Am I Crazy?

[Guest 2Late2Learn]

Hello. I have been reading these forums for some time now - and have obtained a wealth of inspiration and information. Thank you!

 

I am hoping that there are some knowledgeable folks out there willing to give some sound advice with regard to my personal situation. It seems I have this really strong desire to apply to med school - even though the odds may be very well against me. Any tidbits of information would be appreciated.

 

I guess it all boils down to.... should I even bother aiming for application? Could I (however remotely) even stand a chance? Here's the story.

 

I'm 36 y/o

I was a high school drop out

I've gone to college twice - most recently graduating from a three yr nursing diploma program (with a 3.8 gpa)

I currently work full time in a busy ER

I am working working on a 'completion degree' from university to obtain my BScN - should be done within the next two yrs

-have achieved very good grades thus far

 

 

I am wondering if there are any other people out there who have made it into medical school with a similar background? I do believe that if you want something bad enough you have a strong chance of success - but is med school just too big of a dream?

 

I wonder - even if I apply as a mature student - if dropping out of high school will be a big factor (ie: with the application process). I'm thinking it would be. But then again - my grades in post secondary education have been great. With age comes ... some... wisdom

 

And to consider further another route... if I were to decide to go to university full time - and take (for example) a biology degree (something that interests me) - and then write the MCAT - how difficult would it be for someone with my background to apply to those Ontario schools requiring the MCAT?

 

Can you write the MCAT (and thus apply to those schools) after obtaining just a 2 yr completion degree?

 

I realize my age is a factor and know that some may comment on this aspect. However I am more concerned with my education requirements and the fact that I was a high school drop out.

 

I appreciate any advice, support, and information you may provide.

[Guest aneliz]

Some thoughts...

 

1. Your high school drop-out status will not be a factor... high school marks are not asked for or looked at. The fact you dropped out will not be apparent from your application.

 

2. Most schools require a minimum of three full years of university level study (15.0 credits at a minimum). Most require at least two of these years to be completed as a full time student (5.0 full courses between Sept-April). Many have specific pre-reqs (Bio, chem, arts/social science, essay courses, etc) that vary with the school. I am not sure if your BScN completion degree meet these requirements. Some schools are moving towards requiring a full-4 year honours undergrad degree as a pre-req (UWO).

 

3. The MCAT may be written by anyone that pays the registration fee. You do not have to have completed a certain number of university courses before writing. You could write it anytime you want... of course having studied the things that it tests will make it easier.

[Guest linkinpark]

Anything is possible if you work hard.

 

But, put into consideration that older applicants have much of a less chance of gaining admission than younger applications. You can look up the statistics for this.

[Guest Elaine I]

I did a degree completion program at Ryerson. My degree is actually a 4 year degree, even though I only attended Ryerson for 2 years. That is because with these programs, you are given 2 years of transfer credits, usually based on work at college.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't received clarification as to whether my degree (Bachelor of Health Administration) is considered an honours degree or a general degree. Ryerson thought it fell more into the "professional" category when I asked. For me, that means I really hope I get into med school for September 2006, the last year that honours degress aren't required. Does the same apply to a BScN - is it considered a general or honours degree (or a professional degree)?

 

It sounds like you have the required GPA for med school. It also sounds like you have some great experience, as well as a mature outlook on life. I have been told time and time again that age isn't a factor, as long as you meet the requirements, and that health care experience may actually help in the process. If med school is what you want, then go for it! You are not out of the running, especially if you have a good GPA.

 

Do you have the option of taking a full course load between September or April? From experience, it is tough while continuing to work full time, but it opened more doors for me. I did the last year of my Ryerson program as a full time student (actually 7.0 courses, counting my practicum), and then did a year of non-degree studies as a full time student by distance ed (6.0 courses, combination of Athabasca and Waterloo).

 

It might be worthwhile creating a table of all of the med schools in Canada, as well as their requirements. Consider which ones you are interested in applying to, and what each of their requirements are. For example, you might be interested in Queen's but not Western. Then, you only need 3.5 courses to be considered full time (however, if your overall GPA is high enough, you may not need to even worry about being full time).

 

Best wishes to you! It is not too late if you are motivated and determined!!

Elaine

[Guest blinknoodle]

I can definitely say that dropping out of high school will not be a factor. In my meds class, someone dropped out of high school and then proceeded to fail out of college. They eventually went back to university, completed their entire degree with great marks and is now in our class.

