Why is MD considered more prestigious than PhD?

[DrJohn]

30 minutes ago, Pakoon said:

If you look through their post history you'll know that bearded frog has done more for CARMS stats than CARMS themselves, and is the leading expert on dropping those sick graphs and figures when no one else will . I'd wager they contributed enough. 

Wow, I left academia several years ago because I was tired of the politics, games and egos. I don't miss the Narcissistic and Antisocial Personalities, or those who can't respect farmers, sewer workers and others. And I live in the US where many can't afford health care or a university education. My initial response, and what caught my attention, was not about which doctorate was more prestigious, but the entire concept of elitism. Some people need to get over themselves (I hear there is a pill for that).

[indefatigable]

12 hours ago, DrJohn said:

Back in the mid-90's James Watson wrote an essay in Science or maybe Nature giving advice to those who wished to become scientists. He said that doing research  well on a topic you love is more than difficult enough.  It is much more difficult to do research well on a subject you aren't passionate about. If you aren't passionate about the subject you are a fool for getting a PhD.

If you get a doctorate mostly for the title, prestige or money, you have not earned my respect.  That being said, I am a scientist with a PhD. I prefer to be called by my first name. Nonetheless, in social situations where titles are appropriate I expect to be called Doctor, not Mister.  If a student, or anyone else, feels compelled to use my title I would respond in same using Mr. or Ms. or whatever they prefer (one might recall that throughout most of American history, especially in the South, African Americans were not addressed as Mr, Mrs, or Miss, when White people were - they were not given the same respect).

I'd caution about quoting James Watson - his reputation has declined severely based on his sexist and racist remarks and undoes much of what else you are trying to say.  

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/15/18182530/james-watson-racist

Some highlights:

[ stupidity is a disease to be abolished.] "The lower 10 per cent who really have difficulty, even in elementary school, what’s the cause of it? A lot of people would like to say, ‘Well, poverty, things like that.’ It probably isn’t. So I’d like to get rid of that, to help the lower 10 per cent."

“some anti-Semitism is justified.” He continued: “Just like some anti-Irish feeling is justified. If you can’t be criticized, that’s very dangerous.”

"There’s a difference on the average between blacks and whites in IQ tests, I would say the difference is genetic"

“People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great.”

[bearded frog]

21 hours ago, DrJohn said:

Looks like I struck a nerve with you frog.  I just stumbled on this thread on a goggle search. I thought I might offer some insight  I have known many good people with all types of doctorates. I have known others that are simply very good at playing the game, sadly for them, they are simply chasing someone else's dream. 

Do you actually have anything of value to contribute?

Lol, sorry i'm fresh out of Marx quotes.

PS MD is more prestigious to laypersons because they are more public facing, phds do valuable work for society but generally don't do things personally for people to impact their lives.

[GH0ST]

21 hours ago, DrJohn said:

Looks like I struck a nerve with you frog.  I just stumbled on this thread on a goggle search. I thought I might offer some insight  I have known many good people with all types of doctorates. I have known others that are simply very good at playing the game, sadly for them, they are simply chasing someone else's dream. 

Do you actually have anything of value to contribute?

 

49 minutes ago, bearded frog said:

Lol, sorry i'm fresh out of Marx quotes.

PS MD is more prestigious to laypersons because they are more public facing, phds do valuable work for society but generally don't do things personally for people to impact their lives.

Why did someone that's not from this forum and has no real history of contributing to premed101 come to this site to criticize the one individual that probably contributed to this site the most ... talk about getting triggered. 

Honestly though with residency, fellowships, and the fact that a significant portion of doctors get additional graduate degrees (Masters, PhD, etc)... I'd argue that's more than just doing a PhD. 

I have some additional thoughts on the practical implications as well as additional challenges with how narrow academia can become but I'll save that rhetoric for another day.

- G

[rmorelan]

10 hours ago, GH0ST said:

 

Why did someone that's not from this forum and has no real history of contributing to premed101 come to this site to criticize the one individual that probably contributed to this site the most ... talk about getting triggered. 

