How cut-throat are we talking here?

[bcgirl33]

Hi everyone.

 

I'm hoping someone might be able to shed some light on this for me. As I learn more about different med schools, I find myself evaluating schools based on 'quality of life' as well as quality of education.

 

Toronto is known widely as a top school, except for it's reputation being intensely competitive (significantly more so than UBC, queens or calgary). Yes yes, I understand that we're talking about a range of students, some who compete and others who don't... but from what I keep hearing, the UofT program tends to engender a highly competitive environment... and perhaps unrelated to this, the quality of student life is much lower. There is much more stress, less support, and students are more cut-throat than community-minded.

 

I value my mental and emotional health, and I guess I just want to know... how competitive are we talking here? Beyond a healthy dose? Is it worth it?

[DD87]

I've also heard that U of T has much more frequent testing than other schools, like something on the order of a test every 2 weeks.

[futuredoc]

If Toronto is really that competitive, it probably isn't worth it (especially if you don't thrive on competition).

[1T1]

Whoa, what's up with this bashing of Toronto? I'll have you know that Toronto Medicine is not as competitive as rumor/myth might predict. Check out the topic about "Myths, BS and a little bit of truth...for interviewees!!".

[futuredoc]

Perhaps you should listen to 1T1, since he/she seems to already be in medical school.

[Guest begaster]

From what I've seen, residency match rates are about the same between Queen's, U of T, and Western. Can you back up your assertion that U of T students score the best?

 

As for coasting through other medical schools, the hell are you talking about? All medical schools mean HARD work. U of T does not cover more material than the Western or Queen's or Ottawa, or UBC, or McGill, or UC, etc. Seriously, perhaps you should stop bashing other schools and understand that almost every Canadian medical school has the same standard of training, and is absolutely excellent.

[quintessence]

I agree - We are incredibly lucky in that, in Canada, we will all get an incredible medical education regardless of which med school we attend (I don't think I have heard anything negative about the quality of education at any school)...choosing a med school in Canada is more about personal preference/biases with regards to location, class size etc, more than it is about the quality of the education. I also think that those who are prone to not taking medicine seriously will do that regardless of which school they attend - I'm not sure how much you can teach someone bedside manner.

 

As an aside, I'm at UofT for my undergrad and I do think it is the best education that I could have gotten in any school in the country - and regardless of the competition, the learning experience was more than worth it!

[KMG007]

From my second hand experience from UofT as I have not been a student there but have talked to a good 100 students just finishing up their last year of medical school I have heard this: They hate their school during exams (LIKE ANY NORMAL PERSON) but feel they have had an excellent education and will sing the schoo's praises during any other time. (Okay, even reluctently during exams if you let them know it is influencing your decision on a school)

 

Whoever told you that the medical school is not supportive is completely bull****ting you. I have seen my friends receive support when ill both physically or mentally and they work hard to help you get back into the program after you have had the necessary time away to deal with other problems. They have bent over backwards when my friends have lost parents to death or had to deal with loved one's illnesses making the process a bit easier. If you have any doubt about how compassionate Toronto can be please call Diana from student services. She is the nicest person I have ever met in my entire life and I can truly say that honestly. She won an Order of Ontario a year or two ago and I know she deserves it.

 

As for a comparison of my friends how have been at other Ontario schools I would say yes they work harder then some schools (I have only known a few people at Western and Queens...but compared to friends at Mac, Ottawa and NOSM). That does not mean it is cut throat. There are a large number of study groups and there are only three marks (pass, fail, honours) and no quota on how many people can say have said marks. When entering residency you are not competeing with students from your school but with members from all schools. You can find the loners in the class, or rather the people you may not recognize after going there for 4 years, however they are few and probably can be found in any school.

 

Now that this sounded VERY pro Toronto I would like to happily say that my first choice is actually Queens. This has nothing to do with the quality of the education at either school as I am under the impression that both schools are excellent. I simply know that I would be more comfortable in a city the size of Kingston versus Toronto. Yet, Toronto is my second choice and they like many other schools in this country breed very good doctors. We are lucky in Canada that all the schools are excellent and we do not have to deal with a range of reputation of quality as much is evident in the United States.

 

Thanks for my 2 cents...which may in fact be much larger!

 

KMG

[bcgirl33]

Thanks KMG for your 2c. Thanks also, DD87. Frequent testing is something that is definitely worth thinking about! Does anyone else know more about this?

 

I DON'T want to start a turf-war or arguments about how UofT-is-the-best-so-shut-up. I totally respect the calibre of the med education at Toronto and think that students do graduate as very well-prepared individuals. That said... please don't get your pants in a twist b/c I am thinking about quality of life PLUS quality of education

[EllieGee]

I love UofT, I'm probably the most school spirited person you'll meet from there (Varsity cheerleader for 3 years, College Student Gov Pres!) and I'd probably go there just out of personal bias if they'd have me, although I wouldn't mind a change! That's beside the point though, I won't address that stuff, but I will say some interesting things I heard about Queen's!

