Kiel Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Recently, the salary cap for all physicians has been eliminated. This event has been made so hopefully the total number of doctors in Canada will increase. What is you opinion on this? Many specialists will now be making close to $700,000 in total. Do you believe doctors deserve this large amount of money. I know what my opinion is, but what is yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 Well, most specialists will NOT be making $700,000. Maybe gross billings can approach that amount for a few specialties like opthal, ENT, ortho, cardio, GI, radiology. Then you have to deduct your overhead cost. With fee for service, eleminating the cap just gives MDs freedom to work more if they choose to. Making 700K just means you'll be seeing a heck of a lot more patients. I'll diverge a bit here and say many lay people grossly overestimate what physicians make. Cost of tuition, opportunity costs, years of working for min wage in residency/fellowship, number of hours worked, and lack of benefits are often overlooked. It's difficult to say what's "deserved", most of us can't work in the private sector where the consumers can dictate our fees. Personally, minimal of 10K take home pay a month is what I feel MDs working full time should earn, anything above that is gravy. Having said that, lawyers, business executives at the top of their profession easily make more than 700K. Is it all that outrageous for MDs at the top of their profession to make that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Posted October 7, 2006 Report Share Posted October 7, 2006 I agree with Jazz. It's a pretty small minority of physicians that were reaching the billing cap. If removing the cap means that they will see more patients, then I think it's a good thing. Also the intent of eliminating the cap was not to increase the total number of physicians. The way to do that is to increase the number of undergrad and postgrad training positions. I think the intent was to make the affected physicians happy and to increase the number of patients they see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiel Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 They still will be able to make more then they originally did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Yea, most of the physicians I've heard making numbers like that work like dogs. They drive their Ferrari to the hospital and then back home only to get back to work a couple hours later. I personally think this removal of the salary cap may be in anticipation of a possible future decision in the acceptance of private healthcare. Think about it, at this point there was a salary cap for a reason, right. By removing it, the ball is in the doctors court to control their business and their work schedule a lot more. You compare this to the United States where they have medical groups - they have this type of control over their salary, work hours, etc. Just something to think about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirsteen Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Yea, most of the physicians I've heard making numbers like that work like dogs. They drive their Ferrari to the hospital and then back home only to get back to work a couple hours later. Hey there, I've worked with many doctors who make numbers such as these who don't actually work like dogs (as described above). However, I've seen that this is very billing-code- as opposed to work-time-dependent. For example, I worked with one general surgeon who managed to take a course in Sweden in ERCP and who now spends at least 1.5 working days performing those in addition to his 1-2 OR days. He still has a good life with good hours, takes a very nice sum home, and drives a high-end, navy Porsche. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMD Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Well, most specialists will NOT be making $700,000. Maybe gross billings can approach that amount for a few specialties like opthal, ENT, ortho, cardio, GI, radiology. Then you have to deduct your overhead cost. With fee for service, eleminating the cap just gives MDs freedom to work more if they choose to. Making 700K just means you'll be seeing a heck of a lot more patients. I'll diverge a bit here and say many lay people grossly overestimate what physicians make. Cost of tuition, opportunity costs, years of working for min wage in residency/fellowship, number of hours worked, and lack of benefits are often overlooked. It's difficult to say what's "deserved", most of us can't work in the private sector where the consumers can dictate our fees. Personally, minimal of 10K take home pay a month is what I feel MDs working full time should earn, anything above that is gravy. Having said that, lawyers, business executives at the top of their profession easily make more than 700K. Is it all that outrageous for MDs at the top of their profession to make that much? Doctors make very good money and I think one has to be careful-- not to complain too loudly... especially if the company isn't lawyers... business execs and other well-compensated people. A while back, I worked through the public Ontario salary disclosure list (for hospitals) with a spreadsheet and automagically grabbed everything with "VP" and "CEO" in it. The average (public) CEO makes $235,600. The median, lower quartile & upper quartile are $191,200, $147,500 and $306,300 respectively. The average (Ontario hospital) VP makes $172,800 and the median, lower quartile & upper quartile are $153,900, $125,700, and $197,900 respectively. Even if one assumes that the compensation is 2X as high in the private sector... or that hospital CEOs are underpaid-- your average CEO probably isn't making $700K. If you disagree... please enlighten me with the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirsteen Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Hi there, There should be some stats around re: CEO salaries within the private sector. There are often lists with that sort of information published in Canadian Business, etc. I know, at the company I used to work for, the CEO and VP both drew $1M + perks each year, i.e., the keys to the latest BMW M5, membership at a ClubLink platinum course and many other expenses paid. Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Hi there, There should be some stats around re: CEO salaries within the private sector. There are often lists with that sort of information published in Canadian Business, etc. I know, at the company I used to work for, the CEO and VP both drew $1M + perks each year, i.e., the keys to the latest BMW M5, membership at a ClubLink platinum course and many other expenses paid. Cheers, Kirsteen Where did you work? Maybe I need to get on that bandwagon? J/K...however, that BMW M5 does sound very nice. Did you know there was a 2-year waiting list for that car BEFORE it came out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Ah, the legendary M5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirsteen Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Where did you work? Maybe I need to get on that bandwagon? J/K...however, that BMW M5 does sound very nice. Did you know there was a 2-year waiting list for that car BEFORE it came out? Hi, This company was a high tech firm specializing in chip manufacturing and distribution, that was inaugurated about 15 years ago as a two-man start-up. Interestingly, the two of them took massive lines of credit to get the company going and had little to no income