Master's first or MD?

[SheriffLobo]

Hey guys...I have quite a conundrum on my hands here, was hoping you guys could help. My first two years of undergrad at UofT were pretty terrible...and I mean...ridiculously terrible. However I'm in my 4th year now and I need about 2 more credits to graduate which I will be taking next semester (i.e. '08 fall). My cGPA will probably fall slightly short of a 3.0 however my GPA in my senior years is around 3.85-3.9. My senior GPA is good enough for me to apply directly into a couple of pHd programs but I prefer to settle for a Master's because i want to get into medical school sometime or the other. I was wondering...should I apply for a master's first? or should I try to apply to med schools? Chances are I won't get in to the med school's in Ontario...with the exception of maybe Mac and Queens (Queen's because it takes your best two years as an alternate to cGPA). However I was told that Queens considers the best full-time years...does anyone know if this is true? because I've been taking 3.0 credits in my 3rd and fourth years due to course conflicts at UofT. So what do you guys think I should do? Apply for a master's first? or apply to med schools first and if i get rejected apply for a masters?

[Guest begaster]

Queen's will look at your last two years. Western will look at your best two. You have a shot at both.

[Kyleh]

Have you written the MCAT yet?

[SheriffLobo]

honestly I probably forgot to mention it but I plan on writing the MCAT this summer...I hear it is now computerized as well as being shortened so I'm probably going to be one of the many guinea pigs for it.

[blinknoodle]

Hi there,

 

Welcome to the forums. I encourage you to search the archives, as many people have been in a similar predicament as you.

 

As you probably know, unless you have 2 full-time (5 courses from Sept-Apr) above ~3.7 in an honours program, you won't have the pre-reqs to apply to UWO.

 

It sounds like Queen's would be your best option, as they have a lower threshold for a full courseload. Your next hurdle will be that MCAT though.

 

Wrt grad vs medicine in the meantime, remember that it is unlikely for you to apply during the first year of your Masters (medical schools don't like to see you jump ship from a grad degree). Also remember that not all masters degrees take 2 years - what happens if it takes longer?

 

There are certainly pros and cons to applying to grad school before getting into medical school. There are also other options during those years in limbo (try the search). If you are at all considering grad school, look into the deadlines for funding (NSERC, CIHR) which are usually in the fall.

[Alastriss]

honestly I probably forgot to mention it but I plan on writing the MCAT this summer...I hear it is now computerized as well as being shortened so I'm probably going to be one of the many guinea pigs for it.

 

Hey, your last two years give you a good shot at queens and western. I think that if you do well on ur mcat, you would have a darn good shot (not just a shot)

 

However, nothing is for sure. The MCAT is not that easy, and a lot can go wrong because from my experience a lot of it depends on whether or not ur "in the zone" on that day. Btw you are not the guinea pig so its not that bad

 

I want to say that if you don't enjoy lab work/research don't do research based masters, cuz let me tell you, if you don't enjoy it u will hate ur life for 2years. You can always do a course based masters if that tickles your fancy more, but its always wise to take the time to talk to MSc students in both course based and research based program and get their opinion. If you like research but not the lab work then maybe consider doing an epidemiology MSc.

 

Good luck with everything.

[SheriffLobo]

Well with regards to my original post, I made a slight miscalculation in my overall GPA for my last two years...as it stands my cgpa will be around 3.67..which falls pretty short I think for Queens and UWO. I think as it stands Masters is my best option at this point? Thanks for the help you guys have been giving me by the way...It's really helping, and I will do some more forum hunting for people in a similar situation as I am

[Jochi1543]

UWO requires 5.0 courses a year in those 2 years, though, and it appears that you only took 3.0 in your best years, so if that's the case, you are not eligible for UWO at this point.

[SheriffLobo]

yeah I figured that...I did some research on the forum and on UWO's official website and realized I had no chance at UWO...so I guess my best bet is at Queens...although as it stands I doubt I'll be able to get in.