Honestly though with residency, fellowships, and the fact that a significant portion of doctors get additional graduate degrees (Masters, PhD, etc)... I'd argue that's more than just doing a PhD. 

I have some additional thoughts on the practical implications as well as additional challenges with how narrow academia can become but I'll save that rhetoric for another day.

- G

Not sure!

we welcome all discussion but not attacks of course. 

also really - this thread just won't stay dead ha. 

[indefatigable]

12 hours ago, GH0ST said:

Honestly though with residency, fellowships, and the fact that a significant portion of doctors get additional graduate degrees (Masters, PhD, etc)... I'd argue that's more than just doing a PhD. 

To be honest, I think this statement could be taken the wrong way.  

Some PhDs in clinical subjects are relatively "fast-tracked" and take much less time than a standard lab-based PhD (which sometimes can take 6-7+ years vs sometimes 2 or 3 during a MD).  There's nothing wrong with that - in fact, it probably helps keep some research areas alive and create clinician-scientists, but some PhDs can be brutal years of low-pay for very little reward (often would-be educated immigrants from other countries willing to work extraordinarily hard)

I think the whole subject of debate is kind of meaningless - but as a counter-example, PhDs in Germany are considered considerably more prestigious than MDs - majority of CEOs have PhDs, etc..  Much of "prestige" of MDs in Canada is based on the US system - i.e. high pay, selectivity, positive media portrayals.. German doctors are paid less and often leave for other countries meaning Germany imports a lot of foreign-trained doctors lowering the perceived "prestige" factor.  

[shikimate]

47 minutes ago, indefatigable said:

I think the whole subject of debate is kind of meaningless - but as a counter-example, PhDs in Germany are considered considerably more prestigious than MDs - majority of CEOs have PhDs, etc..  Much of "prestige" of MDs in Canada is based on the US system - i.e. high pay, selectivity, positive media portrayals.. German doctors are paid less and often leave for other countries meaning Germany imports a lot of foreign-trained doctors lowering the perceived "prestige" factor.  

Damn that's crazy, I thought UK, Spanish and Greek doctors were going to Germany because they pay much more there. I know NHS is going downhill but even the German system is not working out? Greece everyone knows is still in shambles lol. 

[MDee2B]

On 4/13/2021 at 7:13 PM, shikimate said:

Damn that's crazy, I thought UK, Spanish and Greek doctors were going to Germany because they pay much more there. I know NHS is going downhill but even the German system is not working out? Greece everyone knows is still in shambles lol. 

They’re going not for the wages (which are low for MDs compared to other countries, pretty much on par with teachers’ salary there); they’re going there for the overall better quality of life (better quality of education for their kids, healthcare, etc).

[zoxy]

1 hour ago, indefatigable said:

German doctors are paid less and often leave for other countries meaning Germany imports a lot of foreign-trained doctors lowering the perceived "prestige" factor.  

The country they leave for is Switzerland. American style remuneration with extremely low taxes. A couple making 500,000 CHF (680,000 CAD) would pay under 100,000 CHF in taxes in high tax (for Switzerland) Zurich. It's a beautiful country to boot with the Berner oberland, the Alps, all those lakes.

The Swiss only take the best of the German physicians though, it's not easy for a run of the mill German physician to get a job Switzerland.

[rmorelan]

10 hours ago, indefatigable said:

To be honest, I think this statement could be taken the wrong way.  

Some PhDs in clinical subjects are relatively "fast-tracked" and take much less time than a standard lab-based PhD (which sometimes can take 6-7+ years vs sometimes 2 or 3 during a MD).  There's nothing wrong with that - in fact, it probably helps keep some research areas alive and create clinician-scientists, but some PhDs can be brutal years of low-pay for very little reward (often would-be educated immigrants from other countries willing to work extraordinarily hard)

