Accreditations this year?

[Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

I know that the Royal College has been doing a bit of a medical school tour this year and at least two schools that I know of have underwent review. Does anyone know if this information is published anywhere? Failing that, does anyone know about any recent Royal College reviews and the results? Given that it's CaRMS season, it would be interesting to know which programs have been reviewed recently and how they fared.

 

In terms of the two schools that I know underwent review, they are McGill (March/April '06) and Western (October '06). I don't know much about how the UWO programs did, but at McGill, there were a number of programs that were placed on probation, e.g., Cardiac Surgery, Neurosurgery, Radiology, and one which was placed on "intent to withdraw" (ENT).

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

I am pleased to announce that the Anaesthesia program at UWO passed with flying colours, not to suggest, by any means, that there was ever any doubt, because there wasn't, not even for a nanosecond!

Here's hoping that the rest of the programs at our fair institution fare as well!

[xraydoc]

Hey All...

 

UWO Radiology, Nuclear Medicine, and Neurosurgery were all given FULL Approval.

 

Internal Medicine is on probation. I am not sure about the rest.

[Satsuma]

I think sometimes it is posted on the Carms website.

For instance U of Ottawa neurosurgery program says this:

 

"This program was recently reviewed by the Royal College. The survey team recommended Provisional Approval with a review within 2 years."

 

I don`t know if that is something that is required? (to post a less than perfect review?)

 

I know the neurology program has gone through review this summer, though I don`t know what the official outcome was, there is nothing posted on Carms.

[Rome]

I am not too familiar with this whole review process, so I am curious to know what sorts of things would give a program a 'probation' status.

 

X-raydoc, any word on the IM program at UWO?

 

 

Hey All...

 

UWO Radiology, Nuclear Medicine, and Neurosurgery were all given FULL Approval.

 

Internal Medicine is on probation. I am not sure about the rest.

[xraydoc]

as i mentioned, i am not too sure about the specifics of why UWO IM was put on probation... this is what a few of their PGY2s were telling me much to their dismay. when asked about why, they were unsure only that they have to have another external review in 2 years.

[Kirsteen]

I am not too familiar with this whole review process, so I am curious to know what sorts of things would give a program a 'probation' status.

 

Hi there,

 

Generally, the Royal College conducts these accreditation reviews every 5 years or so, and sometimes more often if a given program receives a "probation" status or less, depending on the stipulations that result from the negative review. The College recruits a large team (with many doctors from other schools) that sweeps into town and reviews the function of each of the Royal College-accredited programs within the school. This includes a review of programs' processes and administration and also includes interviews with many or all residents within the program to elicit their opinions on the Program Director and program, in general. It's often a fairly stressful process for each program when it happens.

 

There are a number of evaluation statuses that can be received, "on probation" and "intent to withdraw" being two of them that are on the extreme ends of the evaluation status range. The former can mean that something is not quite right with a program's processes, e.g., evaluations are not carrier out enough, the administration's a bit wonky and needs bulking up, etc. "Intent to withdraw" is much more serious and generally means that the program will be discontinued unless some extreme changes are made, e.g., that the Program Director resigns. In the case of a recent program which received this evaluation, it was supposedly due, in part, to regular threats recevied by the residents from the program administration. The program was set to be dismembered if the PD did not resign, which means that each resident would be reassigned and dispersed to different, College-accredited programs across the country. (Not nice once you've established a life in that city and province.)

 

One of the reasons, aside from the above, why residents are not too happy when their program receives anything but a pass mark in the College accreditations is that the program loses status. This can make things a little more difficult when applying for fellowships in the US where some programs will have a look at the quality of the program from which you're graduating. If the program has been on probation then the perceived quality can be less.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Kirsteen]

UWO Radiology, Nuclear Medicine, and Neurosurgery were all given FULL Approval.

 

Hey there xraydoc,

 

Are you at UWO? If so, what year? Any comments on the Radiology program at UWO, aside from their successful passing of the College review?