[webshy]

yeah I figured that...I did some research on the forum and on UWO's official website and realized I had no chance at UWO...so I guess my best bet is at Queens...although as it stands I doubt I'll be able to get in.

 

Why do you say you doubt you'll get in? All you need to do for Queen's is meet either the overall or 2-year GPA and MCAT cut-offs. Once you get an interview, your marks and MCAT no longer count. Your application is based entirely on your answers to the questions asked as well as your interview.

 

Plus, all it takes is one interview to get in!

 

Best wishes,

Elaine

[The Law]

Well with regards to my original post, I made a slight miscalculation in my overall GPA for my last two years...as it stands my cgpa will be around 3.67..which falls pretty short I think for Queens and UWO. I think as it stands Masters is my best option at this point? Thanks for the help you guys have been giving me by the way...It's really helping, and I will do some more forum hunting for people in a similar situation as I am

 

You never know for Queen's... the cGPA fluctuates every year!

[theyab]

You would honestly be better off finishing two more full-time years as an undergrad and scoring highly, than doing a Masters degree.

 

Just my 2 cents though, good luck

[SheriffLobo]

Well I'm not sure but I think Queens takes into account the last two years of fulltime study, I did post saying that my last two years I only took 3 credits worth due to course conflicts.That being said, my cgpa of my last two years if they chose to accept it would fall under 3.78 so unless MCAT results are used as a flag, I'm not sure whether my chances of getting in are very high. Maybe someone can confirm/disregard some of the admission policies I've mentioned regarding Queens?

[mcpherv]

Well I'm not sure but I think Queens takes into account the last two years of fulltime study, I did post saying that my last two years I only took 3 credits worth due to course conflicts.That being said, my cgpa of my last two years if they chose to accept it would fall under 3.78 so unless MCAT results are used as a flag, I'm not sure whether my chances of getting in are very high. Maybe someone can confirm/disregard some of the admission policies I've mentioned regarding Queens?

 

Queen's uses either your cGPA or the average of your last two years of study. You must meet both this cutoff and the MCAT cutoffs to be selected for interview. If you are applying as a grad student, they will waive the GPA cutoff if they deem your academic record to be satisfactory, but you must still meet the MCAT cutoff.

 

http://meds.queensu.ca/undergrad/admissions/method_of_selection

 

Various other schools give slightly different bonuses, etc to grad students. The two schools that offer graduate student application streams are UoT and UoO; these streams predominantly evaluate the candidates on their graduate student performance (grad marks, publications, presentations, funding awards, etc.).

 

Toronto wants a minimum 3.0 undergrad GPA before they will allow you to submit a grad package. The grad package allows the applicant to submit a CV, evidence of grad productivity and up to 3 additional reference letters regarding their graduate level performance. Overall, "Graduate students are assessed on the basis of undergraduate marks, graduate course marks, letters of reference, MCAT results, non-academic assessment, publications and performance in the interview."

 

http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0809/Graduate_Applicants.htm

 

Ottawa wants an 85% average in your graduate level classes. You also must meet a minimum weighted GPA for your last 3 years of undergraduate study (which is currently set to 3.50 for the anglophone stream).

 

Grad student policies for Ottawa can be found here:

http://www.intermed.med.uottawa.ca/Students/MD/admissions/Legacy/eng/AdmissionPolicy.html

 

 

Mostly, other schools give minimal bonuses for holding a graduate degree. For instance:

 

- Alberta gives a bonus point in the overall selection process for holding a Master's, or 3 for a Ph.D. (http://www.med.ualberta.ca/education/ugme/admissions/dofm_selection.cfm).