[Guest 2Late2Learn]

First - thanks all for the replies! I knew I could count on you all.

 

I am very relieved to hear that high school (or lack there of) will not be a factor in my application.

 

I'm also pleased to have found out that the BScN that I am working on is considered a 4 yr degree. This is good because at my age time is of the essence.

 

Aneliz - I might not even write the MCAT if I'm not meeting the educational requirements of three yrs/full course load. This is something I'll have to look further into with regard to each specific school.

 

Elaine - I'm just wondering how (exactly) taking a full time yr helped open up doors for you. Would you mind elaborating? Also, I agree that a table outlining specific requirements might help - however I am also finding that the requirements are (at times) somewhat vague for someone in my situation (ie: non-traditional educational background/mature student/etc). It's these variances that I am attempting - rather poorly - to decipher.

 

Linkinpark - Yep - the age thing is one of those non-modifiable risk factors that I cannot do anything about! I HOPE to make them overlook my age by wow-ing them with my stellar grades and youthful good looks (thanks oil of olay!). Yeah right! haha Seriously though, I am aware that it does limit my chances - but does not rule me out completely.

 

Thanks all for that you've written so far.

[Guest medeng]

I would just like to clarify what linkinpark was (I hope) saying. If you look at the statistics of age of applicants vs. age of accepted the best odds are for 24 y.o. (if I remember correctly, I don't feel like looking it up again...) There is no evidence other than those numbers that schools actively discriminate against older apps, or younger ones for that matter, and obviously they would never get away with it if they did try and do that! The numbers are most likely the result of confounding factors, not discrimination.

 

Basically you aren't in the "best" demographic, but there is nothing in place that will restrict you as an individual.

[Guest Elaine I]

Full time schooling "opens doors" at universities where full time years are required. Here is a list of the requirements of the schools that I know about:

 

Western - require 2 years of 5.0 courses each year; each year must be above the minimum GPA (currently 3.7, but subject to change each year); as of September 2007, will require an honours degree (not sure if BScN counts as honours or general)

 

Queens - will calculate GPA based on all courses - if meet minimum (3.66 last year), no problem; if not, will calculate GPA based on most recent 2 years provided each year had a minimum of 3.5 courses each

 

Dalhousie - will look at most recent 2 years of 5.0 courses per year, but can request them to consider less courses if you are working (especially full time)

 

Calgary - will look at most recent 2 years of 4.0 courses per year

 

McMaster - will look at all courses ever taken, regardless of course load

 

U of T - if not full time (5.0 courses per year) for entire degree, will calculate GPA the same way as Mac

 

Ottawa - will calculate weighted GPA of most recent 2 or 3 years; I believe you need 5.0 courses per year, but I'm not sure; the average for non-Ottawa residents/English speaking is quite high (~3.83)

 

Northern - will calculate weighted GPA same as Ottawa, but cut-off is only 3.0; no minimum course load each year; strong emphasis on being from a northern community

 

Based on the requirements of many of the schools, I made the decision to go to university full time, since doing so would open many more doors. It wasn't always easy; however, my employer was quite supportive of modifying my schedule (still had to work FT, but was allowed to work more weekends/nights) to allow me to attend class. This past year, I chose to take all of my courses by distance ed, since I was doing some training at work, and thus didn't have the flexibility that I had last year.

 

Hope that helps. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

 

Elaine

[Guest wattyjl]

actually, if you look here, and at the appropriate table (page 7), the highest success rate is for those under 20. (is this skewed by quebec cegep applicants? who else gets into medschool at less than 20yrs of age??).

[Guest medeng]

Right you are... I guess I was thinking of the highest number of applicants, I knew I should have looked it up again!

 

Those numbers must be skewed by cegep numbers, if you look at the acceptance rates for QC, they jump from 22-28% in 2000/01 - 2001/02, and the <20 rates jump from 29-37% in the same year. Still, it would seem that <20s have an advantage in QC... That might be related to IP (cegep) vs. OOP (uni) though...

 

Sorry for the hijack, hopefully the thread returns to the original poster's question...

[Guest linkinpark]

You can make it

 

Looking at the website however, >28 year old applicants have half a chance of admission than other people.

[Guest Ruenil]

I haven't read too carefully over the site, but could it just seem like there is a smaller chance because of the sheer number of people <28 that are applying, compared to those >28?

