Jump to content
Premed 101 Forums

Queensland vs. SABA? i.e. Australia vs. Caribbean.


Recommended Posts

I am wondering if Canadian University of Queensland graduates have been successful in attaining residencies in Canada (particularly Quebec) and if this would be a better path to take as compared to SABA - the latter did have some good matches this year...

Anyone's comments are much appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps you are right - I am subject to the same, perhaps unsubstantiated, bias at times. However, in the end, who cares about biases and whether or not your diploma came from a 'diploma mill' as you said. The point is being able to practice in Canada (and/or the U.S.) - if the top 4 Caribbean schools prepare you for the licensing exams better than Australia and get you doing your clinical years in the U.S., perhaps that is the place to go if you want to get back to Canada or the U.S.

However this bias against the Caribbean could be substantiated - Australia is a commonwealth country and I would think there should be some understanding between these countries - However, getting back to Canada seems to be unreasonably hard on all fronts. Perhaps you just have to get great marks on your exams and do electives here; in this reality all IMG's are considered equal - Caribbean/Western European/Australian IMG's being of course 'more equal' than the others.

Knowing the difference in numbers of Australian trained vs. Caribbean trained graduates gaining residency spots in Canada would be helpful to know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps you are right - I am subject to the same, perhaps unsubstantiated, bias at times. However, in the end, who cares about biases and whether or not your diploma came from a 'diploma mill' as you said. The point is being able to practice in Canada (and/or the U.S.) - if the top 4 Caribbean schools prepare you for the licensing exams better than Australia and get you doing your clinical years in the U.S., perhaps that is the place to go if you want to get back to Canada or the U.S.

However this bias against the Caribbean could be substantiated - Australia is a commonwealth country and I would think there should be some understanding between these countries - However, getting back to Canada seems to be unreasonably hard on all fronts. Perhaps you just have to get great marks on your exams and do electives here; in this reality all IMG's are considered equal - Caribbean/Western European/Australian IMG's being of course 'more equal' than the others.

Knowing the difference in numbers of Australian trained vs. Caribbean trained graduates gaining residency spots in Canada would be helpful to know.

 

Coming back to Canada is hard for all IMGs and even tough for graduates of US schools.

There is no doubt that some Caribbeean grads match in competitive programs in the States and few of them match in Canada but those are the exceptions and not the rule. Do not forget that you are not an american citizen and if for some reason you don't end up matching in the states you'll be drowning in debt with nowhere to go. If you are an Australian graduate at least you could stay in Australia and get trained there. In most of the cases Australian training is equivalent to Canadian one.

A good board score and 3 electives in decent programs in the states (something you can do as a student in Australia and not as a Caribbean student) are as good as two years of training in the States as you will be doing most of those electives in non ACGME accredited programs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Redlan,

 

Although I would personally favour Australia, I can understand why you may think the Caribbean is a good route as well. I have several friends who went to the Caribbean and matched in the US.

 

In the Caribbean, if you do the work, you'll match to the US - although not likely the competitive programs. Make sure it's one of the top 4 schools. At these places, there is great USMLE prep and good clinical placements in US hospitals during years 3 and 4. SGU seems less like a diploma mill than the others. It has a vet school and premed programs. The campus is quite impressive and many of the profs are very experienced in their fields. I have several very smart friends who attend this school. In fact, many of my friends who attended Canadian medical schools in my view are FAR LESS qualified to be doctors than some of my friends who attended SGU and Ross. It's simply luck of the draw. One of my friends attended SGU and is now a cardiothoracic surgeon. This is rare though and he was absolutely brilliant.

 

Also, the stigma of going to the Caribbean is generally erased once you are in residency. No one cares where you went to med school once you're in residency.

 

As for UQ, I've never seen any of their matching stats in North America. I know that Flinder's grads do very well and many Sydney grads have done well. So, I would assume that UQ grads can do well also. The programs at most Australian medical schools are very similar to one another.

 

Zuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think going to the Caribbean is all roses as some people make it out to be.

