Why some schools do not "Require" specific pre-reqs and why do we need a Bachelor's?

[scarface]

if anyone is going to go into medicine just for the money, I truly hope they go into an area with little to no patient contact...

 

Well I did read somewhere that radiology is one of the most highly sought after specialties. And it is a specialty with little to no patient contact. So your wish has been granted.

 

I know some people who wish to apply to meds for the $$$ because they grew up in poverty. One of my friend's mother has to work three jobs to support him and his siblings (she's a single parent), and he works full-time on top of a full course load. He hopes to get into medicine so he can buy his mom a nice house and car. And the people who have dreams of playing in the NBA wish to do so for the same reasons as my friend, it comes down to the almighty dollar. Sure Shaq loves playing ball, but he wouldn't be doing it for a living if he weren't receiving a gargantuan paycheck.

 

So when I refer to people who apply to medicine solely for the $$$, take it in perspective. Some of these "greedy" people do have big hearts, and may have better people skills than those of you who are in it for the "right reasons" (i.e. making a difference and helping others, which I hate to say it, but can be accomplished in many other professions)

[Madz25]

Just to clarify, most of the US BSc/MD, straight-from-high-school programs will take Canadians, so I don't think the quality of Canadian high school students is an issue.

 

This is off-topic but I don't think the quality of HS students is ALL THAT great...apparently Ontario schools are getting rid of calculus??? The curriculum is being 'dumbed down' it seems...

[tmacgirl]

^ Calculus will remain...

[shrink]

And for those of you who want to work in a health care profession (which may or may not be medicine), the average physician makes more $$$ than most other health care professions out there, so if high income is important to you . . . and it will be if you plan on having two or more kids, a house, and two or more cars . . .

 

It totally possible to have 2< kids, a house, and 2< cars without even a 6 digit income...

But if you mean 2 kids that go to private school, a mansion in Rosedale, and 5 Jaguars and Mercedes... well, then you are right.

But I think it's important to recognize that one can have a comfortable (but maybe not 'luxurious') lifestyle without breaking one's back working!

[Maltara]

cclawfjj,

 

Your claims are exaggerated or untrue. Canada's high schools are doing just fine compared to other countries: top 10 out of 40 rich countries in math and reading, according to this article. http://www.economist.com/world/la/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_SJQVRDV

 

Cite me some counter-evidence or point out that article's flaws and your word would have some more credit. Toughening Canada's high school system won't magically fix everything. My brother living in Japan would strongly favour the Canadian high school system over Japan's if choosing for his children: yes, they would ace the SAT from the Japanese system, but the pressure is ridiculous. Moreover, Canada is a multicultural society, whereas your examples are homogeneous. Is somebody who doesn't speak English or French going to get 95% in high school?

 

Finally, your argument that the "Top Korean/Japanese Highschool students know more math/science than the majority of 2nd-3yr Canadian University science students" doesn't tell me anything. Isn't the reverse also true? Do not young Canadian geniuses outperform 51% of Korean/Japanese 3rd year students? Moreover, judging a society's education by its super-elite leads nowhere; they probably went to private schools, and they certainly won't become doctors. They are the world's next business and political elite.

 

In summary, I reject your cross-continental comparisons of high school quality because you offer no evidence or clear logic. Your conclusion that our high school system "is a joke" is a joke.

[mac_attack]

We've all been to high school and know it's a joke.

 

When I went to high school, in grade 10, a guy who had just moved to Canada from China joined our class. Although he had been learning some English in China he did not converse at the same level as us. However, he never failed English because he was a hard working kid and asked for help whenever needed. He got the award for top math average and top physics average in our graduating class. This kid was very bright! And it wasn't some weird genetic powers. He succeeded because he had a solid foundation from his elementary education in China, but more importantly because he worked very hard.

 

Depending on where you go, high school is not that hard at all, of a class of about 175 nearly 75% went on to some university program - remember that getting into some programs is not very hard at all. Of the 175 kids, I would say about 30-35 stand out from the rest, and will probably go on to successful professional careers. Of those 35, 75% were not born in Canada, or had parents who were not born in Canada.

 

The main problem is not necesserily that the schools are better in other countries, it is more that most kids here dont really care and don't try (sadly you see this even in University) and the teachers aren't really helping them. Lets remember who goes to teachers college - usually it's like the last resort plan for university students, "if I don't get into physio, med, dental, or grad school I can always go to teachers college".