[Guest FungManX]

Hey don't worry you can make it,

after a certain age people dont' want to go back to school because they are comfortable enough with the lives that they are living. You however seem to have a dream/goal you want to achieve during your lifetime and without it you won't be happy ( well.. thats how i feel about myself anyway so i'm assuming your like that too ).

 

Don't look at those stats, I know of plenty of older people that have made it in.

My aunt that works as a nurse at VGH told me a story about another nurse (back when she was just starting 20 years ago.. this guy had was at step 6 or something... and it takes around 10 years to achieve that step 6 status so you can probably assume he was around 31-32) that went back to medical school after getting a BScN and is now the head general surgeon of the hospital!

 

So yes definately you can make it, and no age should not factor in with your application, if anything it will make you a better applicant since you have more experience with healthcare!

 

Good Luck

[Guest purplefairy13]

I say go for it! If anything, your story shows perseverance and dedication

But, consider this...by the time you finish med school, internship and perhaps a specialty, you will be a few years into your forties. If you are already established in your current carreer, maybe you should just continue on with it...you are working in the medical feild anyway If you really want the M.D., though, it sounds like you've thought it out, experienced the lifestyle, and would enjoy it! Once again, go for it!

[Guest FungManX]

to add to purplefairy, yes if you go on to complete your medical education, (4years degree + 6? year residency for surgury.. something I think your probably gonna take?)

 

then you'll be around... what 48-50?

You'll still be that doctor for 10 -15 years which is still plenty of time

[Guest 2Late2Learn]

Thank you everyone for all of your replies. You have been very supportive and informative. I have been really busy at work and have not been able to get back to you all sooner.

 

A few comments stemming from your above replies...

 

(I might add here that I had already written this but seem to have lost it when flipping back to the previous posts... if I inadvertantly post twice here - sorry. I'll try to repeat myself in this post)

 

My main concern has been that I would have to somehow justify dropping out of high school. I have attempted to look over the OMSAS application but it seems that it is not posted on the net at this point (any one know when it will go up?). I am not sure what all they ask (with particular regard to high schooling and in those biographical sketches) but I really do not think that I would want to divulge all of that information. Basically dropping out of high school was the result of losing a sibling at a crucial age in my life and a lack of coping skills ('failure to cope' if you will). Once I know exactly what I'll have to tell about myself I'll determine which info to include. It's just that this was such a long time ago but unfortuanly still classes me as a high school drop out. I'd like to start mapping out my personal sketch/time line of significant events... I just do not know where to really begin. (must hurry before alzheimers sets in... hahaha)

 

As for being a "Senior" applicant ... I also tend to think that the numbers for older admissions can be partially attributed to fewer of us applying. I've read some posts that mention 'how much money can a peson make during such a short career / how could you pay for your education with such a short career / etc' however are these not just personal questions and could they not be irrelevant for some? (and would the admissions people really care then?) Yes an income is an important aspect of our lives but I also believe that a person should work a career that they are passionate about otherwise it becomes 'just a job'. Since we spend so much of our time devoted to our work it should be something we love. How many people can you think of who work in a place that they don't enjoy 'but the money is good' - does that not roll over into their personal lives? So... I tend not to care how many dollars I can make in X amt of yrs. Plus - with age on my side... I already own my home and have some money set aside towards retirement - more (I'm thinking) than most 22 yr olds being accepted into med school. Enough said I think.

 

As for the comment about 6 yr surgical residency. It's funny, yesterday I was talking to a neurosurgeon and he said I should become one too (to ease his workload). Sure I said... 20 yrs of residency... hmmmm. Not likely. Seriously though I'm leaning towards family or emergency medicine. Both offer shorter residencies and both appeal to me. I realize of course that my thoughts could very well change.

 

Another thing that I plan to look into is the possibility of applying before I've actually completed my degree. (ie: a person can apply in their final year). If the timing is right I'm wondering if I can do this - if it looks promising/or if I'm able to drop from full time to part time at work - then maybe I could do one full time yr at university.

 

Ok... I think I've babbled enough for one post. Sorry it's so long but you've all been really encouraging and have helped to ease the doubts that have been lurking in this shriveling (aging) brain of mine.

 

Thank you.

[Guest 2Late2Learn]

You'll still be that doctor for 10 -15 years which is still plenty of time

 

I love this - thanks!

[Guest caliente]

2Late2Learn,

 

I really think you have nothing serious to worry about at this point. You have TONS of "life experience" and extensive work in healthcare. It sounds like you've really thought this through, and I expect many medical schools would be glad to have you.

