ManM Med Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 .......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avenir001 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 did u not apply this cycle? u'd have gotten an interview at queens with those stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManM Med Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Haha, funny you mention that... I applied this cycle. The only Ontario school I didn't apply to was Queens. I thought their previous love for the MCAT would make my application as good as toilet papper. Kinda ironic considering how things turned out with the MCAT cut off... Just goes to show... Everyone, apply all over regardless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennethToronto Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Canada / US > Everything else. This is your future, your medical education will be with you for life. I would avoid the stigma / missed opportunities and closed doors / and headaches that come with being an IMG. You say you can see yourself doing FP/IM, but what if a year in you decide something else was what you wanted to? What are you going to do then? I would say do whatever you can (in your case, rewrite the MCAT!) and try Canada and US again. Your choice though...instant gratification now but unforseen headaches down the road, or the tougher road but possibly less headaches and more open doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I second Kenneth's POV. Especially because you need to remember that right now, it's probably easier to deal with obstacles as you likely do not have a spouse and children to worry about. Test your luck while you are still relatively free of responsibility, it'll be too risky later on in life. If you have to take an extra year of school and a coupla grand of student loans now, it's better than if you find yourself in debt, unemployed, and with a family to take care of somehow a few years down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futuremedstudent? Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I too am in a similar boat. I have around a 3.7 GPA. I don't know the exact score as Guelph does it a different way. Basically though every year I received between an 80-84 with my average. My MCAT was a 30 O. I applied this cycle and had an interview but I really don't want to wait a whole year to repeat this cycle if I get rejected when I know that I'll probably be accepted into the Caribbean. To me spending two years in the hot sun followed by two years in the states seems like a fine idea. I don't even think it'd be awful if I was stuck in the states though I'd prefer to come back to Canada. What I'm wondering is how much you researched Australia and Ireland. I looked at a couple Australia school and their tuition was around $40,000. I cannot afford such a high tuition. At SABA university in the Caribbean you are looking at half of that. Plus a far cheaper flight there. How does the Ireland tuition fair? Is it easier to get into Ireland and Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 When I talked to the RBC they said the average FP doc pays off their debt within 4-6 years. So the average Carrib doc may be looking at about 10 or so? Not great, but not horrible either. Lots of ppl are doing that when paying off their houses and chances are you still living more comfortably than the average Canadian. Prolly more than 10 years, because you are not just paying off double the principal, but also 2x the amount of interest on it. And yeah, that's similar to what you pay on your house, but you'd be paying off that AND your house. Then if you also have children, it can become a huge burden if you are not in a lucrative specialty. Does Canada Revenue even let you write off debt payments? I know in the US you can write off your mortgage payments and stuff, so at least you won't be paying as much in taxes if you have a lot of debt, but I dunno how it works in Canada with these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerroger Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I agree with the notion that Canada may not be the smartest move. But a carrib grad has to realistically look to the states. So all my research is mostly geared towards this. Personally, do Australia. Its pretty much like Canada but better. If Canada doesn't pan out you become an Aussie. Pretty decent deal if you ask me and the quality of life is the same as Canada if not higher. In terms of the moola, if you take a ~$100 000 income and then reduce it by a percentage to cover the loan etc. You probably are still ahead of many others even if you factor in a house and other expenses. Now driving around a mercades and having a extravagant house would be hard granted. But would comfortable living be out of reach? I am skeptical. I guess what I am getting at is that I wounder how much of the common ideas about the carrib are stigma and how much are fact. During the 80s the reputations of places like SGU were really dragged through the mud. Because the carrib schools are businesses in the strictest sense it is hard to determine the difference between old stigma and sales ppl. But on places like sdn and valueMD you don't see legions of starving carrib docs and med students. I guess I wish more unbiased info was available about this pathway. I have a gut feeling that it isn't as dead end as some make it seem if one is cool with the idea of living south of the border... Maybe I am overly optimistic... Either way, I will continue to research this and see what I can dig up. Anything worth while I will post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFed Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 As has been mentioned earlier, go Canadian or US, or not at all. Don't look for the short easy way. Do things right, even if it takes more time. Look for the weakness in your app-- whether it be MCAT, GPA, EC's, etc. All of these can be addressed through a post-bacc/ re-write/getting off that butt. If you do get a Carib/IMG acceptance while you think you could have worked a little harder to get into Canada, that acceptance letter will only taste like ash in your mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avenir001 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 lol this is a little off topic, but how's britney doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Personally, do Australia. Its pretty much like Canada but better. If Canada doesn't pan out you become an Aussie. Pretty decent deal if you ask me and the quality of life is the same as Canada if not higher. I thought you couldn't open practice in Australia for