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

One of the reasons, aside from the above, why residents are not too happy when their program receives anything but a pass mark in the College accreditations is that the program loses status.

When I was making the rounds of the CaRMS tour last year, there was one anaesthesia program that had been placed on probation for the upcoming year, and the program director actually put quite a positive spin on it in his 0700 address to the candidates on interview day. He said that probation wasn't necessarily a bad thing (whereas "intent to withdraw" is) as all it really means is that the review board has identified a set of perceived deficiencies within the program that need adjusting and in doing so has highlighted to the program what needs to be done to bring it back into alignment with the other programs in the nation. Thus, it is more like an interim report card, and gives the program room to grow so as to improve itself overall for the coming years.

Seeing as how I wasn't all that impressed with the program to begin with and how I had been treated by them up to and including that point, this program came in about second last on my final rank-order list and I wasn't all that interested in matching there. The questions for the PD that day from the candidates had mostly to do with why the program was on probation (none of which were answered directly by the PD, btw, which also wasn't impressive to me), so it is easy to see how being on probation can definitely affect the reputation of the program in question.

As for the implications for residents graduating from programs that were on probation or their program's status affecting their chances of matching to competitive subspecialties or fellowships, I can't really comment, but I'd go out on a limb to say that this stuff is likely much more relevant in the U.S. than it is in Canada. Oh wait, Kirsteen already pointed this out. Oh well.

[Kirsteen]

When I was making the rounds of the CaRMS tour last year, there was one anaesthesia program that had been placed on probation for the upcoming year, and the program director actually put quite a positive spin on it in his 0700 address to the candidates on interview day. He said that probation wasn't necessarily a bad thing...

 

...not that the Program Director could have been biased.

 

(whereas "intent to withdraw" is) as all it really means is that the review board has identified a set of perceived deficiencies within the program that need adjusting and in doing so has highlighted to the program what needs to be done to bring it back into alignment with the other programs in the nation. As for the implications for residents graduating from programs that were on probation or their program's status affecting their chances of matching to competitive subspecialties or fellowships, I can't really comment, but I'd go out on a limb to say that this stuff is likely much more relevant in the U.S. than it is in Canada. Oh wait, Kirsteen already pointed this out. Oh well.

 

Programs, Program Directors and their residents are never happy when the program receives anything but a positive Royal College review. By being placed on probation, word gets around, and often, fewer folks will apply to that program. Also, programs are placed on probation for a variety of reasons, some of which can directly affect the residents, thus making the program less desirable from a medical school applicant's point of view. When I was at McGill on elective and on service with two off-service Radiology residents, both were very upset about their program being placed on probation. Both felt that this would reflect upon them when it came time to apply for fellowships both here, and in the US.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

Come to think of it, I am very happy that my program passed with flying colours! I'd probably be kinda upset if the program was put on probation, but not really.

[EMD]

...not that the Program Director could have been biased.

 

 

 

Programs, Program Directors and their residents are never happy when the program receives anything but a positive Royal College review. By being placed on probation, word gets around, and often, fewer folks will apply to that program. Also, programs are placed on probation for a variety of reasons, some of which can directly affect the residents, thus making the program less desirable from a medical school applicant's point of view. When I was at McGill on elective and on service with two off-service Radiology residents, both were very upset about their program being placed on probation. Both felt that this would reflect upon them when it came time to apply for fellowships both here, and in the US.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

Stupid question: Is this info posted on the web somewhere or just a collection of wisdom from various people? If it is posted-- can someone provide a link? Thanks.

[Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Here is the link to Queen's IM site that provides info re: their recent "intent to withdraw" status:

 

http://deptmed.queensu.ca/residency/royal_college_accreditation_status

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Here is some info I found re: accreditation status of U. Sask programs:

 

http://announcements.usask.ca/news/archive/2000/01/college_of_medi.html

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[EMD]

Hi there,

 

Here is the link to Queen's IM site that provides info re: their recent "intent to withdraw" status:

 

http://deptmed.queensu.ca/residency/royal_college_accreditation_status

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

I was wondering whether there was a list of all program and their status. This page links to which places are accredited, but it doesn't give more information than that, i.e., as far as I can tell, it doesn't say whether they are "in good standing", "on probation" or are facing an "intent to withdraw". Am I missing something... or is the information not made public?