 

Also, the high school drop-out issue: I really don't think it will be a problem since it happened so long ago. It is such an ancient and petty thing to hold over someone's head, especially since you have moved on from it (i.e. you didn't let it detrimentally affect your life in perpetuality...oops, may not have used the correct word there). You also come across as very articulate, unlike me, lol. I'm not on any admissions committee, but I truly do not think this is something that will hold you back.

 

Furthermore, the autobiographical sketch asks you to consider activities/accomplishments since the age of 16. Obviously, you will have many more items than me (traditional undergrad applicant). List all your activities in reverse chronological order...I bet you'll exceed the limit BEFORE you reach the age of 18/19. You are only allowed under 50 entries, if I remember correctly.

 

It sounds like you have so much to write about in your applications that you don't even need to mention dropping out if you don't want to. Although, you could use it as an example of how you initally failed to cope, then regained order in your life, etc. At this point, high school is not important because it is so far removed from where you are presently. It perhaps holds more importance for an applicant like me since it's only been 4 years, but I barely mentioned it on my applications since even I, a youngun, had more important and CURRENT things to talk about then graduating from high school.

 

A side note: if you plan on applying to OSAP for financial aid, or any government loans agency, they may expect you to cash your investments and RSPs to pay for school. I know for myself OSAP considered these to be assets and therefore I showed less financial need. However, you are older so the government might have the brains to realize you'll need the money to retire, so it might not be such a great idea to pull the money out at this time in your life.

 

Once again, I personally think you should not be worrying so much about dropping out of high school. Water under the bridge, imho. Good luck...

[Guest caliente]

Some more information on the sketck:

 

Less than 50 entries allowed (I think the exact number was 48 this year).

 

For most schools, you'll only get one line to explain what the activity or accomplishment entailed. For example, "Cashier/Sales/Floor Manager, American Eagle Outfitters". If schools have questions about any of these, you'll probably be asked to clarify during the interview. For Ottawa, there is a little more room to give a expanded explanation on the application.

 

Some of the categories I remember: formal education, accomplishments & awards (including academic and non-academic), extracurricular activities, volunteer work, paid employment, research experience. You can really put down anything you think is important because there is an "Others" category. In total, there is a maximum of around 50 items you can enter on to the sketch. Technically, you could have 50 volunteer entries or 50 employment entries (not recommended, though). You also do not have to completely fill out the sketch. If you only have 30 things you deem important and want to share with admissions, then so be it.

 

Hope this helps. If you knew all this stuff already, sorry to have wasted your time.

[Guest Braveheart]

I really agree with caliente here, you have nothing to worry about in your med school application. You should DEFINITELY not look at the statistics to determine the "probability" of you getting accepted. Afterall, they mean nothing! It's not like the admissions committee sits down and says, "hmm... let's only allow 10% of those over 28yrs of age make it into med school." You're right in the fact that you think fewer people over the age of 28 apply to medical school. I think the statistics of those making it in demonstrate what age most people apply at. So don't worry about your age! If anything, it would be advantageous for you, being one with more life experience and "more mature."

 

So all I say is, keep those good marks up and you'll be a good applicant for med school. However, with that being said, I would be pretty certain that if you are granted an interview, they may ask you "Why should we take you in considering that you are an older student?" just to try to make you sweat.

 

Good luck in your med school endeavors!

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Looking at the website however, >28 year old applicants have half a chance of admission than other people.

 

I'm not usually this blunt, but that is bull-@?#$.

 

I have no idea of the exact chances of a 28 year old relative to a 23 year old relative to an 18 year old relative to a 33 or 38 year old.

 

But to say the chances are 'less than half' is making a claim one can't backup.

 

The main reason you have more 23 and 24 year olds in medical school than 28 year olds is easy - more 23 and 24 year olds take the plunge into med apps as they are often at the end of their undergrad career and looking for the 'next step.' Many 28 year olds are already in careers and don't apply to medicine. But you definitely do see 28 year olds in 1st year medical school classes. . .

 

Judging by who I've seen walking around interview weekends then who has been in the actual classes, I would guess there is NO bias against applicants in their late 20s and 30s.

[Guest Braveheart]

My thought's exactly!

[Guest 2Late2Learn]

I just wanted to thank you all once again. You've certainly jumpstarted my motivation and have provided me with some truly appreciated encouragement.