 

While we hear enough of the "my friend went to y Caribbean medical school and is now in x competitive specialty", where are statistics like:

 

- %tage of Canadians who start a 4 yr Caribb education and finish in 4 years

- Failure rate

- %tage that aren't allowed to write the USMLE after not performing adequately on the internal test they administer before the Step 1

- Specific match statistics of Canadian Caribb grads, in both US and CaRMS. # that go unmatched

 

etc etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am wondering if Canadian University of Queensland graduates have been successful in attaining residencies in Canada (particularly Quebec) and if this would be a better path to take as compared to SABA - the latter did have some good matches this year...

Anyone's comments are much appreciated.

Funny, as I am debating between the same two schools right now...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey RogerRoger,

 

Great post! That's very much how I think.

 

Just wondering, for Ireland, can't you do specialty training there, then write their board exams which would be recognized in Canada. I thought Ireland would have a path similar to the Australian path you wrote down. I'm not sure though.

 

I'd pick Australia over Ireland any day...better weather, much cheaper, in most cases a shorter course, clinical training is supposed to be better, easier to stay and work in Australia from what I know...

 

Zuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RogerRoger,

 

Another great post! I never new all that. My only worry in going to Oz is the shortage of internship spots in places such as Queensland state. There's been a huge increase in medical school seats at UQ (this is most likely the school I will attend) and I'm not sure if all the internationals will get an internship spot by 2012.

 

I'm guessing for those that don't get an internship spot in Queensland, they'll maybe get one in another state such as Tasmania or maybe Western Australia. I'm not sure about this though...do you know anything about this?

 

Zuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RogerRoger,

 

Are you not concerned about Wollogong's lack of accredidation or is this a non-issue now (sorry, I'm quite late coming to the intl boards)?

 

WRT to coming back to Canada for residency, how would you rank the Oz schools - are certain schools better for that in your opinion?

 

And why would you place UQ last amogst the Oz schools - is it only because it is more difficult to land a residency spot in Oz? Why would this be an issue, unless there was uncertainty about being able to return to Canada for residency, even for FP. (I know that for everything else other than FP and Psych, it's unlikely).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok sorry if this comes off harsh but I have said this 100 times and so has UOW faculty on this board....

 

 

Wollongong is accredited for anything ACADEMIC. I can take the USMLE, MCCEE, and any other medical or academic thing I feel like. I can participate in CaRMS and any place else be it the USA etc. once I get my MBBS.

 

 

It is not accredited for AMERICAN FINANCIAL assistance from the US gov. This again has nothing academic or medical about it... This is because the way our southern neighbours work is that they need two graduating classes in order to get approved.

 

 

People on this board have the hardest time deferentiating the two for some reason which is beyond me. Either way I am grad class number 3. So, I guess I could apply for US loans if I was American in year 4... But alas, lucky me I am Canadian and got my OSAP. So no, I couldn't careless that the USA won't give out loans to American UOWers.

 

So for the last time... please! Wollongong is ACCREDITED for anything relevant to Canada and all things medical worldwide.

 

Lol - sorry man, I should've searched harder. But you didn't answer my other questions!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, you are right to point that out - I'm only thinking I would like to come back to Canada now, b/c I've never been to Oz before. But if I were to spend 4 years there, and I discover that I HAVE to do specialty X (not FP), chances are that Oz shouldn't be that bad, it's almost like Canada anyway.

 

Thanks for the answers man!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Rogerroger,

 

Your post is basically a reflection of my personal thoughts regarding studying medicine out of country. I'm also a Canadian, and if my Canadian prospect school falls through, I'm definitely heading down under.

 

Thanks for your information, I find it quite a helpful portrayl of international medical opportunities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for your informative posts rogerroger

 

 

I received an offer from UQ for 2009, I was hesitant at first to accept but now that I have looked into it, I am convinced it is the best option for me ( as oppose to the carib option :o ...got an interview for Ross, but I don't think I will bother with it).

 

I now have financial concerns. From what I gather I am going to need about $ 240 K to make it through the four years. Tuition is about 40 000 a year, and accommodation expenses range from 8k to 10 k annually, food and other expenses might come up to another 10 k....how do I finance all this :confused: ...So far I know RBC gives 150K...and OSAP gives about 10 k a year...are there other options?

 

 

Secondly, you mentioned becoming an australian resident upon graduation to get an internship right after year 4...sounds tricky... because in the offer I was given it was mentioned that if I do become an australian resident I would lose my spot in the program as an international student. Ofcoarse, no law is set in stone, and if you tell me that you know of someone who has done this successfully, it would be very reassuring for me.

