Queensland vs. SABA? i.e. Australia vs. Caribbean.

[Zuckman]

Ya, I've heard the H1b visa is the way to go. I hope it won't be too hard to get one though. I've heard conflicting opinions on this issue.

 

I think going to Ireland or Oz is a good route too, but maybe not as good as the Caribbean. Ireland and Oz do have great reputations, but the Caribbean offers some other advantages (which I mentioned earlier). Cost is a big issue for me. So Ireland is not possible. Oz will be hard for me as well. SGU, Ross, and AUC are all very expensive. SABA is really the only cheap option. However, I've heard that the cost of living is very very expensive in the Caribbean. This is something that surprised me at first!

 

Zuck

[xylem29]

You guys are aware that many residency programs in the states don't accept the H1B visa right? About 75% of the programs don't accept this visa since 9/11. Apparently the H1b visa is a serious pain in the ass for residency programs to set up so they rather avoid it or favour the J1 over the H1b. If you can get the H1B to work your right it is a better deal as you can stay in the states and pretty much be lined up for citizenship.

 

Yet, if you want to increase your odds I would go J1 as its accepted by 100% of the programs taking IMGs. Then I would apply to work in an underserved area of the US after residency in order to avoid being forced to return to Canada and not being able to practice. After doing your time in an underserved area you can then think about getting back to Canada while still holding down a job.

 

I wouldn't worry about going to an underserved area in the US because you will be doing the same thing in Canada if you come back here for residency. As soon as your an IMG doing time in an underserved area is just reality.

 

I would also be careful assuming the atmosphere in the states will remain friendly for IMGs, especially non-American IMGs by 2013. Apparently DO schools are expected to apply more pressure on the number of residency positions available in the states. Several new DO and MD schools have opened in the states and the wave of new grads is expected to start hitting home by 2013-1015 when many ppl considering being an IMG are to apply for residency. If you review the stats I mentioned earler you will see Canadian IMGs have seen a 3-4%/yr drop over in matching in the US over the last several years. Something to consider...

 

 

 

Xylem, you know that an MBBS = MD. They are exactly the same. In fact in Canada and the US one with an MBBS is legally able to call themselves an MD. So MBBS vs MD is like comparing the spelling of "Color vs Colour".

 

No I know man, lol. It's similar to the arguement of MD vs DO in the states - once you're licensed, you're a physician, period. I know that the MBBS is equivalent to the MD, but I'm not sure if the average joe patient would know, so I'd be anxious about putting Xylem, Family Physician, MBBS, CCFP on my sign. I know, it's stupid to care about this - but are you sure that you can legally call yourself an MD? I know you are legally a physician, but I don't think you can make business cards with Xylem, MD if your degree is actually MBBS. Blame it on my social conditioning - very north americentric of me.

 

Thanks for the info about the grim prospects of the US match, but if it's grim for the caribbeans, then it's grim for those coming from Ireland and Oz right? So all things being equal - b/c the caribbean's clerkships are full on done in the US, it's still better to go there than elsewhere if you want to match into the US.

 

Now, if you want to match back into Canada - does it really make a difference whether you're coming from Ireland, Aus, or the big 4 caribbean? If not, why not choose the cheapest route? If going to the caribbean puts you at a disadvantage compared to Oz/Irish grads, then I can see why you would choose them over the caribbean. If I am going overseas, and this is my very last option after trying for dents, then I'm planning on coming back to canada to do FP. Given that canadians who go overseas all participate in both the US and Canadian match, I figure caribbean would be the best choice.

[xylem29]

Ya, I've heard the H1b visa is the way to go. I hope it won't be too hard to get one though. I've heard conflicting opinions on this issue.

 

I think going to Ireland or Oz is a good route too, but maybe not as good as the Caribbean. Ireland and Oz do have great reputations, but the Caribbean offers some other advantages (which I mentioned earlier). Cost is a big issue for me. So Ireland is not possible. Oz will be hard for me as well. SGU, Ross, and AUC are all very expensive. SABA is really the only cheap option. However, I've heard that the cost of living is very very expensive in the Caribbean. This is something that surprised me at first!

 

Zuck

 

Yea man, don't worry - I calculated everything and the caribbean is still cheapter than Oz by at least $30,000. (Ireland, well, it's outta the picture it's way too expensive).

[Zuckman]

Ya, I think Ross and SGU come to at least as expensive as Oz...at least from my calculations. However, SABA is cheaper.

 

As for the MBBS and MD thing. They are the EXACT same thing. I've worked with doctors that use the MD even though they graduated with an MBBS in their home country. It's totally legal because they are the same degree.

 

DO is NOT the same as an MD. It's different. Both are good though.

