UBC selection process is so screwed up!

[Guest BC guy]

Rejection letter has 4 numbers on it: the overall average, the average in last 60 credits and the prerequisiste average on the left hand side calling all 3 numbers academic qualities; and the right hand side has just one number called interview. And I have heard that some people who have gone to have their appointment to find out why they did not get in and thought that they had fixed the problem for next year's application still do not get in the year after. I am debating now whether to go to an advising session, but I probably won't. Thanks to this message board b/c due to the posts here my rejection was not totally unexpected although still disappointing.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi BC Guy,<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I am debating now whether to go to an advising session, but I probably won't.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> I hope that you change your mind and attend that session, with a number of direct questions as to why your application was rejected, and what you can improve on for next year should you elect to re-apply. I think that after all the effort you have put into your application at this point, that this additional effort, as painful as it may be, would be very worthwhile. Particularly if you go in with those questions prepared ahead of time, and with an open demeanor.

 

I wish you all the best luck in your applications to the other medical schools.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Jase133]

Although I did not go to an advising session but called in instead, I found the feedback quite helpful. In fact, from what the person over the phone told me (it took quite a lot of questions to get to the crux of it... they weren't open to telling you all your mistakes and you really had to ask the right questions), the info I got not only applied to my failed UBC application last year but also to my applications at other schools. For me, it helped my application this year. With that said, however, I know people who also applied everywhere and didn't get accepted into UBC only to be accepted everywhere else (ex. for one person: Queen's, Western, Mac, Alberta, etc) even after they went to the advising session. Consequently, I think regardless of whether it helps your application at UBC, it'll help your other applications - which is more than what other schools gave me last year (ex. I called up Queen's and all they said was that my interview sucked... "Can you be more specific?" "No"). So, in the end, I took what I got from UBC and applied it to my other applications. That helped.

[Guest BC guy]

Thanks for your encouragement and will think about going to the advising session. I am 19, in my third year, and so still have some time to reach my career goal

[Guest Ian Wong]

Thewonderer,

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> So they would give the applicants their rightful academic percentile, and just pick a low-enough interview percentile so these applicants won't get in.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->1) So how does this in any way benefit the medical school? What would be the gain of this procedure? If we really wanted to hose all the 90% students uniformly, as you suggest, why would we even bother giving them an interview? I've already mentioned before that the admissions committee functions as a COMMITTEE, so you would need to convince the various faculty members and the two student reps in order to pull this feat off.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> From my standpoint, however, I just don't see anything "open" about it, esp. in light of the skewing of numbers (female:male ratio, seemingly disadvantage for 90%+ applicants, etc.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->2) So then, why exactly do we bother posting these statistics on the web? Why do we even give you a break down of our evaluation of your application? Many of the other medical schools give rudimentary lip service as to the statistics of their medical school class. Certainly, there is no law or rule compelling us to release these statistics. In many of the other med schools, you can't even determine the male:female ratio or the grade distribution of the classes. Try figuring out the other medical schools' stats. I'll even give you the link: www.premed101.com/medschools.html Can't do it, can you? I believe that our open-ness is a large feature of why many rejected people call our process into question.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> You think that two 30/40 min interviews can differentiate the truly compassionate vs the I-want-to-be-doc-to-make-money type. And I congratulate UBC med admissions for doing such a fantastic job that other med schools have failed to achieve.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->3) Now you're putting words into my mouth and that's poor form. I think you can tell a lot about a person in the interview process, much, much more so than you can from their GPA and MCAT scores. You can explore their motivations for medicine, get a sense of their preparedness to accept this career, explain away deficiencies in their transcript (perhaps due to illness, family difficulties, employment conflicts, whatever), and you can certainly evaluate their communication skills. Think about how much ground you can cover in someone's history in 50 minutes to an hour and that amount is VAST.