 

-McMaster gives 1 point for a Master's and 4 for holding a Ph.D. BEFORE applying (ie. you need to have completed the degree by the time you apply, which means that you have to find something to do for the year in which you're applying) in the PRE interview selection process. (http://65.39.131.180/ContentPage.aspx?name=MD_Prog_-_Admissions_-_Selection_Process) Note that the link doesn't expressely list the exact bonuses you get for holding either type of degree - I think I got that from somewhere in the posts located in the McMaster forum here.

 

Other schools give various other (SMALL) bonuses. In my opinion, they are not appreciable.

 

However, one thing to think about is the fact that you will have anything that comes from the research as fodder for your autobiographical sketch. Performing well would give your CV a fair boost for the schools that don't directly give you much additional consideration as far as you're GPA is concerned. Furthermore, you will have the opportunity to establish a repore with your supervisor and supervisory committee members, which could yield strong letters of reference.

 

 

I am currently in the middle of an M.Sc. in Biochem, in the field of cell biology. I am in a bit of a different position than your are, as my last two years of undergrad study are at 3.79, while my overall cGPA is at 3.53 due to recieving a 2.77 in my second year. My MCAT stands at 10/10/11 31Q and was written in August of 2005, and I first applied for entrance beginning in 2006. I recieved one interview from Western during that cycle but did not recieve an acceptance.

 

I meet the Queen's cutoffs from last year, but not the ones from the year before, when I first applied (two years ago the cutoffs were 9/10/9 32O, while this last cycle they were 10/10/10 30P). This has me in a precarious position, as I am unsure as to whether or not the cutoffs will revert back to requiring a total of 32 and being a bit more relaxed with respect to the component cutoff scores.

 

While one person I know found the time to rewrite the MCAT during grad school, I decided against it, as it requires a LOT of time, effort and dedication to be a productive grad student (ie. obtain publications, give conference presentations, etc.), and you do not get summers off. Publications are significant accomplishments in my field and it is not very often that individuals obtain a first author publication within ~1.5 years of starting their project (which, it seems from looking at the older posts in the UoT forum, makes you competitive in the Grad applicant stream). Furthermore, there is a great deal of variability in the length of time that it will take for any given project to yeild results sufficient enough to produce a publication - therefore there is a measure of luck involved. Of the two other students that I have talked to that have entered into a graduate degree with the intention to use it as a gateway into medical school, neither had a first author publication submitted by the graduate package submission deadline for UoT (I did). All of this means that it is very difficult to either write or rewrite the MCAT during your grad studies, as this will take away time from your research and thus make you less competitive in the graduate applicant streams (access to these are one of the main advantages you get from doing a grad degree!). Therefore, if you begin a M.Sc., make sure you write the MCAT beforehand, and make certain your result is one that you can live with. Otherwise, it will be rather difficult to do anything about it.

 

In my case, had I taken a 5th year of undergraduate study I would have recieved interviews last year from both Queen's and Western, which would have given me a solid chance at admission a year ago. However, (providing I get into med school soon!) I value the experience that I have had during my M.Sc., as I have discovered that I quite like research and it has instilled in me a desire to do medical research as a physician in the future. With that in mind, I don't think that this has been a waste of time by any stretch, however, it may have tacked on an additional year to the process.

[Jochi1543]

Longest freaking post I've ever read, man, MAD REPZ.

[SheriffLobo]

Thank you MC for your extremely long and informative post. I seriously agree with some of the things you have brought up in your post. I have had research experience (i.e. taken a research course) so I do find research interesting and therefore a Master's doesn't seem like much of a hassle to me. That being said I will still write my MCAT soon because if I do apply to grad school I don't want it getting in the way of research. I do wish the best of luck to you mcpherv in your research. I do know it's sometimes a pain to get results. Finally, I was wondering, maybe I should just take a full course load next year and make the best of my gpa

[Alastriss]

Thank you MC for your extremely long and informative post. I seriously agree with some of the things you have brought up in your post. I have had research experience (i.e. taken a research course) so I do find research interesting and therefore a Master's doesn't seem like much of a hassle to me. That being said I will still write my MCAT soon because if I do apply to grad school I don't want it getting in the way of research. I do wish the best of luck to you mcpherv in your research. I do know it's sometimes a pain to get results. Finally, I was wondering, maybe I should just take a full course load next year and make the best of my gpa

 

I have to agree, I wrote my mcat this past summer while working in a lab and even I found it hard to manage. A MSc student who is quite intelligent and hard working was also writing the mcat (entering 2nd year of MSc) and she had to bail out because she just couldn't manage the studying and the lab work.