for 2.5 years before they made it. As for the M5, yes, he was on the waitlist and received the car quite promptly, custom paint and all. He's now onto his third. (As an aside, one time I had to follow him to the Toronto airport to pick up a bunch of businessmen visiting from Korea. I was driving a fairly powerful, new Jaguar at the time (borrowed from the CEO for airport retrieval purposes) and lost the VP on the 407. He floored it and I couldn't keep up, most probably for fear of dying.) Cheers, Kirsteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Hi, This company was a high tech firm specializing in chip manufacturing and distribution, that was inaugurated about 15 years ago as a two-man start-up. Interestingly, the two of them took massive lines of credit to get the company going and had little to no income for 2.5 years before they made it. As for the M5, yes, he was on the waitlist and received the car quite promptly, custom paint and all. He's now onto his third. (As an aside, one time I had to follow him to the Toronto airport to pick up a bunch of businessmen visiting from Korea. I was driving a fairly powerful, new Jaguar at the time (borrowed from the CEO for airport retrieval purposes) and lost the VP on the 407. He floored it and I couldn't keep up, most probably for fear of dying.) Cheers, Kirsteen LOL........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickdraw_mcgraw Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 Well, Who cares? It's about supply and demand. Before, when there was a cap, docs would stop working once they reached their cap. The result...waiting lists. Increased doctors incomes mean more patient are being cared for. Is not that what matters? Besides, CIHI just put out a report that since the cao was lifted only about 1000 docs earned over the 465 000 cap from previous. There are 20 000 docs in Ontario. You have to work pretty damn hard to earn that much money. Better to enjoy your life and cherish your career. Seeing too many patients increases the risk of an adverse event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiel Posted October 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 As a doctor, would you work for free? Well, Who cares? It's about supply and demand. Before, when there was a cap, docs would stop working once they reached their cap. The result...waiting lists. Increased doctors incomes mean more patient are being cared for. Is not that what matters? Besides, CIHI just put out a report that since the cao was lifted only about 1000 docs earned over the 465 000 cap from previous. There are 20 000 docs in Ontario. You have to work pretty damn hard to earn that much money. Better to enjoy your life and cherish your career. Seeing too many patients increases the risk of an adverse event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfette Posted October 15, 2006 Report Share Posted October 15, 2006 As a doctor, would you work for free? That's an interesting question. There's a fine line between balancing your responsibility to society and your responsibility to yourself. If someone had an emergency situation where I and only I could help them, I would probably do so regardless of monetary compensation. However, there's always more work to be done and you could kill yourself doing it (whether for money or not), but that's not good for either you or your patients in the long-run. It's good to be a nice, caring person, but you can't be a doormat and try to please everyone either. It's a principle that holds true in lots of different aspects of life - for example, if I have an exam tomorrow, I would let down a friend who wanted me to go shopping with her, but I wouldn't let down a friend who was very sick or on the verge of committing suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UoC-CCFP-07 Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 For many specialties, it's a moot point. You're not going to hit the cap no matter how hard you work!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMD Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 For many specialties, it's a moot point. You're not going to hit the cap no matter how hard you work!! True. That said, there are about 220 GPs that managed to top 600K... according to this article:Figures for top physician earners show 224 family doctors in Ontario earned an average of $627,000 last year... Looking at docs as a whole, there were about 1,450 that topped the cap this year-- according to this Canadian Press article. Since there are approx. 24,000 physicians in Ontario it isn't totally insignificant -- 1,450/24,000 = 6% of Ontario physicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UoC-CCFP-07 Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 It's highly likely the majority of those 224 family doctors who averaged over $600k were doing something other than traditional family practice - likely something procedural like therapeutic abortions, or flex sigs or maybe even colonoscopies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyMax Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Yeah, they were probably all passing gas on the side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UoC-CCFP-07 Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 Timmymax. . . I was wondering the same thing myself, whether any of the aforementioned doctors were GP-anaesthesia or GP-emerg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooty Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 As a doctor, would you work for free? .Hells no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toffeetree Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 As a doctor, would you work for free? i would, if i could make a decent living already, and had spare time (hence, not being a doormat, as someone suggested earlier this thread, but also helping out people in need - which is why i think people SHOULD be in medicine...or at least why i want to do medicine). but this is more an issue in the states, where there are millions of uninsured people, or where there is a significant financial difference between seeing someone who had private health insurance and another who was on medicare/medicaid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f.b.kal Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Work for free, or almost nothing? Not me. I think everybody agrees that doctors should not be in it for the money, but who can dispute the fact that in providing an invaluable service to society they deserve reasonable compensation. Reasonable is the operative word here. It is certainly reasonable that a doctor that trained for 10 gruelling years, and now works 100 life-in-your-hand hours per week, makes as much money as a deprived CEO. In many cases, dentistry might actually be a more lucrative profession than medicine, if you consider the relatively laidback lifestyle. With that being said, I would work for the amount that will allow me to unconditionally support my family. I personally do not need that M5...... Maybe a Concept Viper. J/K. Forgive my cheesiness, but using your talents to keep that CEO and his family healthy is as good as having the M5 in their garage... You can laugh at me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drcave Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Ok, So they lifted the salary cap but when can you become an unrestricted free agent cause everyone knows thats when you make your big $$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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