 

1. They don't do dissections...ie no cadavers in first year at ALL, but you can (optionally) dissect in second year

2. Shorter clerkships, meaning you don't have as long to decide if you don't know what you want to specialize in, and you don't get as much exposure to different things even if you do know what you want).

 

Take these for what they're worth, they're things I heard from the first years there, and I know ALL schools in Canada are great. I'll be happy no matter where I get in!

[KMG007]

As to how often exams are I found they tended to be every six to ten weeks which is more frequent then Queens and on par with Ottawa (not sure about Western... I'm not pass the cut offs so have not looked at it). I do believe this means you probably have to study more frequently (at least according to the Queens students who only have exams at the end of the semester).

 

They do not give you much time off for exams. Somtimes none at all (where you are expected back at class in the afternoon) and other times where you have at most a day. So in that case, yes I imagine it is more difficult to study. Students at Queens told me that since they are covering more material they are given up to one week.

 

My friends have found it difficult but definetly doable (even the ones who had less science background because they graduated with different degress like arts or architecture).

[KMG007]

1. They don't do dissections...ie no cadavers in first year at ALL, but you can (optionally) dissect in second year

I could be mistaken on this but when I went to my Queens interview they told me in the first semester you spend a minimum of 3 hours in anatomy lab a week (which is much less then UofT) but optional for more. I too believe in anatomy from taking a full human dissection course in undergrad and learning so much.

 

2. Shorter clerkships, meaning you don't have as long to decide if you don't know what you want to specialize in, and you don't get as much exposure to different things even if you do know what you want).

When asked about the negatives about their school in my interview I mentioned the shorter clerkship and I was told that although pushed back that it was the same number of weeks. I have not verified this myself. I realize this is a huge issue as I have friends even at UofT trying to desperately figure out what they want to do (or rather they did until last Thursday). I guess you just have to make good use of your summers.

[EllieGee]

They have a lot of options for observerships, so there are definitely ways you can be exposed to options! I'm just saying what I heard from a first-year student, I haven't done much research about it myself. They MUST do anatomy in SOME way, just not cadavers?

 

I like Queen's too, it's definitely up there for me, but those things were like...hmmmm.....

[Guest begaster]

For the record, I find it kind of funny that we're discussing the pros and cons of schools we've yet to get into. Let's face it, until we hold multiple acceptances in our hands, this discussion is irrelevant.

[KMG007]

http://meds.queensu.ca/undergrad/student_information/student_evaluation/final_examinations/evaluation_schedules/phase_i_evaluation_schedule

 

I think you are expected to go in and see the cadavours as their is a bell ringer in phase I. Yes, we both agree that we both really like Queens and UofT. I have always figured I would go to UofT, but realize that I wanted more experiences outside of such a large city since I plan on living in northern Ontario.

[KMG007]

For the record, I find it kind of funny that we're discussing the pros and cons of schools we've yet to get into. Let's face it, until we hold multiple acceptances in our hands, this discussion is irrelevant.

 

True, but I would like to know my rank so I can quickly say yes or quickly say no so that someone else on the wait list can hear sooner. Yes, probably will not get more then one, but you never know...hey I do not even have a UofT interview yet...just hopeful since out of all the schools I applied to...8 ... it is my second choice.

[Guest begaster]

Different strokes, I suppose. I'm not even considering which school is my top choice, second choice, etc., until I see more than one acceptance. People on the waitlist can wait. That's why they have a list.

 

Of course, the genius that is me decided that applying to only three schools was a good idea. Oops.

[KMG007]

Different strokes, I suppose. I'm not even considering which school is my top choice, second choice, etc., until I see more than one acceptance. People on the waitlist can wait. That's why they have a list.

 

Of course, the genius that is me decided that applying to only three schools was a good idea. Oops.

 

I guess you did that because you already made yourself a list of which schools you like! I kind of needed to think about different schools and orders of where I would like to be as my BF has been applying to Carms lately and we needed to make his ranking...can't do a double match when one is going for undergrad MD!

[Jectin]

Firstly, let me emphasize that your education is what you make of it period. It will not matter what medical school you go to in the long run. People who take their education more seriously then others are likely to come out and become more serious physicians then others. This is not medical school dependent.

 

Having said that, different medical schools have different strengths. As you all know, they are not carbon copies of each other. These strengths are related to their resources, educators and curriculum. Some schools who have commitments to rural areas may go into primary care details of a topic more so than schools who do not. This is just the nature of the curriculum. Every medical school will teach you what you need to know, but how much detail is presented is a function of the curriculum and specific lecturer/educator. So you may cover something at UofT or Queens in more detail then we did at Western, but the same can be said about different topics.

 

As for UofT being harder then the rest of the medical schools, no one can really evaluate this on an objective basis. I will say that upon conversing with my undergraduate colleagues who were in the same program as me, the individuals who went to Queens and Western say that medical school is easier then undergraduate studies, and the individual who went to UofT said it is harder. Interpret that as you please.

 

UofT probably does really well on the MCCQE exams as can be said about other large schools like Montreal and UBC. The highest average score nationally varies year to year. Western had a year where they were the best, Montreal had a couple, UofT has their fair share. Once again, the variability is attributable to the type of students and not the medical school.