 

Thirdly, I am going to ask this from the Oztrekk guys as well (haven't gotten in touch with them so far) but from what I gather, it is recommended for Canadian IMG's to do some of their electives in Canada in order to establish some contacts for the residency spots they are applying for...do you know if Australian Medschools...like Wollongong or UQ...can arrange this?

 

And lastly, how close would you say are the Canadian and Australian medical school's similar in style...from year 1 to 4?

 

Once again...really appreciate your posts :)...thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thanks for your response rogerroger

 

I just got off the phone with the guys from Oztrekk and feel a bit more relieved to learn more about my situation after the 4th year.

 

You get a permanent residency status in australia on a point by point basis. For example, if you speak english you get 30 points. In total you'd need 120 points to get it. You won't be a doctor in Australia until after you have finished PGY 1 and 2, which is a general residency (not competitive), after which you can apply for residency, and when you opt for specialization (which is where the real competition is at) you will be competing as a permanent resident. Also, from what I was told, almost all international students get their residency for PGY 1 and 2. Although the stats quoted is 66% of international students, it is mainly because students don't chose to do their residency in australia because they get a match somewhere else, or because they are prohibited by their own government's terms. Apparently, NSW has opened up 4 medical school (?) so the competition there might be a bit more than in Queensland or SA where one or two med schools opened up :P ... Also what could happen is that you begin your residency in Australia and if you get matched in Canada for a residency, you could leave your australian residency half way and move to canada :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AFG.MD,

 

I'm in a similar situation as you are in terms of financing the education. My parents won't be able to help me out on that. I phoned RBC and they've told me that if you need more than the 150K, this can be arranged.

 

My only concern right now is that I'll need a cosigner. My parents want me to go to SABA since it's way cheaper...but I haven't even applied there! Also, I've never even considered going there!

 

Zuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Cost

The tuitions alone in 2008 $CDN are about $168K - AUS, $256K - IRE, $87K - SABA.

The air fare from Buffalo to SABA is about $600 return and 8-10 hours

The $AUS and $EURO has strengthened vs. $CDN recently

2. I discussed SABA education experience with a graduate now in residence in Ontario with positive feedback. Success is still up to the individual, not the school!

3. Preparation for USMLE. I read the MCCE is similar to STEP1 and Ontario recognizes USMLE tests as equivalents

4. After 20 months in Saba, core clinical rotations in USA with the option for electives in Canada

5. Large number of Canadian students with > 3.5 GPA in good MCAT scores

 

My reasons;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can still apply to Saba for the January start I believe.

 

Anyone know how long from the time you send in your application you can get an interview, and how long after that you may get an offer?

 

They will advise you when your application is complete then about 3 weeks to review. If you are getting an interview you will receive an email to arrange for a time for them to phone you. Lots of info on ValueMD forum.

 

I must admit that the process dealing with Saba and Oztrek is more "friendly" than with Canadian medical schools.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I think an important issue to consider with the caribbean is the living conditions and safety - this is at least part or a significant cause of the high attrition rates. From other posts, it appears that SGU and Ross have very poor living conditions and can be dangerous as well whereas Saba is quite safe, decent conditions I suppose, but AUC in St. Maarten offers the best overall living experience. So the caribbean ain't a bad choice when you consider that it's cheaper, the clerkships are all done in US hospitals (with elective options in Canada), the curriculum specifically prepares you for USMLE step 1 (which you'll want to take in Ireland and Oz anyway), and it seems to be a better route to match into the US, just in case you HAVE to do surgery or rads or some other competitive residency other than FP/Psych - there's more opportunity in the US so it does make sense that you'd want to keep that option open in case you change your mind about FP/Psych. And if it matters, you get an MD instead of MBBS.

 

On the otherhand, Oz isn't a bad place to live either, so staying in Oz because you want to do surgery and couldn't match back to Canada would be a decent option as well. At the same time, not everyone wants to live in the US and deal with their politics and their healthcare system. So there's many issues to consider.