 

I don't think I've ever, ever, stated that UBC med admissions does a fantastic job that other med schools don't. That's a blatant fabrication on your part. Quite the contrary, I've met med students from many other schools in Canada, and enjoyed talking and working with them. Even this very forum is proof that there are good people everywhere. What I said was that I believe our process WORKS. We have good and diverse people in each class, they work hard, do well in clerkships, match well into residencies, and go on to become practising doctors. That's what it's all about. I'm sure other med schools do it well as well. The fact that I think our admissions process is a good one doesn't in any way, shape, or form denigrate the admissions process of other schools. I'm not speaking for them, or putting them down in any way.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> But what is so wrong about giving the superstar (90%+) an edge in admissions?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->4) There's nothing wrong with that. Lots of other schools do. We have a different philosophy, which is that above a certain academic threshold (which appears to be around 80% if you look at the above table from a few messages back), you have the academic skill set to master the medical school curriculum. I happen to agree with this. The 90% person still needs excellent non-academic stuff to compete against the 80% applicant, and there's a heck of a lot more 80% applicants out there.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I just don't think that UBC admissions committee with a piece of personal statement and 2-3 interviews can differentiate the mature from the immature and do what you imply it could.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->5) Given that virtually every other medical school in North America uses personal statements in conjunction with reference letters and interviews, I guess we'll all have to disagree with you on this point. Medical schools use the autobiographies, reference letters, and interviews because of the belief that they work. Period. In the same fashion, we also use the GPA and MCAT significantly (lots of people are rejected pre-interview because of this), just not as heavily in the end as many other schools.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> But I can at least sit here and compare the GPA and MCAT and say that my class is more intelligent.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->6) I guess I'll have to give you that one seeing as you refuse to name your medical school. Congrats. I hope that those MCAT scores come in really handy in your interactions with your patients. Myself I'll just continue on in clerkships knowing that my classmates and I support each other, we teach each other, and ultimately that we'll be competant doctors when we graduate.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> But the needs to take highly intelligent and dedicated students who can cram in the immense body of knowledge and can think on the feet quick, seems to get shoved aside on this board.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->7) Are you for real? Is an average GPA of 82% and average MCAT score of 30R (the most recent UBC entering class in 2001) somehow too intelligently deprived to remember the mnemonic "MUDPILE CATS" when evaluating the differential of anion gap metabolic acidosis? Or seeing a lobar pneumonia on a chest x-ray? Or recognising ST-segment elevation on an EKG? Or giving an immunization shot? Or counselling a mom on the proper technique of breast-feeding? Or writing an amoxicillin prescription for an acute ear infection? How mentally hard do you think the actual knowledge base of medicine is? It sure isn't rocket science.

 

The most important point about medicine, as you've correctly alluded to above, is to know when something is beyond your limits, at which point you <!--EZCODE BOLD START--> REFER THE PATIENT ON<!--EZCODE BOLD END--> to someone who knows more than yourself. If my epileptic patient with diabetes and chronic renal failure suddenly decompensates, I refer them to people who know what they're doing. I expect that even a student with higher academic qualifications (such as from your school) would do the same. Right?

 

In the last month and a half, I've had to explain to patients why they now need to take medication for the rest of their life. I've explained to two parents why their son has had an intracranial bleed thanks to hospital medication. I've talked about palliative care options to a worried parent for an extremely sick child. I've called up rural doctors from all over BC to explain the course of treatment and discharge plans for patients who were sick enough to need the services of a Vancouver hospital. I routinely hand over information to cross-covering residents regarding acutely sick patients. I've consulted numerous specialists, called up pharmacists, worked with respiratory therapists and dieticians, and share information regularly with nurses. I presented a paper at a national conference in front of 80-100 people. All in the last 45 days. Yes, I believe that strong communication skills, and that the human side of a person is crucial to becoming a good doctor.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest BrainDrain]

Hey BC guy,

I hear you man...if I were sick, I would want a doctor who knows his/her stuff rather than the charming olympian with a lot of "non-academic" activities.

 

Sorry about UBC but trust me, you are not alone. There are many of us who have 4.0GPA, scholarships, very good EC's, MCATs, and research and can't seem to figure out what the heck is going on. It's UBCs loss, not yours.

 

You can try to go ask why they rejected you but be prepared for the bullsh*t they will dump on you. I was in a similar situation at UofT and they told me I needed to work on a couple things (picky details that gave me the impression that they had nothing) and I would surely be "very competitive" the following year. So I spend a year to fix those "couple things", reapplied, and find out I didn't even get an interview!

 

I was also surprised that some of my friends with similarly high stats were also rejected, so we all tried our luck by applying to the US and we all are going to top20 medical schools in the States next year. BC guy, with your credentials, you are definitely Ivy League material.