 

Zuck

[bwbl]

Not only did RCSI Canadian students match 100% in Canada, so did University College Cork. All those who wanted to come back to Canada right after graduation matched in Canada. These matches include family med at U of T, internal at McGill and somebody even got into ortho in one of the Ontario schools (I forgot which one)! If this is any indication, it seems that Canada is more and more willing to consider and take in Canadians trained in Ireland (and probably Oz too).

[xylem29]

No you clearly don't know, your comments reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of the MBBS, MD and DO degrees. It is NOT like the MD vs DO debate. It is nothing even close. The MBBS is legally a MD. You can legally tell your patients in North America that you are an MD if you hold an MBBS. They are direct equivalents. This is not so with the DO degree. A DO is by definition a DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY to medicine. If you want to go Caribbean knock yourself out, but don't dwell on the MBBS vs MD factor because it doesn’t exist in reality.

 

I do know man - I said it was similar, not the same as the DO debate. Didn't I say the MBBS is the equivalent of the MD? I just didn't know that you could hold the MD title, even though you were granted the MBBS title, that's all.

 

 

 

 

 

Well it is the same if you want to do residency in the US. But here is the big clincher. If you go to Australia then you can gain residency training in more specialities than just FM within Australia. This residency training is recognized by Canada... So if you want more specialization options Australia owns Ireland and the Caribbean.

 

Very good point, and this is somethign that should be considered.

 

 

 

Hell yes it matters. The WHOLE Canadian class of RCSI matched in Canada this year. What Caribbean school can claim that? Canada historically is friendlier to Australian and Irish graduates. Also CAPER hints that there are significant differences in MCCEE scores between the Caribbean and Australian/Irish schools.

 

That's another important fact to consider - but you also have to remember that the caribbean admissions standards are much lower, whereas the Irish and Oz schools probably select students that inherently have a good chance of matching back. I think before you can start to say that there are major differences in education, you need to consider the differenes in student ability first.

 

I think you should pursue your dreams. Sure the Caribbean can get you there. But you are fooling yourself if you think degrees from Saba or Granada etc. are equivalents to Australian or Irish degrees. There is most definitely a greater risk factor involved if one obtains a degree from the Caribbean.

 

I still personally feel that the risk has to do with the student - I really do not see how I would be receiving an inferior education in the caribbean when their curriculum is identical to any US school. I think you need to think about this a little more man, b/c you're coming off as someone who thinks the caribbean is some inferior path compared to the other two alternatives when it's simply not true, they just admit students who shouldn't have been admitted, that's all.

 

Once you go through the entire process of writing the licensing exams, the clerkships, the training, the match process and residency - then yes, the degrees from the caribbean are equivalent to the degrees from Ireland/Oz. This is what I think, and I know you feel this way too.

 

I think someone has to give us definitive proof that PDs disciminate between Irish, Oz, and Caribbean grads - until then, I don't see any difference in the three paths other than cost, more flexibility in specialty choice and citizenship wrt to Oz, and lifestyle.

[Zuckman]

Xylem,

 

I agree with your points. Also, SABA is just sooo much cheaper! It is very tempting to go to SABA!

 

Zuck

[Zuckman]

Yes, the Irish stats were not that high in the past. Now, they seem very high. The MCAT requirements have gone up, as well as the gpa. This is the same for Sydney Med and Flinders. There are very competitive people going here.

 

Zuck

[xylem29]

You might want to dig up the match lists which are available from some of these schools. RCSI, UCC, Flinders, UQ etc are at or near 100%. Five years ago the MCAT/GPA required for Ireland was at Caribbean levels. Just check out the archives of Premed101 from around 2003... That is the clincher in my opinion. Based on this I have a strong hunch the students are not radically different academically between the different locations.

 

Now please don't get me wrong, I mean no disrespect. I am only trying to present the information I learned while I was also considering going abroad for meds.

 

Best of luck with Saba! Keep us posted!

 

 

Hmm...that is pretty interesting info there.

[canabb]

i was wondering if SABA and QU had programs for students whom wish to achieve a MD degree, straight out of highschool? if yes, how many years are they? and are they recognized in canada? I am a canadian citizen and a graduate from a canadian highschool who has a dream of being a doctor. i currently got accepted to the University of British Columbia but i want to be a doctor as soon as possible and do not wish to do the 4yr undergraduate if i plan on going to the caribbean/QU anyways. thank you.

[ploughboy]

i want to be a doctor as soon as possible and do not wish to do the 4yr undergraduate

 

Why?

 

This is not a flame, but an honest question: Why?

 

Medicine is always going to be there. When you're 80 years old, it won't matter if you were a physician for 50 years or only for 40 years. Don't stampede into medicine thinking that it's the only career in the world. Take a few years now to enjoy _not_ being a physician, especially since matriculating at a non-Canadian school will require you to jump through all sorts of hoops later in your career.

