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Going to Med School in Australia or somewhere in Canada.


Guest driedcaribou

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Guest driedcaribou

If you had a choice between going to Med School in Australia and a Med School in Canada, which would you pick and why?

 

Although it seems obvious that staying in Canada is the way to go if you want to practice in Canada, would the experience in Australia outweigh the complications further down the road?

 

Also, if you're attending a Med School out of your home province, you'd still have to move.

 

Another factor would be what if you and some friends all got into a school in Australia and you could all go to the same school, study together etc... which would make school 'easier' so to speak because you have an emotional support network whereas if you moved to somewhere else in Canada, you wouldn't get that.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

And does anyone know someone who finished a residency overseas and came back to practice in Canada sucessfully?

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Guest redshifteffect

For someone that has come back to Canada see:

http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/article13.htm

 

The question that you ask doesn't really have an answer. If you asked an Australian they would say their schools are among the best, the education is cheaper and the competition is probably tougher than those in Canadian schools.

 

If you asked a Canadian they would say the exact same thing - people just don't want to leave their country. For whatever reason they haven't really "experiened" (and I don't mean travelling..i mean living in) the other country. So they would rather assume that the country they are in the best one, and that they were lucky to get in.

 

If you are an Australian doctor there is no doubt in my mind that the pay here is double or in some cases triple that of a Canadian doctor. The life is also very relaxed and the workload is less. There is more respect for doctors here and less problems with litigation (though that is changing).

 

Unfortunately there is no such thing as a "better" degree in Canada. If you were to ask the Carms people they would tell you that they have their hands tied. The foreign docs graduating from less prestigious med schools have sued the gov't many times for discriminating against them and the gov't has lost. So you will still have to go through the Carms and write the MCCEE.

 

As I have said to be 100% equal to your peers your best choice is to stay in Australia. There is no discrimination against you since you have completed their degree.

 

Forget about your "friends" chances are you will never see them even if they attend the same school as you. Med school is very hectic, and it is highly unlikely that you will have much time to see them. Also what are the chances of all of you getting in the same school, and of all of them wanting to dish out that much money? You also run the risk of making it harder for yourself in terms of staying. The more of you there is the less chance you will have of staying here. So its not a very wise idea to bring a boat load of other Canadians with you.

 

If you really need an emotional support network make friends here - Aussies and Internationals are really no different to Canadians.

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Guest LestatZinnie

from many sources i have read there is near zero chance of working in canada if you go to one of those carribean or australian med schools.

 

the friends i know who go abroad do so as a last resort- if they could have gotten in canadian schools they would have stayed.

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Guest driedcaribou

> For someone that has come back to Canada see:

> http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/article13.htm

 

Thank you for the article.

 

> The question that you ask doesn't really have an

> answer.

 

Yes it does have an answer. It has multiple answers and I was asking for opinions. There is no right or wrong answer.

 

> If you asked an Australian they would say their

> schools are among the best, the education is cheaper

> and the competition is probably tougher than those in > Canadian schools.

 

How could you ask and Australian to compare when the majority of them have never attended post secondary education in North America? You could not possibly compare your current education with any undergraduate program in North America because you have entered directly from High School.

One could even argue that Australian school are 'easier' in a sense that they have more humane breaks throughout the year whereas Canadian schools don't get a week off every so often.

 

> So they would rather assume that the country they

> are in the best one, and that they were lucky to get

> in.

 

I disagree with the notion that those in their own country would consider their own medical school the best one. Many students are aware that other medical schools could be 'better' but it is a myriad of factors that prevent them from going to those other schools.

It's not as simple as you make it sound. Older applicants have many ties to their home town. They may hold positions that contribute to their community. They may have developed strong ties with people. They may hold certain certifications that would be invalid if they moved out of their home.

It's harder for you to understand because you left home right out of high school. You did not have time to build the same amount of attachment to a place that say a 35 year-old would.

 

 

> If you are an Australian doctor there is no doubt in my > mind that the pay here is double or in some cases

> triple that of a Canadian doctor. The life is also very

> relaxed and the workload is less. There is more respect > for doctors here and less problems with litigation

> (though that is changing).

 

I would like to see some information with regards to doctor's salaries. With respect to whether or not their life is more relaxed I would also like to see some links with regards to average hours worked.