 

Lastly, and this is from my experiences when I was an assistant to a special needs child in a grade 8 class, many parents are not critical enough of their children's poor work, which is why kids don't really try too hard to improve.

We might think we're being nice by saying "It's ok johnny, we'll do better next time", or "you can't always do as well as you wish but I'm still proud of you".

The Asian kids usually hear "well obviously you didn't study hard enough", etc etc. They are pressured and pushed to do their best. You can be nice and loving towards your child, but when it comes to education I really believe that you have to push them hard.

 

Most high schoolers never get any criticism, teachers put them in their little boxes (smart successful kid OR stupid punk) and they stay there until they graduate, instead of being pushed to improve. We've all gone to high school and we know this is true.

 

I don't need some journalist to tell me what I've experienced first hand, and what we know is true.

Instead of defending this poor system we should be rallying together to improve it.

 

Maltara, we'll just have to wait to see what you say when you have teenage children attending a public Canadian high school.

[bustylegs]

Lets remember who goes to teachers college - usually it's like the last resort plan for university students, "if I don't get into physio, med, dental, or grad school I can always go to teachers college".

 

Mac_attack:

 

Be careful what you type, teacher is a profession that many people have inspired to become since they were young.

 

Based on the posts you have written thus far, I would strongly suggest that you channel your bitter energy into something positive. If you happen to make it to the interview stage, the interviewers will see right through you. For example, if you were to say, " teachers are all people that can't hack it, and I think I'm smarter than them, that's why I want to go into medicine", you will never get into medicine regardless of how you sell the rest of your applicatoin.

[leviathan]

Mac_attack:

 

Be careful what you type, teacher is a profession that many people have inspired to become since they were young.

 

Based on the posts you have written thus far, I would strongly suggest that you channel your bitter energy into something positive. If you happen to make it to the interview stage, the interviewers will see right through you. For example, if you were to say, " teachers are all people that can't hack it, and I think I'm smarter than them, that's why I want to go into medicine", you will never get into medicine regardless of how you sell the rest of your applicatoin.

I was also pretty surprised by the lack of a grasp on reality with that post. While it's true that there are a large percentage of pre-professional students at university, there are just as many students who want to go into education or other varied fields. It's sad if you think that everyone who is in a field other than medicine is just a medical school drop-out.

[EVP]

We've all been to high school and know it's a joke.

The main problem is not necesserily that the schools are better in other countries, it is more that most kids here dont really care and don't try (sadly you see this even in University) and the teachers aren't really helping them.

 

Lastly, and this is from my experiences when I was an assistant to a special needs child in a grade 8 class, many parents are not critical enough of their children's poor work, which is why kids don't really try too hard to improve.

 

Most high schoolers never get any criticism, teachers put them in their little boxes (smart successful kid OR stupid punk) and they stay there until they graduate, instead of being pushed to improve. We've all gone to high school and we know this is true.

 

I had the same experiences while going to public school. Through elementary school, out of about 7 teachers, only 3 in my opinion cared enough to go out of their way to make sure we understood things and spend time working with us if we didn't. High school was not any better. Unfortunately, it was very noticeable when a teacher doesn't have his/her heart in teaching. The most awesome teachers I had were the ones who loved it enough to take the extra step to inspire us, give constructive criticism, in addition to getting through the curriculum. I am not sure how much public schools vary, but that was my experience.

[MDHopefully2005]

I think it's also kinda harsh saying parents don't encourage their children here. Sure some parents are jellyfish and let their kids do whatever they want with little tough love, but I think it's a bit of a stretch saying that everyone in Canada is like that.

[mac_attack]

Mac_attack:

 

Be careful what you type, teacher is a profession that many people have inspired to become since they were young.

 

Based on the posts you have written thus far, I would strongly suggest that you channel your bitter energy into something positive. If you happen to make it to the interview stage, the interviewers will see right through you. For example, if you were to say, " teachers are all people that can't hack it, and I think I'm smarter than them, that's why I want to go into medicine", you will never get into medicine regardless of how you sell the rest of your applicatoin.

 

Why would I talk about teachers at my interview??

[The Law]

I was also pretty surprised by the lack of a grasp on reality with that post. While it's true that there are a large percentage of pre-professional students at university, there are just as many students who want to go into education or other varied fields. It's sad if you think that everyone who is in a field other than medicine is just a medical school drop-out.