[Kirsteen]

I was wondering whether there was a list of all program and their status. This page links to which places are accredited, but it doesn't give more information than that, i.e., as far as I can tell, it doesn't say whether they are "in good standing", "on probation" or are facing an "intent to withdraw". Am I missing something... or is the information not made public?

 

Hi there,

 

I understood what you were looking for (and I was requesting the same information way above here) and in the process of searching for it myself, came across the links above. Thus far, with respect to finding a page that lists all of the current accreditation information, I've come up empty-handed.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[EMD]

Hi there,

 

I understood what you were looking for (and I was requesting the same information way above here) and in the process of searching for it myself, came across the links above. Thus far, with respect to finding a page that lists all of the current accreditation information, I've come up empty-handed.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

If the information isn't made public (i.e. its up to the program whether it wants to let the rumours swirl OR address things head on), perhaps the CFMS can ask that it be released to the public. The accreditation history of individual physicians is made public. So, why shouldn't the history of the training programs be public also? I think that if everyone knew the accrediation status and specifically med students--it would be a strong impetus for change for residency programs that are weak.

[xraydoc]

so you've decided to go for radiology Kirsteen... if so, good for you... best specialty in the world with perhaps the finest lifestyle out there.

 

indeed i am in radiology at UWO. i am relatively new to the program however thus far no issues. the PD is fantastic and the staff are all very agreeable when it comes to teaching. as is the case in all radiology programs, learning is very much the resident's responsibility. the more you read, the better you fair. i toured around teh bigger programs as everybody does and coming from a large medical school did not know what to expect when i came to london. however, i was really impressed with the size, resources and relative collegiality of the residents in London that I ranked it #1 at the end of the day... lucky for me I got my first choice.

 

in canada, we're lucky that there is relative parity among rads programs that whatever and whereever the match puts you, you will be OK... except if you are matched to programs that have been already mentioned in teh review thread.

 

any further questions, just ask.

 

good luck.

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

I also scoured the RCPSC website in search of accreditation status of individual residency programs and came up empty-handed. I don't think that this information is posted anywhere, although the next best bet would be the CFMS site. Seeing as how every program is accredited every 5 years (or less for those on probation and/or intent to withdraw), it would seem that the publication of those results is at the discretion of the individual programs themselves, since the RCPSC doesn't seem to be talking...

I'll keep my eyes and ears open for the results of the UWO accreditation, since I too am very interested in how our individual programs fared.

[Kirsteen]

I also scoured the RCPSC website in search of accreditation status of individual residency programs and came up empty-handed. I don't think that this information is posted anywhere, although the next best bet would be the CFMS site.

 

Hi there,

 

I contacted the Royal College Educational Standards Unit today and was told that a document listing the current accreditation status of all Canadian residency programs does exist; however, it is not available to members of the general public, including medical students.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[crackers]

The results of the accreditation are not official until the meeting with the dean, likely in January.

[TimmyMax]

Hey,

 

I contacted the Royal College Educational Standards Unit today and was told that a document listing the current accreditation status of all Canadian residency programs does exist; however, it is not available to members of the general public, including medical students.

Interesting. I guess there is a potential slippery slope involved with such sensitive information making its way into the general public, but I still think that this information should be made available to the medical students applying to the individual residency programs. I know that if I ended up matching to a program that ended up discredited, I'd be pretty upset if I didn't know that the program was on "intent to withdraw" status beforehand.

[Kirsteen]

Interesting. I guess there is a potential slippery slope involved with such sensitive information making its way into the general public, but I still think that this information should be made available to the medical students applying to the individual residency programs. I know that if I ended up matching to a program that ended up discredited, I'd be pretty upset if I didn't know that the program was on "intent to withdraw" status beforehand.

 

I agree. Reality is a good thing to deal with.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen