research universities.

 

Research requries money. Lots of it. There's no way the govt can subsidize huge amounts of research. The Stanfords, Dukes, Harvards, Hopkins, are all private schools who charge a lot for tuition, but most of their revenue come from donations from alumni and NIH funding. As long as Canada encourages cheap tuition, high taxes, and free health care, and other socialistic endeavors, it will be hard pressed to fund a new research university.

[Guest Ian Wong]

anon,

 

I wasn't trying to glamourize UBC med. Rather, I'm stating my belief that I think it's a hell of a med school, and that I think the student body that is eventually accepted is a strong and cohesive one.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the end, they are probably the lucky ones to get their names not associated with UBC med<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> These Canadian schools must love breeding mediocrity and watch all the bright and qualified students leave for the States.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->While the above statements weren't yours, my post wasn't a direct response to yours either, but rather to address the above contentions. It sounds to me like you have a very strong application, but as Strider2004 has already mentioned, and which I believe as well, there's a lot of excellent applicants vying for a very limited number of spots. Certainly the person who is 129th on the acceptance list and doesn't get accepted is no worse of an applicant than the person with the 128th spot who DID get in. I believe this year's application numbers are even higher than last year, and most assuredly many well-qualified and deserving applicants are going to get turned away. I'd say that probably a good 40-50% of my class had to apply multiple times before getting accepted, and I know of many people who were never accepted and have gone on to bigger and brighter pursuits.

 

But the process in which that all happens by no means makes UBC a poor medical school.

 

As far as objectivity goes in med school, I think interviews and extra-curriculars play a huge role in the application process, as well they should. No one ever said the med school admissions process was truly objective (and it'd be physically impossible to make it that way unless everyone who applied came from the same background and socioeconomic and cultural status, took identical courses in school, worked the same jobs, travelled to matching countries, wrote the same MCAT form at one sitting nationwide, and then had the entire application form handled by computerized robots...). The med school application process works. My class is an example of that.

 

brandonite,

 

As far as MCAT scores go, those mean absolutely nothing in my experience in predicting who is going to be a strong clinician. High marks on the MCAT are a function of your previous science background, combined with your preparatory investment (both financial and time), and measure your aptitude over a single 8 hour period. Once you step into the clinical arena and discover that MCAT scores don't predict a darn thing in who can elicit a history of sexual infidelity in a teenager presenting with an acute urinary tract infection, or visualize the pleural effusion on a chest x-ray, or tell a concerned parent that her child has an intracranial bleed, then we'll talk further.

 

I agree with you that Canada could be much stronger in its research, but money talks, and we don't have a lot of that in Canada. For the amount of money we DO have, we put out a lot of quality research, but it's impossible to believe that 30 million Canucks can out-do the raw financial and population advantage of the US. You see it in the military, in the stock exchange, in the music industry, heck, in the NHL of all places. Health care research is no different.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest brandonite]

Ian.

 

I'll have to admit that I don't have your experience in the clinical arena. But, let's break this down. You need strong students, academically, to best handle the rigours of medical school. I don't think that GPA is a good measure of that. It varies far too dramatically depending on school, program, courses, etc... The MCAT is a much better measure.

 

Now, as to evaluating one's personality... I don't think the interview does a very good job of that at all. How much can a group of people really tell about you in 45 minutes? Especially in such a stress filled situation as a medical school interview. I know a couple people who are strong academically, great people, but tend to interview poorly. It just seems very arbitrary to me.

 

As to the issue of research... The US supports maybe 50 top research schools, and has 30-40 med programs that are very research oriented. In Canada, there's basically just Toronto. I'm not saying that UBC/Alberta/McGill, etc..., aren't great research schools. But Toronto is the only school in Canada that states explicitly that it's goal is to graduate physician researchers. And I think that if the federal government makes it a priority, that could change.

 

Perhaps this is just my background here talking. If there was a school like Duke or Harvard or Stanford in Canada, I would jump at the chance to go to it, even if I had to pay $50,000 a year in tuition. But there isn't...

[Guest Thewonderer]

I am glad that my post got some discussion going! Maybe this will be the most talked about thread on the whole forum!

 

ok, but seriously, no one needs to be offended. Accordingly to the responses (whether from UBC student, or top 20 US med school student), everyone has a med school to go to. So....