 

And to the person whose father passed away due to medical malpractice, my sincerest apologies. It can be disheartening when something like that happens but rest assured there are systems in place to make sure that there are minimal repeat cases with the reduction to no occurrences being the ultimate goal. This is dealt with on an individual case basis and should not be a source of frustration towards non UofT medical schools.

 

Long post I know, but had to drop my 2 cents in for the sake of postponing PCCIA work. All of you who come to Western next year or the years to come will understand in due time.

 

J

[EllieGee]

Let me just say I'd love to come anywhere (in case that wasn't clear), I just thought this sort of debate was kind of fun!! As many people are, I'm hoping for proximity to my family and bf, if any schools take me I'll be grateful. Realistically, if only one takes me, I'm going there no complaints. I applied to schools because they're great. Good luck everyone!!!

[Ollie]

For some reason this myth of competitiveness at UofT continues to exist, even though if you talk to an actual medical student they will tell you it's not true.

 

UofT was my only med school acceptance and I was quite anxious when I started because of "what I had heard" about it. I now only have a couple of months of med school left and I can say for sure that the best part of med school is my classmates! I moved to a city where I knew no one and instantly had a class full of amazing friends!

 

Yes there are always a couple of people who are a bit hardcore (which you will find anywhere), but overall the tone of the class is very supportive and friendly. Even in clerkship (actually especially in clerkship) people go out of their way to help each other out. It actually is very looked down upon by residents and staff when students try to make themselves look good at others' expense.

 

Some people think that we (UofT students) think our school is better than everywhere else. This is definitely not the case, and if you want to go to UofT because you think it's the best and somehow makes you superior, then please rethink your decision. I think UofT is an excellent school and that I have received a great education, but I certainly don't think it is any better than anywhere else, nor do I wear a badge of honour because my school is "tougher". If anything I would say that our clerkship is easier than a number of schools.

 

At UofT you will find diverse, happy, friendly students, just as you will find at all medical schools.

 

Edit:

Regarding exams, in first year, they are about every 4 weeks, in second year they are every 5-7 weeks. They are non-cumulative so even though you are tested more often, you have less material to study than if you just have exams 2-3 times per year. In clerkship there are exams at the end of every core rotation, which is every six weeks, and none when you are on elective (which means you go several months with no exams during elective blocks).

[bayervillager]

Just to clear up the clerkships at Queen's thing even though it's been covered on the boards a lot already: We have the same length of time in clerkship as all the other school's. What is different is the timing - we have Phase I in 1st semester of 1st year, which teaches anatomy, pharmacology, biochemistry, pathology etc. at a really fast pace to ensure that everybody has the same knowledge after 4 months. Consequently, clerkship starts in 2nd semester of 3rd year and ends at graduation. What the other schools do is to start clerkship in the 1st semester of 3rd year, but stop clerkship one semester/phase/whatever they choose to call it before graduation for review purposes.

 

I don't think having clerkship later affects your ability to decide on a specialty at all. I would say that most people are not waiting until clerkship to decide what specialties they are going to put down at CARMS time. Ideally, they would have decided that earlier in order to fit in research/extra-curricular/observership experience in the specialty/specialties of their choosing prior to starting clerkship to make themselves more competitive applicants for the residency match.

 

Anyways, good luck with the application process, and I hope that everyone will consider Queen's

[EllieGee]

Thanks for your help, bayervillager! Sounds like I heard wrong.

[0T6]

slowly but surely - first of all, condolences regarding your father - medical errors are devastating and i'm sorry you've had to feel it at such a personal level.

 

that said - did you look at what school the treating physician went to? have you gone through 'dialogues', and looked at the CPSO to see which school the defendants went to? Have you contacted the CMPA and asked them if there are statistics on which school's graduates are over represented in malpractice cases? if you can say that you have, and you've found UT to be globally underrepresented in malpractice/unprofessionalism - then I think you're opinions are well founded.

 

IF you haven't done any of that - I think it's poor judgement of you to generalize, assume, and belittle the way you did in your post.

 

"stats are stats: U of T med graduates score best on the MD exams"

Can you cite or refer to these stats?

[KMG007]

I have a cold and could not sleep...decided to serve the net for awhile.

 

bayervillager, thanks for letting me know about clerkship stuff. I was told that in my interview so I thought it was probably right.

 

Also thanks to Ollie as I was thinking exams were further apart then they were. They seemed frequent but I did not realize how frequent. Students did always seem to appreciate the noncumulative aspect.

 

Thanks to the OT6 now in Ottawa. I have a friend in 3rd year, 2nd year and 1st year at Ottawa and they are all enjoying it. I unfortunately had a 3.83 (Ottawa style) while you need a 3.85, with the bf most likely to be starting internal residency based out of Ottawa and North Eastern Ontario that was disappointing...but I guess we will have to wait and see what the black box says he is matched to. One interesting point my friend in 3rd year made is that for their clerkship it is every two core rotations that they have an exam. She said she enjoyed that length of time after having exams about every six weeks in year 1 and 2.

 

Yeah, sounds like the schools are all similar, just a few things here and there that seem to really sell them each to different students.