[stefanci]

You might want to dig up the match lists which are available from some of these schools. RCSI, UCC, Flinders, UQ etc are at or near 100%. Five years ago the MCAT/GPA required for Ireland was at Caribbean levels. Just check out the archives of Premed101 from around 2003... That is the clincher in my opinion. Based on this I have a strong hunch the students are not radically different academically between the different locations.

 

Now please don't get me wrong, I mean no disrespect. I am only trying to present the information I learned while I was also considering going abroad for meds.

 

Best of luck with Saba! Keep us posted!

 

So whats the current GPA/MCAT that you found???

[dott]

I think you need to think about this a little more man, b/c you're coming off as someone who thinks the caribbean is some inferior path compared to the other two alternatives when it's simply not true, they just admit students who shouldn't have been admitted, that's all.

 

Interesting. I seem to have stumbled upon this discussion rather late, but I agree with rogerroger and perhaps you should think about this a little more. The standards in the Caribbean schools are not up to scratch with Australian and Irish medical schools. A quick and dirty example: there exists an updated list of the top life science schools in the world. Australian medical schools rank consistenly within the top 30, sprinkled in nicely amongst some very reputable North American schools. There is no trace of a Caribbean medical school to be found there. I think your last sentence says it all ("they just admit students who shouldn't have been admitted, that's all") in terms of highlighting the inferiority of Caribbean schools.

 

Once you go through the entire process of writing the licensing exams, the clerkships, the training, the match process and residency - then yes, the degrees from the caribbean are equivalent to the degrees from Ireland/Oz. This is what I think, and I know you feel this way too.

 

I agree that the process of licensing and matching is the same for all IMGs, but please answer me this -- how hard are those exams going to be for Caribbean medical students in comparison to Oz/Irish students? Compare the rigours of the medical school and its curriculum and you will have your answer. You can follow the same path and sit the same exam but if you score poorly then this might be indicative of: a) low intellect, poor medical training. Right!

 

I think someone has to give us definitive proof that PDs disciminate between Irish, Oz, and Caribbean grads - until then, I don't see any difference in the three paths other than cost, more flexibility in specialty choice and citizenship wrt to Oz, and lifestyle.

 

You are already quite convinced, so I won't further explain that there does seem to exist discrimination between Caribbean grads VS Oz/Irish grads. Anyhow, please update re: the status of your decision to attend/not attend a Caribbean medical school. I am curious to know what it is like there. Cheers.

[xylem29]

Interesting. I seem to have stumbled upon this discussion rather late, but I agree with rogerroger and perhaps you should think about this a little more. The standards in the Caribbean schools are not up to scratch with Australian and Irish medical schools. A quick and dirty example: there exists an updated list of the top life science schools in the world. Australian medical schools rank consistenly within the top 30, sprinkled in nicely amongst some very reputable North American schools. There is no trace of a Caribbean medical school to be found there. I think your last sentence says it all ("they just admit students who shouldn't have been admitted, that's all") in terms of highlighting the inferiority of Caribbean schools.

 

 

 

I agree that the process of licensing and matching is the same for all IMGs, but please answer me this -- how hard are those exams going to be for Caribbean medical students in comparison to Oz/Irish students? Compare the rigours of the medical school and its curriculum and you will have your answer. You can follow the same path and sit the same exam but if you score poorly then this might be indicative of: a) low intellect, poor medical training. Right!

 

 

 

You are already quite convinced, so I won't further explain that there does seem to exist discrimination between Caribbean grads VS Oz/Irish grads. Anyhow, please update re: the status of your decision to attend/not attend a Caribbean medical school. I am curious to know what it is like there. Cheers.

 

Everything I said was with respect to someone wishing to match into FM in Canada, with no preference for program.

 

The Caribbean grads form a big part of the US medical system and when you visit any of the big 3 school's websites, they've all got students who score 250+ on Step 1. By admitting many unqualified students, the schools' simply have a higher attrition rate. Since clerkships are done in US hospitals along-side US students, you take the same exams and receive the same training as they do in years 3 and 4.

 

The school's follow the US curriculum - there's little difference. Thus why many drop out b/c they simply can't handle the medical school workload and information. I still feel that any differences in abilities are due to inherent differences in the students.

 

The stigma/preference of PDs on the other hand - I concede exists (probably). So if you have a particular specialty in mind, and a particular city, then Oz/Ireland is a better option.

[dott]

I didn't go the Caribbean in the end.

 

I see. May I ask why? What are you doing now? What are your plans? I'm just curious, because I've asked myself these questoins so many times before.