 

1) I do agree with the sentiment that 1-hour interview x 2-3 people are not that useful in judging one's character. And honestly, everyone has the same or similar extra-curricular activities (i.e. involved in some clubs and maybe one or two leadership activities or play an instrument for 15+ years or something) and as far as I know, no one HERE has gone to Africa and saved 10 children from landmines. So Ian, if you don't mind, maybe you can please share something from your and your friend's EC's that set you apart from other applicants in your year? I am just curious....

 

2) My friends also got into Queen's, UWO and U of Alberta as OOP's. That's what I don't get. For me, it is not a prevalent Canadian problem; I rather call it UBC-specific admissions problem where their own residents get "forced" to go to other Canadian/US schools for medical education (heck, there is only one med school in BC, non?). And guess if these people will be likely to return to BC to practice. And plus the several UBC med grads who want to go to US for greener pasture (God forbid), is it a wonder that BC has physician shortage?

 

3) My friend at U of Alberta is now saving big $$$ as UBC going to hike up tuition to 14k per year within three years (per Ian).

 

4) I have got more stories.... Okay, the five friends I know at UBC med. They are all Asians actually. One was very involved in politics and active EC's. Fine. Then one more I do not know her well but she did get in after 3 years at UBC grad (but did complete her BSc.). The other three I know were from French Immersion in highschool (guess which highschool I went to!). Uhm... more conspiracy theory. They want Asians who can speak French, eh? Ok, maybe this theory is going out of hand. But I am just stating what I know. The numbers on UBC's website are just too fishy for me.

 

Oh, I forgot one more friend who was turned down at UBC. He went to an Ivy undergrad with 3.7 GPA and 34 MCAT. no love from UBC med either. That's 5 friends now.

 

Alright, I am on psych rotation and doing my tax form. Gotta run.....

[Guest KatieKat]

My school had french immersion too! Damn...wonder if I know you?

[Guest Liana]

Wow, I'm reading a lot of the posts in this discussion, and I'm honestly wondering if the poster wasn't writing with a sarcastic tone.

 

In case some of you haven't figured it out, it takes more than marks to be a good physician. If you've got a 4.0 GPA, that's great; it shows you know how to apply yourself and understand great volumes of material. This is certainly important to be successful as a doctor, but you'll need more than intelligence. While you don't need a 4.0 to get into medical school, applicants still have to have some fairly high marks to be successful, and ultimately everyone has to pass the same board exams. You can't honestly tell me you would rather a doctor (especially a pediatrician or psychiatrist) who had a 4.0 undergrad GPA but no social skills, rather than one with a 3.8 and a well developed appreciation for life outside of textbooks.

 

Yes, there are people out there with 4.0 GPAs and a mass of extracurricular activities to boot. I would like to see how many of these students don't get multiple acceptances to Canadian schools, including UBC. But there are just as many applicants with high marks and little to no activities aside from research activities. The entire purpose of the interview is to learn more about the applicant than just his or her stats. If the representatives from the admissions department have told you that you should invest more time in volunteering and social activities, perhaps this is an indication that this area of your applicant is lacking when compared to other applicants.

 

Regarding the Asian comment, I don't think that anyone is making this conversation a direct attack against Asian people. I believe you, Thewonderer, were the first to claim that this protocol of choosing med students based on more than just marks was particularly directed against Asian applicants. Why would you make such a correlation if you didn't believe in it yourself?

[Guest Ian Wong]

Is your friend in my class MW? You can email me for some of my background, but I don't think I'll post it here. Suffice it to say that I didn't do French immersion; French being relatively useless here in Vancouver/Victoria compared with Cantonese and other Asian languages. mdpremie@yahoo.com

 

I think GPA is a better measure than the MCAT, and I believe that a minimum competence in either is sufficient for med school. It ain't rocket science here, that's for sure. Beyond an adequate minimum threshold, I don't think you gain a much stronger med student as the GPA and MCAT scores increase. Rather, at that point, I think you start looking at the intangibles, and what that student can bring into the medical school class. A class of people all with 4.0's and sky high MCAT's isn't one that I'd like to be a part of, unless they also bring in just as many intangibles as the much larger pool of 3.8's with average MCAT's can supply.

 

I think the interviews are a very important part of the application puzzle, because regardless of the duration of the interview itself, it's a chance to see the person behind the numbers. If you don't interview well, that is going to be a big obstacle here at UBC, and it will continue to be an obstacle in whatever med school you end up attending as you prepare for the CaRMS match. Communication skills are important for our curriculum, and they are crucial for our profession. If you can interview well, chances are good that somewhere in your background you have those strong communication skills.