 

To me, I think that Australia and the Caribbean are the two best options if you want to go abroad, especially if you are coming back to Canada to do FP - it would cost around $300K-$340K in total to attend Ireland and if you're going to be on a FP's average income trying to pay this loan back, then you'll be dealing with the stress of being a FP and going through all that training and schooling, keeping up year after year with continuing eduction and audits and what not, but have the same cash flow as another profession that required less schooling and with less stress. I'd choose Oz over Ireland (in fact, I'd never bother applying) - unless you're parents are very wealthy - still, it makes no sense to attend Ireland over Oz when they're essentially the same, same degree too. I just don't see it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I've recently looked into SABA. It actually seems like a very practical decision. Yes, there is a stigma, but no one actually cares when you do your residency. SABA is cheap, clerkship is done in the US, and the match stats don't look bad at all. Maybe I'm missing something here. What do you guys think?

 

Zuck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've recently looked into SABA. It actually seems like a very practical decision. Yes, there is a stigma, but no one actually cares when you do your residency. SABA is cheap, clerkship is done in the US, and the match stats don't look bad at all. Maybe I'm missing something here. What do you guys think?

 

Zuck

 

Yea, it's good man, SABA is part of the "big four" - apparently, SGU is the most prestigious but to me that's kinda irrelevant. If you're going to come back and do FP/Psyc and even Ob/Gyn, the overseas is overseas.

 

I may be underinformed but from what I know, I don't think that going to SGU would give you an advantage over the other big four schools.

 

Saba is the smallest school and is on the smallest island with the least to do - so if you're planning on just gunning it out with little distraction from both safety issues and partying, Saba is the best choice.

 

But you need to consider that Saba students are without many "luxuries" and I think that they actually have to go to St. Maarten each week for their groceries and other misc things. Overall, AUC seems to be the best choice out of the four. SGU and Ross have more crime problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya xylem, good points. Do you know what the visa issues would be like for Canadians? Since I'm not a US citizen, it may be a problem for residency. I don't think it's a huge issue, but something I have to look at.

 

I think the Caribbean is such an efficient system. The match stats look great and one gets to do their clerkship and residency in the US which seems amazing. Ireland and Oz both don't allow their students to do their clerkship in the US. This makes these routes far less practical I feel. I may be missing something though.

 

I've met some Caribbean doctors doing amazing things. Way too many people waste their time trying to get into Canada and in the end, they could be working as a doctor far quicker had they gone to the Caribbean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya xylem, good points. Do you know what the visa issues would be like for Canadians? Since I'm not a US citizen, it may be a problem for residency. I don't think it's a huge issue, but something I have to look at.

 

I think the Caribbean is such an efficient system. The match stats look great and one gets to do their clerkship and residency in the US which seems amazing. Ireland and Oz both don't allow their students to do their clerkship in the US. This makes these routes far less practical I feel. I may be missing something though.

 

I've met some Caribbean doctors doing amazing things. Way too many people waste their time trying to get into Canada and in the end, they could be working as a doctor far quicker had they gone to the Caribbean.

 

The visa thing is not a problem, as you said yourself, many canadians have done it, so we can too. We just need to get the HB-1 visa when applying for residency in the US - it's a little trickier but many have done it before us, so ti's not a big deal.

 

Oz and Ireland aren't bad routes either man, although clerkships are done there, you can do electives in Canada or the US, however, if you're gonna try and come back to the US and write the USMLE's, you might as well go to the Caribbean where they teach specifically for the USMLE and where your clerkships are done in the US. Plus, you get an MD instead of an MBBS! :D

 

All three routes lead to the same thing though, you can come back to Canada as a Canadian IMG - caribbean is the cheapest route, even cheaper than some US schools.

 

Most people that keep trying for Canadian schools either have an ego issue with the caribbean, or they really want to get into a competitive specialty - and to be realistic, the statistics show that you will most likely end up in FP/Psyc when you go overseas and come back to Canada. But hey, I don't mind that - FP is a great field, there's a shortage, the governments have and will probably continue to implement monetary incentives to attract more people into the field and right now, you can make some really great money as an FP through health networks or soemthing like that. Of course, money isn't everything - so there's also opportunities to get extra training like in Ob/Gyn or Anaesthesia if you get bored of just traditional office FP. There's EM FMed, there's opportunities to get invovled with some novel projects that are out there like disease management programs with pharmacies, etc. Many many. You can become an FP, go to business school for an MBA, go into medical consulting or case management. The sky is the limit for anyone with an MD, including FPs - so yea, caribbean is a great option if Canada isn't working out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...