Did you know that if you attend as an International Student and obtain your degree it is TEN points off your immigration?

 

> Unfortunately there is no such thing as a "better"

> degree in Canada.

 

You are completely hung up over the 'better degree' viewpoint where I didn't even mention it at all.

It always sounds like you are trying to justify and support your decision to move down under to practice.

 

I have never ever heard anything negative from you in terms of practicing in Australia. You almost sound like you're being paid to tell people to go down there. Your points would be a lot stronger and believable if you actually gave the negatives of practicing in Australia.

It seems like every post you make implicitly says 'Why would anybody practice in Canada if they could practice in Australia?'.

 

> As I have said to be 100% equal to your peers your

> best choice is to stay in Australia.

 

That is true. However, if you still have to do a residency in the country you want to practice in, I do not understand why the stigma would be so great.

 

> Forget about your "friends" chances are you will never > see them even if they attend the same school as you.

 

What if you've already found out you're at the same school?

It was more of a food for thought question to see what people value.

i.e. If you and a spouse were accepted into the same medical school in Australia but only one of you were accepted into a school in Canada, would you both go to Australia or would you stay in Canada.

 

> You also run the risk of making it harder for yourself in > terms of staying. The more of you there is the less

> chance you will have of staying here.

 

I don't understand that point.

 

> If you really need an emotional support network make > friends here - Aussies and Internationals are really no > different to Canadians.

 

Family will always be there for you. You can choose friends but not family.

Also, what kind of friendships are you talking about?

I'm talking about the friendships that are strong and built over time. Friends that you can depend on completely.

You can't just make close friends in the span of a few weeks. Not only that, you mention yourself that Med School is very hectic. How can you manage this hectic life when you're rooming with 4 strangers who all have their own peculiar habits? What do you do when you feel lonely all of a sudden and wonder why on Earth you're on the opposite side of the planet from everyone you love? Are you going to be able to make the kind of friends that you can confide in after 2 months?

 

I do like reading your points and you have been very helpful to those of us who are interested in going overseas but you have to realize that you write with a strong bias. You seem to trivialize the issue because you've already made your choice and it was the right one for you (or so it seems so far).

 

Those of us who have spent a significant amount of time in Canada need to know more before they jump ship.

 

 

 

 

LestatZinnie: Almost everyone I know thinks about going overseas as a last resort.. it boils down to how badly you want to be a doctor...

Way of life is very important.

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Guest LestatZinnie

i agree with you that 99% of the people go abroad as a last resort. it is also true that one must weigh the benefits of going abroad wisely since it would be virtually impossible to work as a physician in canada.

 

immigration is a big deal- especially if you're going all the way to australia, which is culturally quite different from the US (where you'll work if you went to carribean school). I just moved to another province for dental school and already i'm homesick. Imagine the change of moving to another country!!My family was going to immigrate to australia but decided against it in the end due to the prevalence and openess of racial discrimination in that country. therefore cultural/social factors are also very important too in deciding where you want to spend the rest of your life :D

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Guest redshifteffect

When I said your answer did have any answer I meant that I doubt you will be able to get the answer you are looking for. It would seem to me that you're trying to see that if you and a bunch of your friends to go to Australia would it be better than going to school in Canada. Of all the people I have spoken to here none are in that situation - hence no answer.

 

 

 

> If you asked an Australian they would say their

> schools are among the best, the education is cheaper

> and the competition is probably tougher than those in > Canadian schools.

 

>How could you ask and Australian to compare when the >majority of them have never attended post secondary >education in North America? You could not possibly >compare your current education with any >undergraduate program in North America because you >have entered directly from High School.

>One could even argue that Australian school are 'easier' >in a sense that they have more humane breaks >throughout the year whereas Canadian schools don't >get a week off every so often.

 

1) My point was that no Canadian can compare an Australian school to a Canadian school, and no Australian can do the same. If you asked either one of them though they would naturally say their school is best. I'm not trying to defend one school or the other, what I'm trying to say is that if you really want to know if attending one school or not would be more advantagous for you (ie in practicing in Canada or in terms of experience) then again there is no answer to that question, since everyone would be biased in there own way. So the only think it boils down to is where do you want to end up? I wouldn't say that Australian schools are any "easier" because as far as I'm aware I have roughly the same amount of breaks as my friends attending Uni in Canada.