 

BC has a physician shortage primarily because 300 physicians leave BC annually, either through migration or through retirement/attrition. We import a large number of doctors in from other provinces, and of course, having students leave the province doesn't help matters either. However, I'm a little suspicious of that news article: a recent one interviewing five Anesthesia residents stated that all five were leaving for greener employment or fellowship opportunities in the States. Those weren't UBC med students. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of UBC students going down to the US, but relatively few do so for residency (probably at most five per year), and if they do after residency, they are so far removed from the med school application process (some 6-9 years later) that it's a moot point anyway.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest hugs2all]

Ian,

 

I don't think anyone is trying to say that the resulting UBC med class is comprised of poor quality applicants, but that many applicants who may be more qualified are unfairly rejected because of UBC's completely subjective criteria. If everyone with an MCAT score >/= 30 and a GPA >/= 3.3 is put on an equal footing to begin with, then the only admissions criteria left, namely interviews, recommendation letters, and extracurricular activities, are very subjective.

 

Interview scores can vary widely for an applicant depending on the interviewers he/she happens to get. For example (one out of many I could describe), one of my friends got an interview score of about 36th percentile the first year he applied to UBC, then the 13th percentile the next year. I highly doubt that his interpersonal skills could have deteriorated so drastically within that one year, especially since he had obtained much more experience with medical school interviews during that year.

 

As for extracurricular activities, I doubt that everyone in the UBC med class has done something so spectacular that it could be compared to joining the Olypmic team. I mention this only because I applied unsuccessfully to UBC as a 3rd year undergrad and was told that one of the reasons I was not accepted was that I did not have enough "personal achievement". When I asked what they meant by "personal achievement", I was given the example of "joining the Olympic team". And yes, the person who told me this (Ms. Jeffs?) sounded completely serious. I was applied to UBC again as a fourth year undergrad, but I did not see anyway of improving my application in the way they wanted me to (i.e. joining the Olympic team)...so I did try, but again failed to be admitted.

 

Although MCAT scores are not the best judge of who would become the best clinician twenty years down the road, it does reflect one's work ethic, quick throught processes, and future success as a medical student.

 

1) Higher MCAT scores correlate with better board scores and, therefore, better match results.

2) Higher MCAT scores will probably also predict how well you will do in the preclinical courses.

3) Who is going to learn more in an eight week internal med rotation...the one with the work ethic to get an MCAT of 40 or someone with a score of 30? Who is going to be willing to stay in the hospital longer to impress the attending?

[Guest not rex morgan]

I'd like to start off by saying that I too have suffered rejection from the good folk at UBC, and a few others. I understand the frustration of seeing many people that I personally know will make kickass doctor not get in, and total jerks get in. It's very disheartening. There was no way I was going to the states, so for the two years I didn't get in, I decided to do things that, given the opportunity to go to med school in the future, I would not be able to do. I did some research, and while I didn't save African children from landmines, I went to India and worked with a couple of organisations there. This was not to pad my resume (although it did look good). These things were things that I really wanted to do. I have sat through their "transparent" process. They were the only school that did bother to meet with students, so I give them credit for that. The meeting I had two years ago was frightening. The woman actually suggested I try doing something to improve my application, that was in fact, on my application. Good process in theory, not so much in practice. The last meeting I had (ie, the second time I was rejected...preinterview I might add) was more productive. She read my application, which helped. The comment about the olympic athlete was brought up. It was used in the category of "high level of achievement in any aspect of human endevor." The comment she made was tempered by a remark about how basically nobody does well in that category, but it is there to be additive if anyone really excelled at something. Incidently, publishing a paper would be included in that category, which does facilitate research/clinician encouragement.

 

I am now in medicine, and I must say, while I was quite jaded from previous years, I am really impressed with the class. Alot of really wonderful people. While there will always be personality conflicts, the class on the most part is friendly, very bright, and most importantly, really interesting. I suspect other years are like that too, and the jerks I noticed getting in before were a very small percent. (and that's statistics, and sample bias for you...if you are talking about breeding researchers that is)

 

One thing to note about researchers, the md/phd folk are not going to be seeing this tuition increase the rest of us are seeing, plus, these guys are funded; med students aren't. UBC is also focussing on admitting more people to the md/phd program. You can argue this is peanuts compared to the states, and it is, but it is a step in the right direction if you ask me. One thing to keep in mind is that in the states, they spend 12% of their GNP on healthcare, we spend 10% I think. We all know how scary their healthcare system is. I know one man who worked in hospitals down there and saw a patient with a hernia the size of a basketball b/c he couldn't afford the healthcare. In the states, the money goes to research, in Canada, it is supposed to go to delivering healthcare. You can fill in your own arguement on how that's working out.