 

IMO try to do them in different timelines, because splitting up your time and trying to do research and write the mcats will result in u not succeeding in either.

[Ollie]

I wrote the MCAT while I was an MSc student and I didn't have a problem. It does require an understanding supervisor who's OK with you not putting in the nights and weekends for a few months. I also chose not to TA at all during my MSc because of the extra time demands.

[mcpherv]

Thank you MC for your extremely long and informative post. I seriously agree with some of the things you have brought up in your post. I have had research experience (i.e. taken a research course) so I do find research interesting and therefore a Master's doesn't seem like much of a hassle to me. That being said I will still write my MCAT soon because if I do apply to grad school I don't want it getting in the way of research. I do wish the best of luck to you mcpherv in your research. I do know it's sometimes a pain to get results. Finally, I was wondering, maybe I should just take a full course load next year and make the best of my gpa

 

Your welcome, and thanks for the well-wishes. Good luck in your future studies as well.

 

As far as your last question, it is difficult to say. What is your last year's GPA? If you are confident that you could achieve the GPA necessary to make the 2 year GPA cutoff at Queen's, then you might be competitive at Queen's, provided you do well on the MCAT. However, remember that Queen's will only have the marks from the years before you apply - thus, you would have to do well enough next year, and then apply the following year (2 years total). Doing a M.Sc. is a 2-3 year process in many programs (can be done in 2 provided you work hard, your supervisor is supportive and your project doesn't run into significant dead-ends). This means that it would be 2 years either way. Either way is a gamble, but the M.Sc. would make one of the cutoffs at Queen's much more flexible and allow you to make use of the grad applicant streams (although - do the calculation and see if you make the 3.5 wGPA cut for Ottawa first).

 

This is a personal decision and you must do some serious thinking in regards to it. The one other thing to think about is the fact that beginning graduate training provides a solid backup career that you may or may not enjoy. Only you know your priorities well enough to decide on that one as well (I am by NO means advocating you give up this pursuit here - it is absolutely still possible for you to enter medical school - just proposing another alternative view).

 

I wrote the MCAT while I was an MSc student and I didn't have a problem. It does require an understanding supervisor who's OK with you not putting in the nights and weekends for a few months. I also chose not to TA at all during my MSc because of the extra time demands.

 

Yeah, I'd say its probably doable, but I did shy away from it anticipating difficulty in trying to balance the workloads and still maintain a high level of productivity in the lab. That said, there are probably examples on both sides of the fence here. I was in a position where I already had a solid MCAT score which potentially is strong enough to grant me interviews at both Queen's and Western, and I made the decision (gamble) to not re-write the MCAT only after I saw last year's Queen's MCAT cutoffs. Its possible that I came across too strongly on this topic in the above post, but I maintain that although it may be possible, it jeapardizes the students ability to be productive enough to be competitive in the graduate application process. However, the big, obvious caveat here is that I have yet to enter medical school, and I am basing these impressions on the posts on this forum from graduate applicants that applied in the last number of years. It is possible that these posts reflect only a very strong segment of the graduate applicants that were successful in recieving interviews/acceptances, and it is therefore also possible that my impression regarding what is competitive in graduate applicant streams is skewed. Do you have any additional insight into this topic?

[biloba]

In regards to Graduate Admission,

 

I know a lot of schools look at the last 2 years in terms of marks.

My question is, would you need a full course load for both those courses to be considered???

 

Thanks!