 

It's been a difficult decision for me - not in the sense of 'do I want to become a physician' (this is an absolute) - but more along the lines of 'am I just wasting my time' (will I even have a chance). However saying this, I had also come to the conclusion long ago that I will never be happy if I do not try. So, I'll give it my 110% and hope for the best. At least somewhere down the road I will never regret having chosen a decision of not to bother attempting med school admission. My only regret is not to have chosen this path sooner in my life. On the other hand - I do think that things happen and work out for a reason (corny???) - and perhaps the path I have in fact taken (ie: nontraditional) is in the end going to prove to be the most advantageous for me. Who knows and time will tell.

 

The decision to go to med school and all of the hard work that this entails is something that requires a very strong commitment (sorry - I'm sure you are all very aware of this!). I suppose I just had some lingering doubts in my mind that were making me lose faith in my ability to achieve this goal. As I've stated - you've helped to alleviate the doubts.

 

Most women have a biological clock ticking with regard to child rearing... mine is ticking toward being too late for med school! Silly, huh?

 

Anyway - thanks everyone! Talk to you soon.

[Guest stepstofollow]

It is NOT too late. That stat about older people having less of a chance is ridiculous -- it may "seem" like fewer "older" people get in or have less of a chance -- but perhaps that's because we talk ourselves out of applying in the first place -- quite bit of selection bias in that sample!!! Important to look at statistics for med class entrants a little more carefully, I think.

 

You just need to make the DECISION to apply and not look back. For me -- the process of getting ready to apply opened so many doors. I finished a Master of Medical education, got involved in curriculum development and research-- if I had not gotten into medicine -- I ended up having a whole slew of new paths to choose from -- all of which I would have been very happy with.

 

If you achieve a reasonable recent MCAT score and can demonstrate that you can handle the work by taking courses, upgrading , doing another degree, whatever... -- that with all the other experience and expertise will speak VOLUMES as mitigating factors. It may vary from school to school -- but ask for specific assistance/advice in developing a plan. Dr.Hughes at Dalhousie was extremely helpful to me in this regard -- I would not rely solely on info from this Board -- there is often a lot of misinformation, amidst the many helpful tips and advice

 

I am 34. I was accepted to Dalhousie for 2005. And I can't wait. I've been talking myself OUT of applying for for years.... So I've been there. But, I've had a lot of support from husband, family, and colleagues getting here who continually helped to compartmentalize my cognitive distortions.....

 

Don't let anyone tell you "you're crazy". I made the decision to apply at 32 and spent a year going back to university to upgrade undergrad GPA and help me prepare for the MCAT, and then another year to complete an M. Ed. (my choice) and save a bit of money.

 

As a matter of fact, I've already run into at least 3 other over "30's" that have been already accepted to Dal for 2005 (all were accepted pretty early on -- although I think it's pretty much luck when you get reviewed by the adcom at Dal) and I anticipate there may be others!!

 

Medical School classes are becoming a little more diverse -- people with all educational backgrounds, a wide range of ages.

 

You can do this -- the worst thing? You don't get in . There are lots of pathways and choices. I think it would be very bad to wake up on my 40th birthday and realize -- I never even bothered to try once I realized I had wanted to do it.

 

“Each of us has the right and responsibility to assess the roads which lie ahead and those over which we have traveled, and if the future road looms unpromising and the roads back uninviting, then we need to gather our resolve and, carrying only the necessary baggage, step off that road into another direction.” [Maya Angelou]

 

PS- try having a clock ticking for BOTH med school and chld rearing....:lol I've given up trying to over plan my life -- what happens happens. You can do this.

[Guest me maniac]

Just to really cement in the notion that your age has nothing to do with it: I am 39. I have classmates who are 38,37,and all the way down to 19. I know people in upper and lower years who are 42, 44, and 49!

 

Age has nothing to do with it. Obviously more 24 years are represented because not too many people are crazy enough to give up a comfortable life and be a poor student (like me :b ).

 

You should, however, be able to answer the age old (no pun intended) question at your interview that everyone else will be asked: Why medicine? Why now?

 

I think your answer may be different than that of the 24year olds, but BEING DIFFERENT is exactly what will make you stand out. I used to think the same way you are about the age thing, but now that I am in, I can honestly say that it NEVER even crosses my mind.

 

me

 

PS. Discriminating someone based solely on age (or race, or religion for that matter) was illegal in this country last time I checked.