 

 

>I disagree with the notion that those in their own >country would consider their own medical school the >best one. Many students are aware that other medical >schools could be 'better' but it is a myriad of factors >that prevent them from going to those other schools.

>It's not as simple as you make it sound. Older >applicants >have many ties to their home town. They >may hold >positions that contribute to their >community. They may >have developed strong ties >with people. They may hold >certain certifications that >would be invalid if they moved >out of their home.

>It's harder for you to understand because you left ?>home >right out of high school. You did not have time >to build >the same amount of attachment to a place >that say a >35 year-old would.

 

I don't know about you, but a lot of my friends who are attending U of T for medicine or Wayne State in detroit were arguing with each other that their schools are better. As far as I can see all Western schools essentially have the same style of teaching and cover the same material. Quite the contrary, I understand quite well. I have close ties to my family - who I've had to leave behind. I've I've made it sound easy than I apologize - it's not easy to leave people behind. However at the end of the day it depends on whether or not your doing what you enjoy. If your not then no matter how many close ties you have you still won't be happy. I also have a very strong attachment to Canada and to my home - it's definately a great place to live. The only point I'm trying to make is that after living in a place for more than a couple of years you get attached to it. Most people don't realize that there is a whole world out there other than Canada and the US that they would be equally comfortable living in.

 

 

 

>I would like to see some information with regards to >doctor's salaries. With respect to whether or not their >life is more relaxed I would also like to see some links >with regards to average hours worked.

>Did you know that if you attend as an International >Student and obtain your degree it is TEN points off >your immigration?

 

As I have said 100s of X. If you plan a head that 10 points is nothing. All you have to do is go to school in a rural area. They give you an extra 5 points for this. If you have some job related experience which you will have if you get your internship that's another couple of points. So the 10 points is only a problem for people that attend schools in the big cities ie Sydney.

 

As for salaries, the best thing for you to do is to call a doctor. However I have found this website www.theage.com.au/article...40360.html

Most GP's here charge about $50 per consultation but there are some that bulk bill ($30 now not $25) which means the gov't pays that portion. So say on average you get $40 per patient. You say an average of 30 patients per day for 5 1/2 days. That works out to be 6600 per week. If you work for 48 weeks that equals 316 800. This is a bit misleading though because there are overhead costs with being a doctor. The point is there are no caps on your salary unlike in Ontario.

 

 

>You are completely hung up over the 'better degree' >viewpoint where I didn't even mention it at all.

>It always sounds like you are trying to justify and >support your decision to move down under to practice.

 

I'm not "hung" up on this degree thing. I'm just trying to say that there is no "special treatment" for Australian doctors unless you have already qualified there. Then you will not have a hard time getting your license to practice in Newfoundland and Manitoba. They will even give you a temporary license while you take their tests - but thats a bit of a catch 22 because if you're qualified in Australia why would you want to come back? Honestly after spending 10 + years there it will be your home. Also Australian training programs are longer than their Canadian equivalents so you will not have the same licensing problems as some American post grad programs (ie Internal med)

 

>I have never ever heard anything negative from you in >terms of practicing in Australia. You almost sound like >you're being paid to tell people to go down there. Your >points would be a lot stronger and believable if you >actually gave the negatives of practicing in Australia.

>It seems like every post you make implicitly says 'Why >would anybody practice in Canada if they could >practice in Australia?'.

 

I'm not trying to convince people to come here. I just don't want people to give up on their dreams. LOL I'm not being paid to tell one this, in fact I have to pay to tell you this info! (ie internet connection). If I seem biased honestly I'm not. I'm just trying to get some solid facts out there, I try and back most of what I say up with either first hand accounts or links whenever possible.

 

I have never said anything would be easy. My main point was to try and give people information on how to study here with the PR status. That was ONLY for people that were ALREADY thinking about coming here, or thinking of staying once they were here. People are constantly posting that they think getting the PR is impossible and that they will lose their position, again that's due to improper planning. I've been here two years and I've seen the system for myself. I'll chalk it up to people being afraid of losing their spot - fair enough so I thought I would provide help. I was just trying to provide useful information that I did not have when I came here.

