Careers and the money factor...

[Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

I got to thinking about this from another thread and thought it would be interesting, although incredibly difficult, to determine if a student were interested in a given career for the primary reason of great earning potential. Are there many students out there who have left a previous, extremely high-earning career before medicine, or who are independently wealthy, and who chose medicine anyway? (These are some of the folks who you might think are entering medicine for a reason other than money, or at least, a reason equal to the money.)

 

I'd argue that can be very difficult for most to say that money, above all, would make them happy and because of it's earning potential, medicine would, given that: 1) most of those folks might not have had the opportunity to know what it feels like to be economically rich, i.e., making well above average salaries per year; 2) many might also not know what has to be done in order to achieve such rates of pay, i.e., what the educational process is like and what the worst types of work days are like.

 

Anyway, just a Thanksgiving weekend meandering...

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[paperweight]

I am definitely not interested in medicine for the money.

 

I know that if I chose to pursue buiness, I would make much more money than I would as a physician. But I believe that my career as a physician would be much more meaningful to me, and I would feel extremely proud at the end of each day. I need to feel proud of the work that I do.

 

I could probably make millions in business, but I don't think I'd achieve that same feeling of elation that I would from healing a patient. No money is worth that feeling.

[Jazz]

You'll probably help a lot more patients if you make your millions in business and then donate it to researchers, or you can have a medical school named after you.

[Kuantum]

^^Exactly, medicine is more than the money or just helping those who need it. Choosing a career like medicine, for me, was the end of a couple years of bouncing between different interests I knew I liked. For me, it wasn't something that just came to me in a dream or figured it would be cool to be a doctor. It was about doing something I know I will love, regardless of what the hardships and crap I have to deal with. For me, I get to do a career where its personally fulfilling with a bunch of perks that cancel out most of the negatives. Realistically, there are a lot of careers where you get to help people, make lots, become intellectually stimulated, and gain whatever else...however, there is only one career for everyone that you are just passionate about.

 

It's like people who decide to study wheat. I am not saying its not important, but c'mon...its wheat! There is just something that gets them excited about studying it. It is the samething with medicine for me.

 

I know I am not a doctor yet and I can't TRULY know what it is like until I actually get there, but from the best information I have now...its what I want to do and I am willing to go through a lot to get there because I am pretty sure its what I want to do.

[scarface]

Hey Kirsteen, I grew up in poverty most of my life. I have never met my biological father. I had to work throughout high school to help my mom put food on the table. One of my friends was shot, and another was stabbed in a gang fight. In summary, I feel that if only I could make a lot of $$$ life would be much better. And I remember Charles Barkley saying that people had a better chance of become a medical doctor than making it to the NBA (yes, it's common sense, but I first heard it when I was young and impressionable).

 

I don't expect your sympathy or anyone else's on this forum. I've caused enough trouble already. I guess I'm a natural "trouble maker". I blame the crowd I hung out with growing up, and the friends I hang around with currently.

 

But you do raise some good points in regards to money leading to happiness.

Maybe $$$ won't guarantee happiness, but it will sure make my life easier. Or at least my mom's life (try supporting four children by yourself after your deadbeat husband leaves you)

[Satsuma]

Interesting points...and I will just add one.

I agree that the earning potential in other areas, such as business, exceeds that of most physicians.

However, when discussing $$$ in terms of only income, one factor is overlooked...stability.

It takes a certain kind of person to go out and make millions in business. In many cases it comes with years of risk taking, failure and not breaking even, before gaining that kind of success. And not everyone does.

With medicine, you have a very comfortable income, almost "guaranteed" and your profession is very portable. So there is the stability factor.

[Smurfette]

But you do raise some good points in regards to money leading to happiness.

Maybe $$$ won't guarantee happiness, but it will sure make my life easier. Or at least my mom's life (try supporting four children by yourself after your deadbeat husband leaves you)

 

My second cousins are multimillionaires (from business). They are also one of the most dysfunctional families I know. The parents are now nearing 70 - they are still slaves to making more money (the more money you have, the more potential you have to make yet more). The children are all in the 30's and 40's and none of them are happy - they all ended up marrying people who wanted them for their money. Their childhoods were not pleasant either - there was little family life since the parents were constantly out on business meetings and trips. Their father also had multiple extramarital affairs - hardly a loving and trusting home environment.

 

Money is like health. If you are sick, it is hard to be happy. If you are very poor, it is hard to be happy. We can fantasize about the "happy poor", but the truth is it is very difficult to be happy when you barely have enough to survive. But being rich or being able-bodies, in itself, does constitute happiness.