I think the whole subject of debate is kind of meaningless - but as a counter-example, PhDs in Germany are considered considerably more prestigious than MDs - majority of CEOs have PhDs, etc..  Much of "prestige" of MDs in Canada is based on the US system - i.e. high pay, selectivity, positive media portrayals.. German doctors are paid less and often leave for other countries meaning Germany imports a lot of foreign-trained doctors lowering the perceived "prestige" factor.  

that fast track in part is due to the md training acting like the comprehensive part of a normal phd - which kind of makes sense. The research part is still also sped up a bit as well - although to be fair phds are less time in Europe and in my opinion probably should be. It is a form of credential creep to require more and more training. What was already an extended 5 years is now what 6-7+ and then you have to do more post docs (often more than one)  to maybe advance etc, etc. Very much so debatable what the training post 5 years say is doing beyond what you would get by doing it for "real" as an academic. When does it become just years extra of low pay work to be benefit to your boss only. 

It is completely meaningless ha. I mean prestige is often related to the target audience even - and various groups will divide it out whatever way the want. You cannot even call yourself a what we would call a "doctor" in germany with what we would call a MD degree. It is more complex than that. Here it is a bigger deal, there it is less so. Maybe it is wrapped up in part with the pay being higher here. 

Debates about prestige do get boring pretty quickly in practise ha. Who are you even trying to impress? 

Edited April 14, 2021 by rmorelan

[zoxy]

1 minute ago, rmorelan said:

 You cannot even call yourself a what we would call a "doctor" in germany with what we would call a MD degree. It is more complex than that. 

Debates about prestige do get boring pretty quickly in practise ha. 

The Germans are title obsessed. If I ever become an academic, you can be damn sure I'll be putting Prof. Dr. on my Lufthansa boarding pass. Heck, I'll even make my mother call me that.

[rmorelan]

1 minute ago, zoxy said:

The Germans are title obsessed. If I ever become an academic, you can be damn sure I'll be putting Prof. Dr. on my Lufthansa boarding pass. Heck, I'll even make my mother call me that.

Ha - they are. When learning German half of it was getting titles right it seemed so I didn't insult someone. 

I am already running out of room to put all the letters after my name. I am not sure I want to be adding more in front. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by rmorelan

[zoxy]

17 minutes ago, rmorelan said:

Ha - they are. When learning German half of it was getting titles right it seemed so I didn't insult someone. 

I am already running out of room to put all the letters after my name. I am not sure I want to be adding more in front. 

Ah, but that way you can flex on critics and say: "I have 22 letters after my name, I'm not an idiot."

Of course, doing so may eventually exile you to Mississippi. Proceed at your own discretion.

[indefatigable]

1 hour ago, rmorelan said:

that fast track in part is due to the md training acting like the comprehensive part of a normal phd - which kind of makes sense. The research part is still also sped up a bit as well - although to be fair phds are less time in Europe and in my opinion probably should be. It is a form of credential creep to require more and more training. What was already an extended 5 years is now what 6-7+ and then you have to do more post docs (often more than one)  to maybe advance etc, etc. Very much so debatable what the training post 5 years say is doing beyond what you would get by doing it for "real" as an academic. When does it become just years extra of low pay work to be benefit of your boss. 

There's traditionally been a split in Europe between UK "colleges" that grant PhDs (or DPhils) in a shorter time and longer research-university German PhDs.  Harvard was founded along the British model; Johns Hopkins following the German approach.  

Clearly, there's been convergence - but I'd argue, as you suggest,  that the lengthier time for PhDs is more a function of "degree dilution" where PhD positions are coming closer to labour market "jobs" as opposed to "elite" apprenticeships* 

Post-docs are also generally more like "jobs" rather than extra qualifications; Germany is an exception where there is actually a formal post-PhD extra-qualification Habilitation for academia (more letters after the name haha).

Some disciplines have been smart about this - notably economics, where PhDs are pretty much "guaranteed" good positions in academia, government or industry (by controlling supply to some extent but also intrinsic demand).  Often it partly depends on the funding model - Economics is more department based (including teaching) as opposed to life-sciences where it is more "PI" based (and of course some "expectations").    