As for "bad points" about the medical system here:

1) You have to do an intern year after graduation after this you can apply for a residency position

2) The residency positions are a lot longer

 

'Why >would anybody practice in Canada if they could >practice in Australia?'.

 

All I'm saying is that people simply don't realize what the life of doctors is like in other countries. If you do come here I would be delighted to see your posts on the position of doctors here as compared to North America.

 

 

>That is true. However, if you still have to do a >residency in the country you want to practice in, I do >not understand why the stigma would be so great.

 

This is assuming you get the residency you want. As others have pointed out you might not even want a family practice or Internal med residency. In the end if you have to do something you don't want what was the point of coming this far?

 

 

> You also run the risk of making it harder for yourself in > terms of staying. The more of you there is the less

> chance you will have of staying here.

 

There's only so many internships spots out there. The more Canadians that come here (that intend on staying) the more difficult it becomes to obtain a residency spot. So even though it's against my interests to post all these messages I just want to help anyone out that needs it.

 

I understand your point on the friends. It won't be easy but I never said it would. The way I see it I only get to see my family one less time in a year than some of my friends do who are studying 4+ hours from home, and they study in the same province! I'm not saying it will be easy to leave your friends and family behind, but I'm sure you can make very strong friendships here. As I said you would be surprised at the kind of people you will find here. Not only are they more open but they are definately more understanding - but maybe that's because I'm not in a big city. If you really want to do medicine then there have to be some scarifices. When I came here it was the first time I'd left home and the first time I'd gone to University and the first time I was by myself, if anything I think I'd understand more than anyone. But you will adapt over time and soon you might even like it there...I don't know.

 

 

 

 

 

LestatZinnie: Almost everyone I know thinks about going overseas as a last resort.. it boils down to how badly you want to be a doctor...

Way of life is very important.

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Guest redshifteffect

Lestatzinnie

 

1) as a doctor from the Caribbean you will out be able to practice in Australia...let alone as a doctor from the US, Canada or the UK (the system here is even tougher to get into than Canada)

 

2) The culture here is surprisingly similar to Canada

 

3) What's this about racism? I've been living here for two years, and I have no clue where you got this idea about "openess of racism"...if you're referring to Pauline Hanson -she's in jail.

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Guest Kirsteen

Hi there,

 

Racism might not be overt (at least not toward folks other than the Australian aboriginal people), but a balance of skin colours in the general public certainly is not apparent. In that regard, Sydney, as well as Perth, Brisbane, Surfer's Paradise, Airlie Beach, Townsville, Cairns and Port Douglas reminded me a lot of Scotland--very white and not very much like part of Canada called Toronto, at least.

 

In stating the above, I'm not knocking the Australian people--from my experience, on the whole they are wonderfully warm.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

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Guest redshifteffect

Kirsteen,

 

Even in terms of the aborigines, I think the Australian's have a lot of respect for them. I know a lot more about them in the 2 years hear than I do about Native Americans.

 

Also your information about Sydney/Melbourne is incorrect! Melbourne has the seconded biggest Sri Lankan and Greek populations in the world after Colombo and Athens respectively! Thus there are more than a 1 mill. Sri Lankans' in melbourne a lone (in a city of about 2-3 million!)....so maybe you only saw white people because you did not venture into the suburbs.

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Guest Kirsteen

Hi there,

 

Being aware of something is not equivalent to respect for it. :) Australians, unlike New Zealanders, have been said to be much closer to Canadians in terms of how they have treated their indigenous peoples over the years. Maori peoples seem to command more respect than do Canadian or Australian Aboriginal peoples. From my own experiences living in Australia, and during my visit last month, things do not seem to have changed. (Were you aware that white people were arrested in Australia for buying beers for Aboriginal folks in bars?)

 

I have never been to Melbourne and thus, did not make any comments about the city and its cultural composition. I do, however, stand by my assertions re: the other Australian cities that I mentioned. Australia remains very Anglo in parts (even some of the suburbs, which I have, in fact, visited). Sorry.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

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Guest Kirsteen

This one almost slipped my mind... Let's not forget the trade embargo that was lodged by Australia against your current home (Tasmania) when the Tazzies were persecuting homosexual males for practicing consensual anal sex in the comfort and privacy of their own homes. Australia is not Canada.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

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Guest redshifteffect

But toronto is very anglo is parts as well. the difference is that in Australia most of the various ethnic groups tend to stick to the suburbs....so even in sydney in the CBD you would find very few "ethnic" minorities...however if you travel out into the suburbs you will find that is where the majority of minorities can be found.

