Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

Jobless Dentists In Major Cities (especially B.C.)?!


Guest LestatZinnie

Recommended Posts

Guest LestatZinnie

For those of you who are in or going to be in dental school, consider this:

I have talked to a few dentists and new graduates and they say that it is very hard to find a full time position in lower mainland, BC. Many are only working part time and according to the dentist I talked to, there are so many people setting up new clinics now, even in more rural areas like prince george, that getting started would be very difficult. So how can our 40k/yr tuition be justified?? The situation seems to be the same across all metro areas in Canada, and this has me worried. Any thoughts or different takes on this topic????

 

 

 

 

Edited the subject to remove the all-caps. Please type in normal lower-case letters; it's a lot easier to read. Thx. -Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest toothy

if you can't get full time work at one boss, get another part-

time job elsewhere! Working half a week at one place and half a week at another will give you the same income as a full time job and more exposure and experience. As population trends go, the retiring baby boomer generation will free up many large practices and the dentist/patient ratio will improve. The only people who will be jobless are those who are too picky about work/pay/location. If worse comes to worse how about being an associate in a smaller town for a few years until debts are gone, and then make your way back to the city?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LestatZinnie

good points. however the dentist i talked to says that associateship is terrible, because you get 'handed down' all the troublesome cases that the boss doesn't want, i.e. hard to manage patients, emergencies, etc. he even said that he is glad that his sons are not in dentistry, because he does not have a clinic to hand down to them and the start-up cost, not to mention tuition, is just too high. in addition, i believe that salary for associateship is terrible (anybody got a figure?), so it's tought to have to pay back all the debt AND save up to buy practice. any other stories/comments people would like to share??

i'd like to know what i'm getting into....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest toothy

hmm I tend to hear it's closer to 40%, maybe it varies between provinces... in the first 2 years 70-100k before income tax is a common figure I often hear.

 

lestat, nobody wants to be an associate forever, if they see dentistry as a lifelong dedication (as opposed to someone who would rather not have the responsibility in order to play or raise a family). As far as the start-up costs being high, you can save money by buying into a practice (maybe bit by bit), buying older equipment, finding a cheaper location (lower rent, further from city), etc. Not all assoc. bosses are there to give you a hard time, it may depend on your luck, but if things are rough just don't continue the contract and work somewhere else. Emergencies and tough patients may not be your favorite but perhaps it's a good "trial by fire" too.

 

tuition is high, but this just means putting off exotic trips, big houses and luxury cars for 5-10 years. Costs will only go up, so for now let's just work hard, get accepted and graduate quickly :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest toothy

my DPH prof suggests overhead is closer to 60%, and even lower for specialties... associates aren't really a tool for the owner to make money; it's more to increase patient base without increasing backlog of work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest bcdentalgirl

I have asked a couple of dentists whether the financial investment is worth it and both have replied with an emphatic "yes". Maybe not the most scientific method, but it helps...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LestatZinnie

i have also asked someone from CDA, and he says definitely 'yes' as well. However I know for fact that lower mainland is oversaturated right now, but over the next 5-10 years who knows how it will evolve. The dentist I talked to gave me several examples of difficulties and challenges dentists in metro areas face today that got me a little wary of the fact that the future prospect may not be as rosy as the school officials or bankers are painting. I think the best way to find out is to ask dentists and new grads- so if anybody has anymore stories please share!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DDSad

Perhaps I can shed some light into the current situation for NEWLY minted DDS's.

 

I graduated in 1999 with a DDS from UofT. Since then I have been unable to find a fulltime position in Toronto or the surrounding areas. The problems that I have encountered when linking up 2 part-time jobs is the fact that most if not all places want me available for at least the weekend and some evening nights. Since my current part-time position already requires me to work Saturdays and Mon,Tues evenings its near impossible to find another part-time job that doesn't overlap with this schedule.