 

Join the BrainDrain train!

[Guest Beaver]

Hi there

 

While I did interview at UBC this admissions cycle, I am not going to slam the school, I think everyone should firstly appreciate the difficulty in selecting candidates from a pool of stellar applicants.

 

A hockey analogy could be "Cujo" ,"Broduer" , "Theodore", "Hasiek" who would you take as your goalie? there could be arguements for each and it really is a bit of a toss up.

 

Now during my interview (of which I did not encounter this at any other interview) I was asked about my involvement in hockey (i play mens hockey in a pick up league for fun and excersise) They wanted to know and I quote "Why didn't you ever play for the Olympic team"

I was sidewalled with that question. They kept pushing, why didnt you play for the Olympic team, dont you want to win a gold medal, we like people who play for the olympics. They looked dissappointed almost disgusted that I didn't, and then wrote some stuff down (maybe put a no check mark besides "plays for olympic team"

 

Well gee I guess I should have training my butt off 12 hours a day for the Olympics, even though I have no interest or desire and I'm sure no ability to compete at that level. What was I thinking devoting myself to the medical sciences by persuing a Phd and post doc studies, surely an Olympic hockey player would make a better doctor than myself. I just found the question rude and frankly absurd.

 

It will be interesting to see if I get rejected and whether the feedback circulates around my "olympic" aspirations. Of course I would go to UBC if not accepted anywhere else, but quite frankly UBC is my dead last choice.

[Guest NBer]

To BC guy and brain drain

Just my 2 cents worth...I would rather have an doctor treating me how finished undergrad with an 80% avg while training for the olympics...in my opinion anyone who can manage a full course load with ex-currs and training (say...3 hours a day) for the olympics shows that they have good time management skills and can handle more than one stressful thing at once, then another 90% average student who is sitting home everynight studying to get that 5-10% higher than the rest of their class (this is just to argue...I'm not saying this is always the case...)...

when I was in undergrad, the students who got the 90's were the one's harassing the TA's and prof's to get that extra tid-bit of info, and make sure they had the right answer... instead of not worrying about the right answer and working it out on their own...who would you rather work with...someone who thinks things through on their own, or someone who can't make any decisions b/c they are too afraid of making a mistake...

ok..now I seem to have gone off topic..enough...

cheers

[Guest BC guy]

Hi:

Thanks for your kind words. What to do, what to do.

I come from a fairly large family and already some of my brothers and sisters are in professional schools so cost to my family would be a big factor in going down to the states. Happy to say that my 3 years at UBC had been a free ride and more (same for my siblings while at UBC) so I guess the UG years are not a total loss. I have been a TA for a certain course for the pass two years at UBC, they hired me due to my 100% achievement in that course .

 

I had spoken to a UBC med school prof and he gave me some of his thoughts. I will not post all his comments to me here but one thing he said was that he thought my age might be a factor, but I don't think so as they had admitted an 18 year old girl last year. In the meantime, I have a clinical research position for the summer to distract me from my "failure". I honestly do not know how to improve on my non-academics at this point. (I am also musical.) Haven't stand on my head yet though.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Beaver,

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I just found the question rude and frankly absurd.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> Welcome to stress interview-land. The key here is composure, not content. Scattered throughout this forum and interviewfeedback.com are references to this technique, which are also used by other med schools, in business and job interviews, etc. The question is designed to provoke a reaction from you, and the interviewer isn't looking to you for a correct answer, but rather a correct APPROACH. You're going to run into lots of people in the health-care field that will make unreasonable demands on you, or have unreasonable expectations.

 

Having an approach to working with them without getting sidetracked or flustered is what this type of interview question is designed to suss out. I'm sure you did just fine.

 

Did you have an opportunity to attend the med student presentations or the wine and cheese? I agree with you that you don't get the real flavour of the medical school by the interviews alone. However, the interactions with the presentations and especially the wine and cheese event consistently get great evaluations, and it's a chance for the premed students to get to know UBC through the med student classes.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest BC guy]

I did not have to study the way you seemed to think that 90%+ people have to do; in fact for my exams, I usually just read over my notes a couple of times. I attribute it to a better memory and better reasoning skills. I am capable of learning on my own too. I still have time to do my volunteers, sports, music, student governance and a girlfriend. Still not an olympian, b/c I am not physically able to be one. Just a thought, how about an olympian of the mind instead. !)