 

To scarface:

Money does not make you unhappy. Financial security does prevent a lot of problems and it by no means prevents happiness. "Money may not buy happiness but it sure makes misery easier to deal with." But you're young and perhaps you want something more than the ability to "deal with" misery. Perhaps you want true happiness... Go ahead and chase those dollar signs, but if you choose to make money your slave and not your master, you may find that it will serve you better.

 

By the way, I don't think you're an "ogre" or a "troublemaker" per say. I do think that perhaps your experiences in life have left you playing defense - you're trying to protect yourself from all that is cruel out there. You've learned to expect very little from the world and as a consequence you've received very little. You may find that if you're willing to open up to it, life is kinder than you think.

[The_B]

For the whole subject of money and medicine. I have two points to make:

1) If you go into medicine for money, you are toast. Simply put, for the time it takes, and the hours you typically work, there are so many better careers out there. You would very quickly hate your job if this is why you go into medicine. To be in medicine, and not burn out, you need to genuinely love medicine. Thankfully most people who go into medicine do. And yes, it's great helping people while you are at it, but from a personal standpoint, I have met few doctors that seem to have this as their primary factor.

 

2) If anyone tells you that the money doesn't matter...call them a liar seriously, it does. Ask any practicing full time physician, and they will tell you that despite how much they love their job and how much being a doctor is an amazing line of work, it is still just that...work. All of the older doctors I have asked have warned me to not be that "in love with medicine" in that over time, I should be realistic with myself and remember that I will want to retire, and have nice vacations, and so on. So although I do love medicine, if the pay were much lower, I would seriously evaluate if it's what I want to do. This of course isn't true for everyone, but I personally want to have a family and a house and have a comfortable lifestyle, so once again, although not the primary reason for going into medicine, I do think the fact that it guarantees at least a middle-class lifestyle is appealing.

[daryn]

I want to go into medicine because, amongst a multitude of other things, I feel that it is the most compatible with my personality. Business, in my mind, is the polar opposite of what I want to do. Research is too exclusive. Medicine is academically and intellectually challenging. Constantly problems arise. And it makes me appreciate life.

 

etc. etc.

 

I'll be honest. I'm not going to choose a career that's going to pay pennies especially when I'm faced with debt. To me, I want a paycheque that my family and I can live comfortably off of. That's it. Anything else is just extra and is pretty much meaningless.

 

But then again, there are so many jobs out there (I hope?) that can provide that. So the money issue really isn't a factor at all.

[paperweight]

You'll probably help a lot more patients if you make your millions in business and then donate it to researchers, or you can have a medical school named after you.

 

That would be wonderful, except that I wouldn't enjoy the journey.

 

I would never choose to pursue a career I hate just because I would be good at it - even if that meant I could donate millions to charity.

[Kirsteen]

I know that if I chose to pursue buiness, I would make much more money than I would as a physician.

 

Hey there,

 

Interesting comments above. Regarding business however, the above is a common comment, but it's not so easy to make as much money as a businessperson as the average doctor. There used to be the statistic that one in ten start-ups would actually get to the point of being profitable, nevermind make millionaires out of their owner-operators.

 

Gotta go catch a flight...

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[paperweight]

Hey there,

 

Interesting comments above. Regarding business however, the above is a common comment, but it's not so easy to make as much money as a businessperson as the average doctor. There used to be the statistic that one in ten start-ups would actually get to the point of being profitable, nevermind make millionaires out of their owner-operators.

 

Gotta go catch a flight...

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

 

I completely agree with you that making more money than a physician as a business person is not standard.

 

However, I believe that with my abilities, skillset and talents that I would. I am a very analytical, strategic and high level thinker, with excellent intuition and business sense. I have no doubt I would succeed immensely in the business world, and am considering pursuing business as a hobby somewhere in the future (with the idea of donating profits to charity), but it's not something I would want solely as my career.

[Kirsteen]

Hi again,

 

Business and medicine (when not united) are two very different models for making money. It would be interesting to do a comparison of commerce and MD program grads to see what their starting salaries are (for the med students, post-residency) and then their salaries 5 and 10 years hence. I would hypothesize that the MD cohort would be making more, per capita, at each of those timepoints than the business cohort.

 

To be successful (monetarily) in business requires a lot of things: skill, talent, connections, flair, a good dose of luck and much more. To achieve the same in medicine requires a lot less, on the whole.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[scarface]

One question somewhat related to the topic of this thread for those who are in med schools: I am sure quite a few of your colleagues are writing an exam I've heard of called the USMLE (to practice in the US). My question is why are they doing this??? The prestige/status of a doctor is the same in both countries (I believe). I'm sure there is not a lack of jobs for physicians in Canada (though I could be wrong). Perhaps these people are US citizens who decided to study at a Canadian med school? (a remote possibility, but a possiblity nonetheless).