 

As for your comment about the treatment of Aboriginies there is no doubt that the New Zealanders have more respect for there native peoples. But did you know in Canada that if you were a Native person you were separated from your family and dragged hundreds of miles a way and raised as a Christian?

 

I doubt very much that Canada and Australia and most other western countries treated their natives any differently...the point is that now most of them are trying to make amends.

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Guest LestatZinnie

hi i did not expect to spark off such a heated debate.

 

my statement comes from the testimonies many family friends who have immigrated to australia. that was 5, 10 years ago and whether their views towards asian immigrants have changed substantially during this period, i do not know.

 

hope there was no misunderstanding and that no one is offended;)

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Guest redshifteffect

If I'm correct aren't Homosexuals band from entering the US (if they were married in Canada) ? So in that sense Australia isn't the US either.

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Guest Kirsteen

Hi there,

 

Sorry, but I am not meaning to touch nerves here. No matter how we look at it, living, being educated, and being a doctor in Australia is not like living, being educated and being a doctor in Canada, which was the point that I was originally trying to highlight. Australia and Canada are both great places to live, be educated and be doctors and each country has its distinct characteristics. I don't follow your points re: the US or racial profiling, but I'm happy to leave this discussion where it is. :)

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

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Guest redshifteffect

I'm not trying to offend anyone either...it's just that there were two things which I didn't follow on our Gay rights post.

 

1) Tasmania is a rural state with a very small and semi right wing population. If you look at provinces like Manitoba and Saskatchewan I doubt they would have favourable opinions about Gays, but Australia as a whole boycotted Tasmania for that, which I doubt Canada would do to one of its provinces.

 

2) Also how would being a doctor in Australia be different than being a doctor in Canada? In regards to ethnicity there are quite a diverse population not only in Hobart but on the mainland as well...

 

I'm just trying to get a general debate comparing the two different lifestyles for the doctors here and there. Some of my family members are doctors in Canada, and I've very actively observed doctors here, and asked a lot of questions. So all I'm trying to do is point out what I've learned....if anyone has learned otherwise I would be happy to hear their point of view.

 

But as I said from what I've seen other than a few differences in terms of little things (ie plastic coated money vs. paper coated money) Australia and Canada are very similar.

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Guest redshifteffect

This is a little off topic but I've recently found someone who studied at Flinders and who is more than willing to answer any questions.

 

Her name is Kimberli Cox and she's currently doing her PGY1 training in General Surg @ Penn state.

 

 

 

- Ian you are absolutely correct I shouldn't have posted that email address. If anyone would like her email addy please contact me personally she doesn't mind answering any questions.

 

 

 

 

 

I edited out the email address because I don't think it's appropriate to post someone else's email address on a public forum without their permission. She posts regularly on the Studentdoctor.net forums. -Ian

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Guest driedcaribou

I wrote a huge reply and it got deleting so excuse me if this reply isn't as refined as it could be. :)

 

redshifteffect: Thank you again for the reply.

 

At first I didn't know why you kept mentioning the quality of education until I re-read my first post and realized that we have a bit of a misunderstanding.

 

When I wrote, 'Although it seems obvious that staying in Canada is the way to go if you want to practice in Canada, would the experience in Australia outweigh the complications further down the road? '

The type of experience I meant was life experience and the experience of living in a foreign country and not medical training.

 

I find it childish for people to bicker about whose school is better... it boils down to a sense of pride that some people seem to need because to say 'I went to a tough school' could allow them to say 'therefore I'm a better doctor' when in the end, it's really the individual and not the school.

 

I was trying to mention that I find a stigma against all foreign doctors by their peers a little silly considering the fact that if those foreign doctors have to take the same residencies the local doctors do, it means they would end up with the same training. I also don't see how the human body would differ on different continents though I can see how protocols can differ as well as methods and standards.