* which also now function to permit highly-skilled immigrants who are more likely to tolerate difficult job conditions in STEM disciplines especially.  Some argue that US competitiveness is going to decline as many Chinese nationals, notably, are now returning to China rather than face difficult immigration prospects and a "Bamboo" ceiling in the US.    

 

[indefatigable]

2 hours ago, zoxy said:

The country they leave for is Switzerland. American style remuneration with extremely low taxes. A couple making 500,000 CHF (680,000 CAD) would pay under 100,000 CHF in taxes in high tax (for Switzerland) Zurich. It's a beautiful country to boot with the Berner oberland, the Alps, all those lakes.

The Swiss only take the best of the German physicians though, it's not easy for a run of the mill German physician to get a job Switzerland.

2 hours ago, shikimate said:

Damn that's crazy, I thought UK, Spanish and Greek doctors were going to Germany because they pay much more there. I know NHS is going downhill but even the German system is not working out? Greece everyone knows is still in shambles lol. 

I agree that Switzerland is probably a "dream" destination.  

But, it's not "just" Switzerland - the US, UK and Sweden are also popular destinations.  It seems that it's mostly East Europeans that come in to replace the emigrating German doctors - there's still a net loss though (I'd imagine the language barrier would play a role).  Some Germans  doctors apparently also emigrate to Australian and New Zealand.    

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45346211_The_migration_of_doctors_to_and_from_Germany

2 hours ago, rmorelan said:

Ha - they are. When learning German half of it was getting titles right it seemed so I didn't insult someone.  

Complete tangent - native German speakers perform better on the IELTS academic than native English speakers haha (7.4 vs 6.9)!  More complicated language with similar roots probably..

https://www.ielts.org/for-researchers/test-statistics/test-taker-performance

 

[zoxy]

13 minutes ago, indefatigable said:

I agree that Switzerland is probably a "dream" destination.  

But, it's not "just" Switzerland - the US, UK and Sweden are also popular destinations.  It seems that it's mostly East Europeans that come in to replace the emigrating German doctors - there's still a net loss though (I'd imagine the language barrier would play a role).  Some Germans  doctors apparently also emigrate to Australian and New Zealand.   

 

Interesting.

I remember in a survey of practising physicians about their satisfaction with their healthcare system, German doctors were the second unhappiest after American physicians. I wonder how things have changed in the 12 years since that 2009 study.

Must be pretty grim conditions if they would even consider the UK. Although it must be said that the NHS of 2009 wasn't as bad as it is now. The Blair/Brown governments had thrown a lot of money at the NHS and George Osborne's brutal austerity of the 2010's hadn't been implemented.

In another study in 2018, they looked at where German doctors would like to emigrate too. Switzerland and Scandinavia were naturally the most popular(and in that order).

 

https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-018-3142-6

https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-018-3142-6/tables/8

[indefatigable]

9 minutes ago, zoxy said:

Interesting.

I remember in a survey of practising physicians about their satisfaction with their healthcare system, German doctors were the second unhappiest after American physicians. I wonder how things have changed in the 12 years since that 2009 study.

Must be pretty grim conditions if they would even consider the UK. Although it must be said that the NHS of 2009 wasn't as bad as it is now. The Blair/Brown governments had thrown a lot of money at the NHS and George Osborne's brutal austerity of the 2010's hadn't been implemented.

In another study in 2018, they looked at where German doctors would like to emigrate too. Switzerland and Scandinavia were naturally the most popular(and in that order).

https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-018-3142-6

https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-018-3142-6/tables/8

It's a good point - those numbers were more historical and may not be reflective of today's desires.  I saw that article as well - looked like Oceania was also popular, but it was also a limited study, based on a survey, from one region (Saxony) which is why I didn't include it.  

[rmorelan]

8 hours ago, zoxy said:

Ah, but that way you can flex on critics and say: "I have 22 letters after my name, I'm not an idiot."

Of course, doing so may eventually exile you to Mississippi. Proceed at your own discretion.

Excuse me - it's 25 letters thank you very much.

(I am not that much fun at parties )