 

As for the MCAT as the be-all and end-all. I see your point. It is the only thing that is standardised. I sort of agree with you in theory, but I think the theory is based on a bad set of assumptions. First of all, I would have done way better on the MCAT if I could speed read. I would have made a great editor if I could do that, but not necessarily a great doc b/c of my speedy skills. The written component was frightening. I always got As in university English, (trust me, when I'm not writing posts, I'm actually a decent writer) but did poorly on the written component (granted, maybe they couldn't read it all). The exam tests basic science, not medical science, or logic and critical thought. Medicine involves alot of logic and critical thought. Additionally, being booksmart is imperative, that's why they set standards, but these smarts will get you nowhere if you can't build a rapport with patients and elicit a good history. While the interview process is flawed, I really think this is the only arena you can test communication skills. I understand some people don't do well in interviews. I never really did before. They are really unnatural. I can hold intelligent conversations, but a one-sided conversation make me uncomfortable. So...I walked in thinking "don't f%$^ this up." Then I thougt to myself "don't say F^$#." Great motto to live by.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi hugs2all,

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> If everyone with an MCAT score >/= 30 and a GPA >/= 3.3 is put on an equal footing to begin with, then the only admissions criteria left, namely interviews, recommendation letters, and extracurricular activities, are very subjective.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> Quite right. Slide your GPA threshold up a bit and you have UBC's criteria right there. Even with most students having a 30's MCAT and a GPA of say 3.7 doesn't guarantee an acceptance because there are still more applicants each year with those numbers than there are available spots. UBC believes that people with those sorts of numbers are strong enough academically for med school, and they then look for those "intangibles." The alternative is to slide the GPA and MCAT requirements so high that only 120 students could apply each year, and then we'd have complete objectivity, but I submit that this hypothetical class wouldn't be as diverse nor as strong as a class with a wider "net" of applicants.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I was given the example of "joining the Olympic team". And yes, the person who told me this (Ms. Jeffs?) sounded completely serious. I was applied to UBC again as a fourth year undergrad, but I did not see anyway of improving my application in the way they wanted me to (i.e. joining the Olympic team)...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> I can only hope that you didn't take this comment to heart as the only way to gain an acceptance to med school. Perhaps that was an unfair comment to have made, but you have to be realistic, and if the comment seemed as far-fetched to you as it probably did, then that would have been your opportunity to ask about the backgrounds of the non-Olympic athletes that routinely get accepted to UBC med each year.

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1) Higher MCAT scores correlate with better board scores and, therefore, better match results.

2) Higher MCAT scores will probably also predict how well you will do in the preclinical courses.

3) Who is going to learn more in an eight week internal med rotation...the one with the work ethic to get an MCAT of 40 or someone with a score of 30? Who is going to be willing to stay in the hospital longer to impress the attending?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Reply to 1 and 2) MCAT scores have completely NOT correlated with med school peformance in courses thus far. As I've mentioned previously, the material we learn is well within the grasp of someone who "only" gets a 30 on the MCAT, which is still well above the MCAT average. Board scores are also not used for match results in any Canadian med school, as our Canadian boards are written only AFTER the match has already occurred.

 

Reply to 3) And you can deduce all of this from a single 8 hour exam? It certainly doesn't appear to be the case at UBC. I think you're being speculative here at best.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest D]

What's with this "not enough personal achivements" business at UBC? BC's in-province acceptance rate is actually higher than places like Ontario, Alberta, etc., yet the whole class is composed of people with Olympic-like accomplishments? Maybe it's something in the British Columbia water that turns you into an über-applicant.

 

For schools like U. Alberta, Western, U of T, etc. the students that get in are all pretty strong applicants, but I'm sure that the vast majority them have not started a volunteer organization in Africa, won an Olympic gold medal, or published in Nature on a monthly basis. I wouldn't go so far as to completely agree with Thewonderer's "conspiracy theory", but perhaps this "accomplishments" requirement is just BS, an excuse for the admissions people to select using whatever the heck criteria they want.