 

My salary from this part time position is approximately 43,000 per year. Not bad for part-time work but it means that after tax I make 2,800 per year. With 800 per month going to student loans(and my debt is nowhere near what they are charging now under deregulation) I'm left with 2,000 of which 1,000 goes to rent and 1,000 goes to hydro food etc. with nothing left over to save for a practice or retirement. I'm not whining, I'm just presenting the realities that my fellow grads and myself are facing.

 

Kelly120 you speak in riddles, but in any case your riddles make no sense. If you say associates are paid 35% gross because overhead is 65% that leaves nothing for the dentisit who is employing you!!!! Do you think he brought you on board so that you can cover your own overhead and keep 100% of what's left? Any fool will tell you he wants a percentage of the profit. In my experience, a 60% OH rate is pretty standard. The dentist will take 15% and that leaves the associate with 25% of the gross billing. The advantage that Associates bring to an office is that the dentist can stick them in there weekends and evenings so the office can generate a little revenue for the dentists and increase the patient base while before it would sitting idle

 

Yes dentists DID have it good. Most dentists that answer with a resounding are usually in their late 40's early 50's who graduated in the days when dental schools only turned out 15 grads. Over the years they established their patient base with little outside competition to interfere. Today things in dentistry are cutthroat. Open up the yellow pages, in Toronto there are 35 pages of dentist ads. Dentists offering firesales with teethwhitenings for $99, Dentists willing to pick-up and drive patients home (yes that's right, I had a friend who graduated with me that worked as an associate in an office that had her do this task). And now flashy T.V commercials (the profession is out of despiration shaming itself into the likes of selling used cars, shame, shame) How many commercials have you seen for dermatologists?Family Docs?any other specialists. None because its against the professional code to advertise. It's against the Dental professional code also, but things are so desperate that Dentists are willing to degrade themselves and the profession.

 

 

Starting one's own practice usually runs in the 300,000-400,000 range with used equip etc. I think the instruments that you get in school will be sufficient to get started however usually more are purchased along with an autoclave, impression trays, etc etc etc.

 

My next move will probably be to locate 10-12 hours from Toronto, up North in Timmins or Thunder Bay, I heard they don't have this saturation problem up there and there is room for growth unlike Toronto. Yes it sucks but I'm not really sure what other avenue to pursue.

 

This is my story I'm sorry I can't be more optomistic, I just feel as though I have an obligation to disclose the reality of what's out there. I really can't see how they justify charging those tuition fees. The profession today does not warrant it unless your willing to locate in a very remote area of Canada.

 

Cheers

DDsad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest toothy

DDsad,

 

thanks for your story, now I know to hang on to that dentist who told me he plans to pay 40% to his associate!

 

Sorry to hear that you have not been able to find good fit with a second part time job, but I know an '01 grad who puts in about 6-8 hours a day in a 5.5 day/week. Not all the hours are productive, though, as the appointment schedule is not fully booked.

 

I agree that the cutthroat mentality is becoming more evident in big cities. Unprofessional behaviour like price-haggling, insurance padding (and not chasing after co-payments) are on the rise and if you want to be ethical and economically afloat you should consider smaller towns. |I

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest kellyl20

DDsad:

While overhead is 65% or so, things such as hydro, rent, telephones, receptionists are there regardless if there is an associate or not.

In our family there are a couple of dentists (established), so I am not talking out of my hat. I do know about this profession very well in Vancouver and I also know what my sibling was told by his profs while doing dent at UT.:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LestatZinnie

hi kelly120...can you please tell us any story relating to the current job market?? Considering your background you should a lot of interesting facts that can give us better understanding of the reality concerning dental practices today.....thanks!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MRDDS

hmm, this is my first time posting and this is the first topic that caught my attention. I'm considering applying to dentistry next year and i always thought that the prospects are very good (i read in an article that there will actually be a shortage b/c of all the baby boomers retiring)

should i reconsider? More info would be greatly appreaciated

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest kellyl20

Not too good in large cities of Vancouver or Toronto. I actually do know of a dentist who does have a billing of about 600K and his overhead is just about 60%, but his office has not been renovated for many many years now, and looks really dated. However, his patients keep coming back b/c they really like him. His scenario is not the norm here, the 65-70% is the usual. This dentist works fast and he is good. Better opportunities in smaller towns.

