U of T or McGill

[PlnA]

I know U of T decisions are not out yet. But I have already been accepted at McGill. I did my undergraduate here and I am really tempted to stay here for medicine.

 

However, Toronto is where my parents live now and I am very torn between the two if it turns out that I have two choices.

 

I understand that they are both great schools and offer excellent education and U of T is more research-oriented with intentions to turn their students into research-scientists. I have done a lot of research and I haven't not set my mind to pursue further yet. I also heard that U of T is great for kids who have strong network of support and ability to prioritize and figure our their own preferences, does this mean a less personal education?

 

McGill is great because I know my ways around the department but U of T is tempting because it's in the city where I would like to end up in if I choose to stay in Canada.

 

I am looking for suggestions. If you are at either McGill or U of T or know a lot about the school. Please let me know what you think.

 

Thank you!

[Ollie]

U of T is more research-oriented with intentions to turn their students into research-scientists.... I also heard that U of T is great for kids who have strong network of support and ability to prioritize and figure our their own preferences, does this mean a less personal education?

 

If these are going to be factors in your decision, then I suggest you do a bit more research into UofT. (Have you talked to students at you interview?)

 

UofT does have very strong research opportunities, but by no means is their mandate to train all their students to become clinician scientists. I actually just had a conversation with the undergrad dean about this. This year, about 30% of our class matched to family medicine, and the faculty was really happy about this. Yes probably a larger proportion of UofT grads end up in academic medicine, but I think that is just because that's what we train in and what we know rather than any specific effort by the faculty.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "have strong network of support and ability to prioritize and figure our their own preferences". Every medical school puts a huge emphasis on self-directed learning. In terms of support from the faculty, there is plenty. There is a full-time career counselor and always a lot of help for making contacts for shadowing and setting up electives. Pretty much any question you have you can go talk to Student Affairs and they will point you in the right direction.

 

Ultimately, if you do get 2 acceptances, you should pick the city you think you would be happiest in. I have never heard anyone say that they dislike their medical school, and you will get a quality education anywhere.

[MD1400]

I would choose McGill (in fact I have already):

 

1. My impression is that McGill has a better international reputation (this is consistently backed up by rankings- ie Gourman Report). Ask someone outside Canada what U of T is and it's the university in Toronto. McGill on the other hand, is well known and a residency or fellowship at an Ivy League institution or something would be more likely perhaps coming from McGill. I'm not saying you couldn't do this from U of T. (Some people may not even care about this)

 

2. McGill was the first medical school in Canada and well known for its innovation - ie in education or something like the McGill Medical Journal (U of T has one too, but it came later). Not to mention the rich tradition and support from alumni.

 

3. At McGill you get to do Physicianship and a Physician Apprenticeship in every year which is quite unlike any other medical school, not to mention any observerships you would like to do. I understand U of T has the Art and Science of Medicine, but it is only 4 hrs a week.

 

4. The facilities at McGill are way better. The medical simulation centre is state of the art and does not compare to anything U of T has. In terms of hospitals they are both comparable, although McGill has a greater quanitity with greater specialization eg. the Montreal Chest institute. Not to mention some students at U of T will go to Mississauga and get their classes broadcast.

 

5. Tuition. If you are an OOP it will cost approx $40 000 less to attend McGill over 4 years. If you are in province (where you pay something like $4000 a year) the disparity in tuition would make you choose McGill in a heartbeat.

 

6. Montreal is a great city! But this is up for debate and based on personal preference.

 

7. A cool M.D., C.M. degree from McGill, not that this matters, but ever notice how some of the most accomplished physicians have this degree, like chairs of departments at medical schools across Canada

 

In the end, both schools are great and you will still be a doctor after you graduate

[PlnA]

Hey Alpine, my interview is this weekend. I was considering not going up until recently.-just to explain this 'torn' thing a bit. They are both great schools and I don't presume anything about getting accepted at U of T.

 

 

 

I suggest you not make any assumptions and wait for May 15th. Each school has different admission criteria and acceptance at one does not imply the same in the other. Once U of T accepts you then you can ask this question.