 

I think it's because of the $$$ that these graduating doctors flee south. The fact that this "brain drain" phenomenon of MDs is common in Canada must mean that many premeds are motivated by the almighty dollar. I'm sure these people who flee south also enjoy helping others and wouldn't compromise their ethics to make more $$$ (I'm thinking about Lady's C-section comments in a different thread), but ultimately money was their main motivation for becoming a physician.

 

Although I proclaim myself an "ogre" or as one poster put it "the giant from jack in the beanstalk" on these forums, ask yourself the question, is my attitude/motivations really that deviant in this profession? Don't worry, as I've switched career paths (once again), and am in the process of weaning myself from these forums. I just wanted to post some "final words".

[Kirsteen]

One question somewhat related to the topic of this thread for those who are in med schools: I am sure quite a few of your colleagues are writing an exam I've heard of called the USMLE (to practice in the US). My question is why are they doing this???...

 

...I think it's because of the $$$ that these graduating doctors flee south.

 

The folks in my class who wrote the USMLE and who are applying to the US this year are doing so because they are applying to competitive fields. In short, they'd like to ensure that they match next spring and by writing the USMLEs and applying to the US, they increase their chances of attaining that goal.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Jochi1543]

Well, I went to the food bank today, and yet if I only said "ok, fine" to my father, I'd be back in Russia working for him and making loads of money - sure no less than I would ever get a chance to make here as an FP. I guess I'm postmodern in that if I had to choose a job that pays the bills and that I enjoy vs a job that I don't care for but that lets me live in complete luxury, I'd go for the more enjoyable but less lucrative position. A month or so ago my father actually tried to persuade me to go back to Russia by promising that if I do, he'd buy me a Mercedes and a downtown apartment (he's REALLY against me being in Canada and going to med), but I refused. So I guess it's pretty clear that money is not the main factor in my decision, lol.

[Jochi1543]

Also, you don't just rake in more money in the US, you also have to pay out-of-control malpractice insurance. I believe an ob-gyn fresh out of his or her residency has to pay $250,000 a year, while in Canada it's about 10x less than that (I remember reading some links on this forum a while ago where the ob-gyn malpractice figures were in the 20,000s).

[ssc427]

Here’s the thing – in med you are GUARANTEED to make 100K + / year. Specialise and it’s 200K+. In business nothing is guaranteed. You can make all the claims you want about how clever you are and could make that kind of money in business, but are only doing med because you want to help people. It makes me feel a little ill every time I hear this. Everyone I’ve had this discussion with in my med class at UBC says they’re not in it for the money. Bull $hit!!!

 

I freely admit that I turned my back on pure academia because the salaries suck and the hours are too long. I want to hang out with my wife and kids living a nice lifestyle while working 8-5 doing something moderately interesting. Tons of specialties will allow me to do this and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the fact that the money had a part to play in my reasons for heading to meds. If physician salaries were to drop to what most people in the ‘real’ middle class world make (~60K/year) med applications would plummet proving that I’m not alone. I’m just the only person who admits it.

[paperweight]

Here’s the thing – in med you are GUARANTEED to make 100K + / year. Specialise and it’s 200K+. In business nothing is guaranteed. You can make all the claims you want about how clever you are and could make that kind of money in business, but are only doing med because you want to help people. It makes me feel a little ill every time I hear this. Everyone I’ve had this discussion with in my med class at UBC says they’re not in it for the money. Bull $hit!!!

 

I freely admit that I turned my back on pure academia because the salaries suck and the hours are too long. I want to hang out with my wife and kids living a nice lifestyle while working 8-5 doing something moderately interesting. Tons of specialties will allow me to do this and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the fact that the money had a part to play in my reasons for heading to meds. If physician salaries were to drop to what most people in the ‘real’ middle class world make (~60K/year) med applications would plummet proving that I’m not alone. I’m just the only person who admits it.

 

I agree with your suggestion that if physician salaries plummeted, then I definitely would not consider medicine. Why would I put in 100 hour weeks as a neurosurgeon when I was only being paid 60k a year?

 

Then again, that would never happen.

 

Of course money plays a role in anyone being a physician. There's no real argument in that. My primary argument is that I believe I would make a ton more money in business. You don't have to believe me, I don't really care. You don't have to believe that I want to pursue medicine because I love it. But hey, whatever, I don't have to believe you genuinely care for helping others either. It's our opinions, after all.

[Jochi1543]

 

Then again, that would never happen.

You never know. In Russia, doctors get paid peanuts, and back in the days, they made a solid amount of money. Who knows what may happen in the future?