Sibling say that UT is a very good dental school with lots of clinic times. First rate teaching there also; so for about 20K tuition and instruments, it is not too bad a deal in comparison.;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest kellyl20

Sons and daughters (in dentistry) of dentists usually end up going into their parent's practice, therefore even with retirements coming up there is not as much opportunities as one would think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest dentwannabe

Does anyone know whether overstaturation of dentists is mainly a problem in B.C. and Ontario, or if it's a country wide phenomena?

 

Also, with all of this talk about jobless dentists in Canada, has anyone thought about going to the states after they graduate? Is this less of a problem there? What are the pros and cons associated with going to the US?

 

dentwannabe:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest DDSad

Hello There:

 

There are a few issues to consider when contemplating a move to the U.S.

 

1. The Examination process to become licenced in the US is much more difficult than what we have to pass for the RCDS here in Canada.

 

2. It's has in recent months become very difficult for Canadians to get Visa's to go to the US. I hear even getting a student Visa is a huge pain now as a result of obvious events going on in the world.

 

3. In order to obtain a VISA you will have to be sponsored by your employer. No dentist in their right mind will pay for lawyers etc. not to mention all the hassles to get a Canadian Associates when the US state and private schools are churning out Dentists by the truckload.

 

On a side note. Does anyone know if Pharmacy programs offer some exceptions to those have completed dentistry? Now there is an area with a severe shortage and pay packages starting in the 100,000 range with signing bonuses and even cars or the promise to pay off student loans. A few friends of mine have headed to the US and the pharmacies hired the lawyers and took care of all the paperwork to get them down there from a VISA perspective. They then proceeded to payoff all of their loans, give them relocation allowances and provide them with benefits, pension plans and stock options. Sweet and an avenue for students to consider who have yet to sink the 30,000 per year or so needed for Dentistry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest bcdentalgirl

anyone reading this thread might also be interested in reading the following...

pub125.ezboard.com/fpreme...D=32.topic

 

and of course:

jobfutures.ca/noc/3113.shtml

 

for BC:

www.workfutures.bc.ca/EN/...13_e1.html

 

Not in any way trying to argue against the valid points raised here by others, just presenting some of the information that's out there right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LestatZinnie

hihi bcdental girl

seeing as we will be classmates together next yr, would you be interested to exchange some info?? send me a private message or something

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest dentwannabe

Thanks for posting that info bcdentalgirl. It's nice to see a different perspective. Reading this thread made me question whether or not I should continue to pursue dent. Don't get me wrong, dent is my passion, but its hard to justify $150K debt if you aren't sure that you'll be able to get a job when you graduate. Like you, the dentists that I've talked to have said that if they had to do it all over again they would still definitely chose dent. Anyway, I just want to say that I felt a bit of relief as I read through that info and least I'll go into my interviews these next couple of weeks knowing that this is what I really want to do, but also aware of the challenges that may lie ahead....

dentwannabe:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ubcdent

yes...getting a US visa w/ a pharm degree is easy if you are planning to work there as a pharmacist, w/ signing on bonuses and $40 US/hour starting wage and they handle all your visa issues and relocations...the US pharmacies come to ubc every year in hope to recruit the 4th year pharm students...

And for this reason, i'm reconsidering dentistry as my career...i wonder if you can work part-time as a pharmacist and as dentist...does anybody know if you can do that???? cuz i know you cannot be a physician and a pharmacist at the same time (cuz then you would just fill prescriptions that you write for yourself :P ) :rolleyes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest bcdentalgirl

I'm not quite sure if I get the idea. You guys are talking about dentists who also have a degree in pharmacy? Working for a pharmaceutical co.?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Guest DDSad

I'm just curious Kelly, you mentioned that both your parents (or one of your parents are dentists) May I ask what they net after expenses, and are they located in an urban or rural area?

 

 

Thanks for the input :)

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...