[MD1400]

How about the surgical simulation at Mt. Sinai Hospital in Toronto to match the McGill one you're refering to? Also, I'm not sure how you can reach the conclusion of McGill having more hospitals and specialization cause UofT has 9affiliated hospitals and Toronto is a bigger city + more diverse too. As for financial issues, if you go to McGill as an OOP you won't be eligible for OSAP so that whole $40,000 will come from your pocket or bank credit, which you'll have to pay back entirely. On average UofT students receive ~$10,000 from OSAP + UofT financial aid which they don't have to pay back. Thus, it costs even less than $40,000 net UofT tuition + fees.

 

On another note, the downside to McGill is the 80 younger students and also the fact that the odds of getting in there are much higher for these students and the other IP applicants compared to OOP. At UofT everyone has an equal chance and they pick the best possible candidates regardless of residence.

 

As for reputation, I'm not sure why it would matter which school was created first. I might be wrong, but I think UPenn was the first med school in USA and not Harvard and today it's hard to argue that Harvard is not #1 over there.

 

For international reputation, I wouldn't go with hearsay, but look at statistics instead. As far as I know graduates from either school can match anywhere they wish depending on their individual competencies.

 

Oh...and it's soooo cold in Montreal during the winter!

 

I totally agree with Ollie in that you should pick schools by where you'd like to live. In Canada you'll get a quality education anywhere. I can tell you that there are graduates from just about any school in Ontario (Ottawa, Mac, Queens, Western, UofT, McGill) who have done specializations at Ivy leagues and are now doing really well with their careers. It's about the person and not the school. You shouldn't rely on your med school to get to where you want to go. It all depends on how capable, hardworking and how much you're willing to put into your career.

 

I'm not trying to say that UofT is a better choice than McGill, but I'm just trying to balance the previous post so you hear both sides of the story.

 

In terms of facilities I was refering to non-hospital ones, surgical simulation can be found at any hospital, the Jewish General Hospital in Montreal is comparable, if not better managed than Mt. Sinai (I've worked at both). I'm talking about the Medical Simulation Centre at McGill, there is nothing like this at U of T.

 

U of T financial aid is not that common, and neither is OSAP. I know that I would not qualify for either, so your argument is irrelevant for me and many others, and this doesn't mean that I'm wealthy.

 

I don't understand how younger students = downside? U of T may have even greater disparity in age if that's what your worried about.

 

Usually a school with a longer history is more well known (and this gives the rich tradition), but I agree this is not the only reason.

 

I quoted the Gourman report for the int'l reputation.

 

In terms of weather, Toronto is not cold?

[PlnA]

Thanks Alpine and MD1400 for your advice. I guess it really depends on which city one prefers. They are both great schools. (Congrats to MD1400 for McGill) My heart turns to McGill more because I know the faculty much better. But I think the ultimate thing is to see U of T on the tour. (and who knows, I may not even get in!) Makes life easier, but the ego...geez.

 

Thanks a lot, it is good to be reminded of the simulation centres. Exciting!

[MD1400]

Well good luck on the interview, try to see as much of Toronto as you can so you can make a decision if you have to.

 

If anything, you should be confident and relaxed at your U of T interview since you have McGill already if it doesn't work out.

[A-Stark]

Even for OOP students, McGill is still thousands of dollars cheaper per year than UofT (which is the most expensive school in the country!), and it certainly costs less to live in Montreal than it does to live in Toronto. Food for thought.

[Ollie]

U of T financial aid is not that common, and neither is OSAP. I know that I would not qualify for either, so your argument is irrelevant for me and many others, and this doesn't mean that I'm wealthy.

Unless you have significant savings, a really expensive car or you have been out of high school for <4 years then you should qualify for OSAP (or your home province's equivalent). I would say that the vast majority of students have student loans plus lines of credit. UofT is actually fantastic about financial aid. Everyone who has a student loan receives some financial aid. Their goal is to cover a certain percent of your "unmet need" as defined by OSAP (can't remember but it think it's like 30% or so, maybe even 50%). So if you are maxed on your student loan, you can usually count on about $5000-6000 in bursary per year. Additionally all Ontario students receive a $6000 stipend in 4th year (and this does not affect the amount of bursary you get). There is lobbying going on now to extend the stipend to 3rd year as well.