[Guest D]

Just a thought, but most people don't think they came across as arrogant during interviews. But that doesn't mean they didn't perceive you like that. It's definitely important to toot your own horn and sell yourself in the interview, but you have to be careful how you do it. And yes, there's always the possibility they rejected you for the "wrong" reasons (bias etc.). That's why it's important to apply to at least several schools. Best of luck.

[Guest YongQ]

I noticed a lot of people tend to post messages like "I don't know why I got rejected - I do this and that and have these numbers..." but the interviewers don't only see this side of you. You know what, BC guy, Braindrain, and Thewonderer & friends, perhaps you were rejected because your interviewers sensed that you didn't know your weaknesses well. You only tell us the good things, which of course is necessary because we all have strengths and you want to put in your two cents about your good qualities. But it's the whole package that comes across during the interview.

 

This is only one of the many possibilities you were rejected, so don't think that they rejected you for no reason, or that it <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> had<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> to be because you were unlucky.

 

YONGQ

[Guest yo]

i just want to give a little suggestion before you pursue the Braindrain path............. don't forget about applying to other Canadian schools!!! while you might be frustrated/disappointed/angry at the UBC admissions process, don't let that interfere with your love for this great city and the people here. If you are a true Canadian/Vancouverite at heart, then you know you want to return someday. There is nothing wrong with going to med school elsewhere and coming back to work in VAncouver eventually. Sure, UBC "hates" you but that doesn't mean Vancovuer hates you. What can be sweeter than going to another school (perhaps getting a better education, new experience) and coming back a few years later, sitting on the UBC admissions committee and help undo whatever unjustice for future generations that was done to you??

 

you mentioned that finances could be a potential problem for you studying in the US. well, i think that you can get a much better deal going to some Canadian schools, especially with UBC tuitions expected to increase significantly. Take your next neighbour province Alberta for example, tuition is only around $6,000 and not going up fast any time soon, and resources are much more plentiful (all for $6,000)

[Guest BC guy]

"people who live in glass house should not throw stones"

enough said, think about it i)

[Guest BC guy]

Thanks Yo for the words of encouragement! God Bless.

[Guest Beaver]

Hello Ian

 

Yes I can totally understand the so called "push the buttons" line of questioning to see if it provokes any weird or agressive tendancies. I have interviewed at 6 med schools in Canada this year so I have had a nice dose of that everywhere. I have no problem with that at all, its just the way they conducted themselves around my lack of Olympic aspirations, it actually made them look rather foolish. But oh well, they perhaps were trying the old push the buttons technique albeit doing a pretty lousy job at it (they were squirming and stuttering more than me )

 

I did attend the Premed "warm-up" so to speak. I dont know..... I was talking to some other candidates there who agreed with me in that it felt like a lot of smoke and mirrors. It was hard to put our fingers on it, but the hard sell was a touch unnatural. I did meet some great people though and all in all I'm sure its a great school. Of course one big plus of going there would be to hang out with the man of hour Ian Wong

 

Thanks Ian

 

(Sorry if this message is plagued with spelling errors and incorehent language, I'm still a little intoxicated over the leafs 4-3 win over the Sens !)

[Guest YongQ]

Hi,

 

What do you mean, BCguy? I don't use that proverb regularly, but I think it translated to, "Don't instigate if you're prone to retaliation." Could you explain to me your comment? I think maybe you're offended by what I posted, but I certainly didn't mean it that way so I apologize.

 

YONGQ

[Guest MS1]

I think Yo gave great advice. I love Vancouver and will probably go back to Vancouver to work once I graduate from my US med school. If UBC had accepted me, I would probably have gone to UBC (although the US medical school facilities and administration are much more impressive and accomodating) mainly to be close to my family in Vancouver. The low tuition is a great plus too, although it is going to increase in the next few years. If you want to go back to Vancouver after your medical education, it is probably best to stay in a Canadian medical school for the lower education.

 

As for the interview feedback advice for UBC, I didn't find it very helpful. They seemed to be picking on minor details that cannot be changed...eg. not enough commitment to volunteer work (despite my volunteering for 3 places, one of which I stayed at for 3 years)...and not being on the Olympic team etc. But you never know, they might give you some useful advice, and it doesn't take too much time to hear them out

 

As for getting good grades and being in the Olympics, I don't know if I would be able to handle that. But I know getting a 90+ average didn't take too much of my time as I still had a boyfriend, did research, volunteer, held office at multiple clubs and ballroom danced at the same time I probably sucked at the interview...