 

That's so true... geez mac_attack, you've got to try to learn more about the world around you. I don't understand why you keep whining about the medical school process when it clearly creates good doctors. Try to be more careful with what you say because some if it is really far-fetched and much too exagerated. Instead of all this *****ing and complaining, why don't you just work on improving your application and stop worrying so much?

[mac_attack]

That's so true... geez mac_attack, you've got to try to learn more about the world around you. I don't understand why you keep whining about the medical school process when it clearly creates good doctors. Try to be more careful with what you say because some if it is really far-fetched and much too exagerated. Instead of all this *****ing and complaining, why don't you just work on improving your application and stop worrying so much?

 

I disagree. There was nothing far-fetched in there. It is my opinion based on my life experiences and those of the people around me. I'm not really worrying as much as stating that there are some flaws in the system.

[paulchemguy]

Hey mac_attack,

 

While I don't agree with most of your posts, I think you sure asked a good question: "How come Canadian medical schools don't accept high school students?", especially when UK, Europe, Australia and most Asian countries do that and their healthcare system seems fine.

 

Lets consider that we do abolish the 4-year MD program and turn it into a 6-year straight-out-of-highschool medicine program. Now we'll have to evaluate a bunch of high school students first based on academics. Unfortunately I just don't think the current provincial exam system can really pick the best people in terms of academics....... Many people do very well in Gr12 + provincials, with many people in the 90s+ range. With limited space for medical school, do you think we should only pick people with the top most scores? So a student with 99% might make it in, while a 98% won't.... I don't think a 1% difference in highschool really say much...

 

Unless you change the highschool examination system in Canada, I don't think you can really implement a 6-year medicine program in Canada.

 

On the other hand, as you go from 1st year to 2nd year and so forth in university, you weed out a bunch of people..... Here, you can tell applicants apart in terms of their academics...

 

Of course, there're also a bunch of issues with evaluating a high-school applicant's apptitude for medicine, life experiences, etc.....

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

Well said, paulchemguy! My sentiment's exactly, except that I was too lazy to type them out and I doubt that I could have been as concise as your post.

[Satsuma]

I disagree. There was nothing far-fetched in there. It is my opinion based on my life experiences and those of the people around me. I'm not really worrying as much as stating that there are some flaws in the system.

 

Your opinion based on your life experiences cannot be generalized to the entire country....and thus your claims are "far-fetched".

[sickgirl]

I have many family members and friends who have gone through med school straight out of high school (in Europe) and when I discuss the Canadian vs. "other" med systems issue with them, they all have the same response: they wish they had been able to complete an undergrad degree in whatever, and then go into a 3 or 4 year med programme. They love being doctors and they're glad they chose the path they did, but if they had had the option, they would have appreciated and enjoyed a different background. 6 years of nothing but med school, starting at age 18, is a one-way street for a lot of people.

 

Here is an Irish Times article that ran this summer, recommending reforms to the med school system:

 

Medical students should be at least 23 years of age, expert recommends

Dr Muiris Houston, Medical Correspondent

 

Candidates for a career in medicine should be a minimum 23 years of age and have at least one year's work experience, an expert in medical education has said.

 

Dr Christopher Cowley of the School of Medicine, Health Policy and Practice at the University of East Anglia said older, more arts-oriented and better rounded applicants would make better medical students and happier doctors.

 

Writing in the current issue of the Journal of Medical Ethics, Dr Cowley said he would like medical students to be at least 23 years old before they start studying medicine. But contrary to plans for graduate-entry courses in the Republic, he does not want applicants to have completed a first degree.

 

Earlier this year, the Government approved the expansion of medical education in the State, to include for the first time a new graduate-entry programme to medicine. Some 240 of the additional 420 training places are to be made available to graduates of honours bachelor degree programmes in any discipline. An expert group is currently developing an aptitude test as part of the selection process for the four- year graduate-entry courses.

 

Dr Cowley said his main reason for not having a degree requirement for the older applicant was not to disadvantage those from less affluent backgrounds: "This is why I would have a raised minimum age, but without the degree requirement, so that a person can work full- time for a few years between secondary and tertiary study."

 

As part of their work experience, he proposed that aspirant medical students spend one year working in a healthcare or voluntary sector organisation so they acquire a grounding in the type of environment and ethos in which they would work as doctors. "It would be an important lesson in working as part of a team, in discovering the less glamorous side of medicine and even in acquiring some humility," he said.