[Guest begaster]

The Gourman Report:

1. McGill University - 4.64

2. University of Toronto - 4.61

 

1) This is for the entire university, not just the medical school.

2) The difference between U of T and McGill is 0.03 of a point. UBC, sitting at 3rd, got a 4.22 - that's about 0.39 of a point less than U of T. Notice the large difference between 2nd and 3rd, versus the minuscule difference between first and second? Yeah.

 

Now then, let's counter that with the Academic Ranking of World Universities, which is cited consistently by the Economist and probably has the most validity of any ranking:

 

U of T -- 23rd place.

McGill -- 63rd place.

 

 

Whee, two rankings that aren't aligned.

 

Both schools are absolutely phenomenal. That's the bottom line. Wherever you go, you'll have a myriad of opportunities to network and succeed.

[MD1400]

Gourman Report for Med Schools:

 

McGill - 4.91/5

U of T - 4.86/5

 

Sure, not a big difference, but there is one

 

in terms of the academic rankings, that goes way beyond the scope of med schools, which is the topic here

 

I see your point, you're right, they are both amazing shools...just trying to defend my school next year in a U of T thread;)

[A-Stark]

Do NOT under any circumstances base your decision on abstract rankings or "objective" scores. When choosing where to spend the next four years of your life, things like location, size/structure of the program, costs, personal connections, etc. are the only things that matter.

[Ollie]

I see your point, you're right, they are both amazing shools...just trying to defend my school next year in a U of T thread;)

Which is why threads where people ask "should I go to school A or school B" are generally useless. Everyone from school A says awesome things about their school and same thing for school B. Which goes to prove my earlier point that pretty much everyone loves the school they are at, and you will get a great education anywhere, so you should go to the city you think you will be happiest in!

[Guest begaster]

Gourman Report for Med Schools:

 

McGill - 4.91/5

U of T - 4.86/5

 

Sure, not a big difference, but there is one

 

 

A non-significant difference is still non-significant.

 

I've got no problem with people posting good things about their own schools, I have a problem with people attacking other schools in the process.

[MD1400]

I wouldn't say attack is the right word

[Guest begaster]

Yeah, I think I was being a touch sensitive. My apologies.

[Kuantum]

Both sides points are well-taken. However, the biggest advantage about attending medical school in Canada is that you can't go wrong when it comes to medical education. UofT or McGill will give you the backing to get through medical school. Anything more than that rests on how motivated the individual is.

 

In all honesty, Canadian schools have a wicked reputation. If anything, McMaster probably has a better international reputation for it's medical education contributions. But that's besides the point.

 

You should be lucky that you can decide where to go to medical school based on lame things like which city has better restaurants or better looking guys/girls - I'll let you guys battle over that one.

[noncestvrai]

I think Mtl wins the battle of good looking girls and of course, we have a WAY better hockey team.

 

This is fact, and is significant

 

noncestvrai

[quintessence]

and of course, we have a WAY better hockey team.

 

This is fact, and is significant

 

noncestvrai

 

very true - but Toronto wins hands down on the restaurant front

[2much2do]

I'm a bit curious about the previous comment regarding OSAP out of province-- so far as I was aware you COULD take OSAP to McGill. It's listed as an approved school. Anyone actually have personal experience with that situation?

 

thanks tons,

[DD87]

 

I quoted the Gourman report for the int'l reputation.

 

 

I don't think this one report (which itself is questionable to begin with) can stand as irrefutable proof that one school has more 'international reputation' than another (as if this is something you can quantify)

[MD1400]

I never said it was irrefutable proof, I was just providing something other than my own impression

[bcgirl33]

ummmmm can someone just state the obvious and end this feud?

 

Montreal has better poutine. McGill wins.

[JJ1985]

You can get OSAP, I believe you are eligible for a bit less than if you stayed in Ontario but if you work out the difference already in tuition costs, I'm pretty sure McGill will still be a cheaper option for your medical degree.

 

I'm a bit curious about the previous comment regarding OSAP out of province-- so far as I was aware you COULD take OSAP to McGill. It's listed as an approved school. Anyone actually have personal experience with that situation?

 

thanks tons,

[2much2do]

awesome, thanks tons.