[Guest Ian Wong]

Beav,

 

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> I did attend the Premed "warm-up" so to speak. I dont know..... I was talking to some other candidates there who agreed with me in that it felt like a lot of smoke and mirrors. It was hard to put our fingers on it, but the hard sell was a touch unnatural.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Was this the presentation or the wine and cheese? The year that we put on the wine and cheese, we essentially tossed everyone into our alumni center and had people fend for themselves. No presentations, no speeches, no sell.

 

The idea then was for premeds to meet med students in an informal setting away from the admissions committee and the faculty, so you could ask the questions that you might not otherwise want to ask. I think I talked to roughly 20 people that night just by mingling through the crowd and answering random questions. The Med 1 class organized the admissions events, and from all accounts that I heard, things went well.

 

At what time did the "hard sell" part happen? Can you describe it a bit?

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest BC guy]

Ditto for my interview I guess. But it is too bad that when they heaped awards other than academics upon you in your UG years, I just assumed that I do have some of the desirable qualities. From my interview result, a mixed message is received. Hot and cold from this university. Good luck to you in your studies.

[Guest Beaver]

Hi Ian

The event I'm talking about was the one on March 7th. I believe it was the orientation meeting. I think it was from 5-7pm but I cant find my interview email invite to tell you exactly when it was. The people I spoke to just really seemed to turn conversations into everything great about coming to UBC. But then again, the school has to sell itself while we had to sell ourselves.

 

BTW has anyone dropped out of your class? There was a rumour (among a few friends I know) that a couple of people dropped out of your class. Not due to UBC (sorry wonderer) but I think they were having trouble hacking the volume of material.

 

In any case, thanks Ian, its too bad I didn't get a chance to meet you, it would have been nice to see what you had to say about things (of course without logging on/typing/waiting for a response etc. )

 

later the beav

[Guest Ian Wong]

Beav,

 

Rumours have a way of spreading. I generally prefer to leave my classmates out of the discussion, particularly when it comes to their medical education. We lost one classmate in first year due to health reasons. Another person elected to take a year off after Med 2 to do traveling and volunteering work in Central America. A third person ran into academic difficulty after Med 2, and is not currently attending classes with us in Med 3.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest BC guy]

From this message board the impression I got is that the UBC system has had its problem in the past few years and the whole admission system needs some

housecleaning. This is just an observation.

Congrats to you and your friends for getting in the US top med schools. I also should have the foresight to have a back up plan with applications to the US med schools as well. I guess it would be better to apply after I get my degree first? Would you direct me to where I might find the info re applying to the US and if you have any suggestions I would appreciate hearing about it.

Also, thanks for the vote of confidence.

[Guest Ian Wong]

BC Guy,<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...the impression I got is that the UBC system has had its problem in the past few years and the whole admission system needs some

housecleaning.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->It doesn't need housecleaning at all. That's an arguably misguided interpretation by a very small and very vocal subset of applicants, namely those who didn't get in, felt that they deserved an acceptance letter, and are now voicing their displeasure. I don't see a lot of substance behind the statements and consequently I've spent a lot of time refuting those points. I believe that our admissions process, on the whole, works well. We have good diverse classes, and we produce good doctors, just like other Canadian medical schools.

 

Unlike many Canadian schools, most US med schools will not consider your application unless you have a degree, or are on track to have that degree before you matriculate into their schools. Therefore, a very common time to apply to US schools is during fourth year of undergrad. You should note that the application process for US schools starts much earlier than Canadian schools (I believe it is in early June of this year for this current admissions cycle), and due to rolling admissions, the earlier you submit, the earlier you can expect to receive secondary applications, interview notices, and eventual acceptance letters.

 

There is some information in the "Applying to US schools" forum here, but I would suggest heading over to the StudentDoctor forums, which are based in the States and undoubtedly the largest premed forums on the internet, and which are also focussed predominantly on US schools. You'll gather a wealth of information regarding US medical schools there.

 

www.studentdoctor.net

 

Best of luck!

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3