 

I appreciate the fact that you post here with a lot of detailed information to give people. I just want to avoid a confirmation bias effect so I just need to hear more drawbacks because your portrayal of Australia really makes it sound really good.. to the point where it seems like it would be the perfect decision. You say you aren't biased but I argue that everyone has a bias. You are obviously pro-Australia because that is your choice and the choice you have to live with. There is nothing wrong with that but I would like to see more opinions that go along the lines of 'wait for Canada' or 'find a new career' because it is not worth coming to Australia.

I read someone on http://www.studentdoctor.net who was complaining about Australian medical schools but I could not bring myself to believe him because he was 100% against it.

It's hard to believe something when there's no balance to the points presented.

 

 

 

 

Now with 10+ years in another country... it may only end up being a home where you end up keeping your stuff but not the home where your heart is.

 

It's harder to change when you're older which makes the whole move issue harder.

 

I have talked to some doctors who have immigrated to Canada from other countries and doctors in China (not Hong Kong) and Russia really get compensated poorly.

Also, just hearing about the amount of lawsuits in the US makes it sound like practicing there isn't worth it.

But in terms of the fact that Australians respect their medical doctors more than Canadians do of their own I can't quite buy until I meet more Australians.

 

I have heard issues regarding racism in Australia but I have also heard that it has gotten better over the years. I have heard of negative treatment against Asians etc. but I would think this behaviour would be no different than Canada in the early 80s before the influx of immigrants.

As for the racism against the Australian Aboriginals, I'd have to say Canada itself is extremely racist against their own natives.

 

I wonder, if you finish your residency in Australia and become a specialist, would you have an easier time in practicing in that specialty in a different country? Would you only have to take an exam directly from the specialty you're applying for?

 

 

Finally, most people would not be so apt to volunteer their time to help others and I thank you for all the information you've provided to everyone.

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Guest redshifteffect

Dried Caribou,

 

I only help everyone because I honestly understand the position they're in..it's a scary choice to come to another country and try and eek out a future career without any guarantee....

 

I can't guarantee anything, but I think that the future does look bright if you have a little bit of planning. Everyone I have known that has gone to the caribbean has gotten a residency within the USA. As I have said they are not doing cardiology or dermatolgy but they are practicing medicine. If you do a speciality in family practice you will be able to get a conditional license in Manitoba. I have seen so in their website and contacted them myself. The family practice residency in the US is 3 years, not 2 like in Canada, so it is recognized in some provinces. After you complete the manitoba licensing exams you will be granted a license their and you can attempt to work your way back to Ontario if that is what you wish.

 

If you are interested in the health professions but not only in medicine why not look into Optometry. I have found out that there are two programs that are really good in Australia one in Sydney and one in Melbourne that are 4 and 5 years respectively. To get back into Canada (Ontario is the only province that will recognize this at the current time) you will have to get your course evaluated by the optometry college of ontario, and if they deem it appropriate they will allow you to sit their exam, after which you are eligible to practice optometry - no questions asked no residency.

 

There are also no PR problems with this as you get 60 points for this and everyone will find a job after they graduate in Australia if they chose to stay.

 

When I say that your best option is to stay in Australia, I'm not neccessarily saying permenantly I mean mainly for residency training. However the likeihood of leaving this place after becoming established and trying to start over again may not be that high...

 

The forum that you mention above on the studnet doctor network if I'm thinking about the same one was insulting Flinders correct? As I said, why not ask Kimberli Cox yourself, she graduated from there and she's in the US now.

 

Australia isn't perfect in the sense that you are leaving your home and your friends behind - and you may never return. That is a major problem right there. Its is good in the sense that IF you get to stay you will have a good life as a doctor, no doubt about it. The big IF is will you get that PR...and I can't guarantee that you will.

 

In terms of racism honestly there are so many chinese malaysians here, even more than Waterloo, the school I was gonig to attend. That's in Hobart which I doubt most you will be attending, but in Melbourne and even Sydney I have seen a lot of different cultures. I dont' exactly have a "racism" meter but I can honestly say that I haven't felt any racism here that I wouldn't have felt in Canada (where in lived).

 

Dried Caribou honestly in the end if you get into a Canadian univerisity you should stay. The cultural experience that you can get from Australia is definately not worth the effort you will have to put in to return to Canada. Unless you are willing to possibly forgo Canada at least for some time the loss of your family and friends may be too much. Maybe you are right, for me this may not be as much of a problem as for someone else.

 

Best of luck!

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