something like 6 years after graduating if you're not an AUS citizen/permanent resident? I may be off, but I thought that's what I heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippie Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 It's actually 10 years, however becoming an australian perm resident is not that hard, if you want to stay in Australia and you dont mind never coming back to Canada. Australia is ideal for you. The only bummer is that their training is significantly longer in almost all specialties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennethToronto Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I cam see how a $250 000 worth of debt could be scary, but once you are practicing I imagine this debt wouldn't be paralyzing. Its about twice a Canadian school tuition debt. When I talked to the RBC they said the average FP doc pays off their debt within 4-6 years. So the average Carrib doc may be looking at about 10 or so? Not great, but not horrible either. Lots of ppl are doing that when paying off their houses and chances are you still living more comfortably than the average Canadian. That's a very cavalier attitude toward debt. I don't have my excel spreadsheet on hand (public computer), but a $250,000 loan - which at best would be comprised of a typical RBC medical student line of credit (w. co-signor because they won't give you more than 150k-200k) + an expensive CanHELP loan - the monthly interest alone is near crippling. Pray tell how one goes about paying just the MONTHLY interest on a typical Canadian or US resident salary (typically $40k pre-tax) because if my memory serves me, unless you intend to sleep at the hospital and steal food from the cafeteria, it's hardly do-able. This is not to mention your monthly interest during school, if you don't have a way to pay it, is added to your principle. So what once was a $250,000, suddenly becomes a $220,000 loan because $30,000 was eaten by interest. I'm sure anyone who has experience paying off student debts knows it sucks and they don't seem to go away. Not in this world will you pay off a consolidated $250k loan as a FP within 10 years. This just really addresses the tip of the iceberg in terms of the financial aspects. There's a whole slew of other cons that are blatantly apparent from going abroad for your education - I don't believe rogeroger's mentality 'go to Australia! If you're stuck there, just stay in Australia!' is the way to go. Flying over to the other side of the world, permanently away from family and friends and everything you know, for what may be the rest of your life, while placing yourself into obscene levels of debt with an uncertain future...well, that just sounds like insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futuremedstudent? Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I find it interesting that everyone seems to be focusing on the massive debt involved with doing medicine abroad as if every place is just as expensive. True I cannot afford to study in Australia, Ireland or the USA as I have discovered but the Caribbean is pretty close to Canada in terms of tuition costs. SABA and MUA in the Caribbean both have their tuition around $8000/semester. That is not that much more than Canadian schools and if you do happen to be stuck practicing in the states they pay doctors more there so you're debt will be relieved sooner. Now I am still trying to figure out what to do about applying for medicine abroad or not myself but I just thought I'd throw that info out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerroger Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Yup... The sigma surfaces again. However, to be honest I personally I think saba is boarder line when it comes to the international schools. If I was thinking of going carrib I would limmit it to SGU and maybe Ross. Lots of ppl seem to love Saba and AUC though. Granted the tuition at those places is more realistic for the average premed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinknoodle Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 There are many barriers to getting into medical school. You have some pretty strong academic years, which is why I think it may be worthwhile still trying to tackle options in Canada and the US. Your MCAT is what is stopping you right now. While you may not want to rewrite it (I completely understand), think of all the extra standardized tests you would need to complete to try to return to Canada (USMLEs, MCCEE, and the MCCQEs like the rest of the Canadian medical students). I have met quite a few Canadians who went abroad and are trying to return to Canada, or have already. I met a Canadian who went to Ireland and returned for IM at Calgary (too bad ENT didn't work out as planned), another Canadian who went to Poland and is doing FM at UWO (always wanted to do FM), and others I met on their electives. It seems like the younger Canadian-born IMGs might have a better success rate then the older IMGs, but I have no stats to prove that. It will be an uphill battle, though, and perhaps easier to resettle in the US. I would try talking to these students to help make up your mind, to whether it is a wise investment. What I have found interesting is that a lot of people have told me that they received scholarships, so financial issues weren't as much of an issue. At least from the British-trained students (UK, Ireland, perhaps Australia although I am not certain), I have found there was a significant difference in their medical responsibility as a medical student compared to Canadian medical students. It is simply a different system, especially since entering into medicine from high school. Their post-grad training is also longer to account for the stratefied responsibility (in Britain there is the mandatory rotating internship). It is quite rigorous in the classroom. As one British medical student told me, she had outside interests in case she failed out of medicine, despite being in her final year. In one sense, that makes it seem like the Carribean is a better alternative since it caters to the American system, you have more liberty to do rotations in the US and back in Canada. But be careful... there was a Carribean medical student doing his core pediatrics rotation in the UWO NICU. That is absolutely terrible from a learning perspective: there is so much more to know then the first 28 days of anyone's life. Look into the specifics. The last thing you want to do is explain why you went to SABA for the umpteenth time. Good luck with your decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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