 

In a separate proposal, Dr Cowley said extra points should be awarded for an A level in English literature on the basis that it improved imagination and empathy and the ability to discuss complex ethical issues: "In addition, the study of English literature improves the communication skills of pupils by encouraging them to be more precise in their choice of words, more sensitive to the resonances of words and intonation, and more sensitive to the situation and relationship in which the communicators find themselves."

 

Commenting on Dr Cowley's proposals, Prof Tom O'Dowd, professor of primary care and public health at Trinity College Dublin, said he agreed with the argument for competency in arts. "Going into medicine with a good grounding in English literature or a foreign language would produce a more rounded doctor. But hand in hand with arts you have to have a good grounding in science." However, Prof O'Dowd is in favour of graduate-entry noting that "one of the best ways of becoming an independent thinker is via the university system".

[tmacgirl]

Every since I was younger I wanted to be either a scientist or a doctor. Now over the years my interest in the career has wavered as I learnt about other career opportunities. Even now I don’t feel that I am at the level needed to make a wise career decision. I don’t think any 18 year old should be forced to decide something like that out of high school. High school years should not be spent cramming for the MCATs and competing for places in medical school. It’s a time to discover ones true self.

Now if you entered medical school at 17/18 do you honestly think you will be mature enough? Also do you want to miss out on all the experiences that you have gained in undergrad?

Another thing is University is a good measurement of work ethics. Also many people who do well in high school do poorly in University or the opposite.

Medicals School require undergrad to weed out the people who are not serious about medicine…and trust me there are many people.

[paulchemguy]

A friend of mine suggested that UK(or European in general) high-school students are more disciplined and mature than North American counterparts, and so their high school grads are better suited for medicine and dentistry.

 

But beside the fact that most schools in UK require uniforms, have examinations at a higher level, and students there have sexy British accent, I dont know anymore about their school system. Anyone want to comment?

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

I doubt that there are as many shootings and hostage-takings at schools in the UK as there seem to be in North America!

[HorizonXP]

Hey everyone! I just found this forum after I submitted my app yesterday and decided to post in this thread. I firmly disagree with the statement that doing a Bachelor's is a 'waste' of time, and we should go straight into med from HS.

 

Take myself for example. Out of HS, I applied to universities for science and engineering programs because I was still unsure of which direction I would like to take. I've always LOVED medicine, and I love helping people heal, so becoming a physician seemed like a good choice. However, I had discovered through high school that I had great abilities as an engineer. So I went to UW for electrical engineering.

 

Fast forward to now, I've taken a few biology courses through my EE degree. I continued to volunteer at a number of places, which maintaining my involvement in a number of extracurriculars. Medicine still really appealed to me, even though I loved EE. My passions lie in both fields. But why limit myself to one or the other? So I'm applying to med school with the intent of becoming an MD, and in turn, combine my EE expertise with my newly gained medical knowledge. With the life experiences, and work ethic instilled in me from my EE program, I know I have what it takes to be an incredible doctor. Not only will I have the "book smarts" needed to know how to diagnose my patients, I will also have the compassion and empathy required to put my patients at ease.

 

Do I consider my undergrad a waste? Goodness no! I wouldn't trade it for the world! Sure, I'm a little older going into med school, but I feel it was time well spent. It allowed me to explore a number of options before I confirmed that medicine was where I want to be.

 

So mac_attack, really, stop being bitter. You may not agree with the system of allowing people to apply to med school without any prereqs, but the truth is, it's a system that works to train much better, and more compassionate doctors. I actually believe that people shouldn't be choosing sciences with the intent of going on to medicine. You need to be realistic in realizing that there is a possibility of you not getting in. So get a Bachelor's in something that you feel passionate about. If that's still science, cool. If not, explore it! You'll never, ever has this opportunity in your life again. Enjoy your youth!

[nowai]

Is someone bitter?

Perhaps the bachelor's requirement is to weed out those 3.59s who ***** and whine all day.

[ploughboy]

...So I went to UW for electrical engineering...So I'm applying to med school with the intent of becoming an MD, and in turn, combine my EE expertise with my newly gained medical knowledge. With the life experiences, and work ethic instilled in me from my EE program, I know I have what it takes to be an incredible doctor. Not only will I have the "book smarts" needed to know how to diagnose my patients, I will also have the compassion and empathy required to put my patients at ease.

 

Slightly off-topic:

 

Cool. You can't spell geek without EE! I was back to UW on the weekend, had a beer at POETS, got my picture taken with the Tool. Good times.

 

Ahem...and check out the latest edition of WEAL...